Spell Turning/Spell Deflection ignored by Breach

[gatperdut]

On a full SCS install, I noticed that Conster (the Firkraag mage) could be Breached even if he had Spell Deflection up after his pre-buffs kicked in.

Tried the same with my own mages, their Stone Skin went down regardless of Spell Deflection/Spell Turning.

Thinking it might be an interaction with another mod (though none modifies the spell system besides SCS), I did a clean, SCS-only install with exclusively the following, where I think the important bit is "Install all spell tweaks".

// Log of Currently Installed WeiDU Mods
// The top of the file is the 'oldest' mod
// ~TP2_File~ #language_number #component_number // [Subcomponent Name -> ] Component Name [ : Version]
~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #1500 // Include arcane spells from Icewind Dale: Enhanced Edition: 35.4
~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #1510 // Include divine spells from Icewind Dale: Enhanced Edition: 35.4
~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #1520 // Include bard songs from Icewind Dale: Enhanced Edition: 35.4
~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #2000 // Install all spell tweaks (if you don't select this, you will be given a chance to choose by category): 35.4
~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #2500 // Add 9 new arcane spells: 35.4
~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #2510 // Add 6 new divine spells (some borrowed from Divine Remix): 35.4
~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #2520 // Revised elementals and elemental summoning: 35.4

I could still reproduce the behavior afterwards.

Edited December 23, 2023 by gatperdut

[gatperdut]

To add a bit more of information, in one of my attempts Conster had MGoI, Spell Shield and Spell Deflection.

FIrst Spell Thrust took Spell Shield down. As expected, I assume, since Spell Shield is the "outermost" layer of protection, so Spell Deflection doesn't come into play.

Second Spell Thrust took MGoI down. Shouldn't it have been stopped by Spell Deflection?

Afterwards I could Breach him with his Spell Deflection still active.

Edited December 23, 2023 by gatperdut

[DavidW]

Yeah, that certainly looks broken. I'll check it out.

[gatperdut]

Discussing a bit with someone on SCS v30, similar behavior happened, in that higher-level protections don't protect lower-level ones.

For example, Spell Turning doesn't prevent Spell Thrust from taking down MGoI. Adding Spell Trap on top doesn't make any difference, either. 

The exception seems to be Spell Shield, which is always the first/outermost layer. 

This raises the question of whether there is an order in which protections are supposed to be dispelled, like peeling an onion, or if they can be taken down in any order.

[jmerry]

22 minutes ago, gatperdut said:

Discussing a bit with someone on SCS v30, similar behavior happened, in that higher-level protections don't protect lower-level ones.

For example, Spell Turning doesn't prevent Spell Thrust from taking down MGoI. Adding Spell Trap on top doesn't make any difference, either. 

That is not something changed by SCS, in any versions. It's just the way spell protections work. General deflection/turning/trap effects don't block anything with the MAGICATTACK type, which includes all the spell-breakers like Spell Thrust and Secret Word. In vanilla, it also includes Breach - that's what SCS (or, at least, one important component) changes.

On top of that, when you do run a normal spell into those protections? It decrements all of them at once. Stacking multiple layers of deflection and turning effects doesn't get you any more protection than the strongest one alone.

Now, Spell Shield is special. It's one level of deflection, only against the MAGICATTACK type. And with SCS, also against the new type that Breach gets. So that genuinely does provide an extra layer, eating one spell-breaker. So against an enemy with Spell Shield, you want to throw one cheap spell-breaker at them first. Don't open with that Spellstrike when you see a Spell Shield in the log - use it second instead.

35 minutes ago, gatperdut said:

This raises the question of whether there is an order in which protections are supposed to be dispelled, like peeling an onion, or if they can be taken down in any order.

Not really. You take down Spell Shield first, then you throw spell-breakers at the problem until there isn't anything left, then you breach. Order really doesn't matter in that intermediate stage; the only case of a protection blocking a spell you might use here is that Globe of Invulnerability (not the Minor version) blocks Spell Thrust. And then you repeat whatever's needed when the enemy mage re-ups some of their protections. That's the standard paradigm with SCS.

Variations may apply. If you have a level advantage, you might aim to take down their combat protections with a dispel instead of a Breach - in which case most of the spell protections don't matter, and you can just throw out that Remove Magic first thing unless they're one of the few enemies that use abjuration immunity. Or use Spell Thrust to take down that immunity even if they still have higher-level protections up. If you're planning on killing them with AoE fire spells, all you care about taking down is their fire protection spell, and that's not something they'll ever recast once it's gone. If you're a particularly arcane-heavy party, you might task a mage with casting True Sight to deal with the enemy's invisibility instead of leaving that one to a thief or cleric.

[gatperdut]

Thanks for the explanation jmerry, that was very clear.

The only real issue then is Breach going through Spell Turning/Deflection. 

 

[gatperdut]

Oh, and another one: Breach bypasses Minor Spell Deflection, which should stop it because it affects up to 7th level spells. 

Minor Spell Turning is bypassed and that is correct, from my understanding, because it affects up to 4th level spells. 

Edited December 24, 2023 by gatperdut

[DavidW]

Can reproduce; fixed (well, reverted to an earlier method since I can't get the current one to work) locally; will be in SCS 35.5 and ToF beta 3. (But since it's Christmas Eve, don't hold your breath for either.)

Hotfix: open stratagems/spell/modify_breach.tpa in notepad or similar. Find the line that says ACTION_IF 1 BEGIN, change it to ACTION_IF 0 BEGIN.

[gatperdut]

Cheers DavidW, have a nice evening

[gatperdut]

Please excuse me if I'm going too much into the details, but I'm trying to use these tests to get a good grasp of the system. I'd love a rebuttal of my reasoning against:

Quote

Stacking multiple layers of deflection and turning effects doesn't get you any more protection than the strongest one alone.

I'd argue that's not completely true for the purposes of Breach. Say that a mage has the following up, ordered by level:

* Minor Spell Deflection (Lv 3)

* Globe of Invulnerability (Lv 6)

* Spell Turning (Lv 7)

The mage cannot be Breached until all of them except Globe of Invulnerability are gone. Spell Thrust (which would get rid of Minor Spell Deflection) is not an option while Globe of Invulnerability is up, so in this case you are forced you to follow a certain order because Secret Word always works from highest levels to lowest:

(1) Secret Word against Spell Turning,

(2) Secret Word against Globe of Invulnerability, and

(3) Spell Thrust against Minor Spell Deflection.

(4) Finally, Breach.

However, if you add Spell Deflection (Lv 6) into the mix, there's a 50% chance step 2's Secret Word will dispel it instead of the of Globe of Invulnerability, forcing you to repeat the step, and buying an extra round for the caster (because for protections of equal level, which one gets dispelled is determined randomly). Would that be correct?

[jmerry]

Your reasoning is operating on a completely different axis than my thought was. You're looking at how many spell-breakers it takes to bring the defense down, in which case every spell is another layer of protection unless you use something like Spell Thrust or Spellstrike that can take down multiple protections at once.

My claim was about how many normal spells it takes to burn through the defenses. Four levels of deflection from Minor Spell Deflection, ten from Spell Deflection - if I toss a Polymorph Other (level 4) at that, the MSD is exhausted and the SD is down to six levels left.

As for how turning and deflection effects interact, if both are present ... I'm not actually sure. Haven't tested that. Wait - I can test it right now. Text character 1 casts Minor Spell Turning (up to level 4, 4 total levels of turning) and Spell Deflection (up to level 9, 10 total levels of deflection). Test character 2 casts Spirit Armor at test character 1. Result: test character 2 is now buffed by Spirit Armor, and the graphics and portrait icon for Minor Spell Turning are gone. Follow up with Improved Haste ... Spell Ineffective. And the Spell Deflection graphics are still there. Add another Spirit Armor - ineffective, and that exhausts the Spell Deflection.

OK. Spell deflection and spell turning are separate layers, which do effectively add to each other in protecting against normal spells. Also of note is how these interact with a globe of invulnerability; if I load the test character up with a Globe of Invulnerability as well and repeatedly cast Spirit Armor at it, the first one gets reflected onto the caster and exhausts the Minor Spell Turning, the next three exhaust the Spell Deflection, and any after that do nothing because of the globe. Turning applies before deflection, which applies before blanket immunity.

[gatperdut]

I understood your meaning but I'm afraid I went on a bit of a tangent

It's interesting and satisfying to know how it works in detail, thank you for going through the tests. Admittedly, though, I believe I might have burned through the Deflection charges just a few times, specially at low levels when Spell Thrust is not available (Nimbul comes to mind) and definitely never through the Turning charges.

I think in a few days I'll put in practice that "trick" I mentioned above and see if it's worth the trouble. In the end it's just a 50% chance of a free round which doesn't sound too impressive the more I think about it. 

And maybe also play a bit with Turning on both casters and report what I find if only for completeness' sake, but I recall the wiki mentioning it'd just end up affecting whoever ran out of charges first. Though, off the top of my head, if going with ST againt someone with only MST, I can imagine it'd be a way to spare a Spell Thrust by expending a single Magic Missile or Chromatic Orb. Heh, if that actually works it'd be nasty from SCS' side to do that, if only for the "gotcha". 

Edited December 25, 2023 by gatperdut

[jmerry]

Reflecting between multiple characters with turning effects is dependent on game version, and specifically changed in patch 2.6. As of 2.6, a given spell can only reflect twice; if a (vanilla) elder orb casts Minor Spell Turning and then uses a ray against your character with the Shield of Balduran, that ray will reflect off the shield, reflect off the MST (and probably exhaust it), then return to hit its target despite them having the shield.

So, in your example, if playing on (EE) version 2.6, you'd deplete both your and the opponent's Spell Turning effects a bit, and your Chromatic Orb would hit them after the two bounces. Unless they had another defense like a deflection or globe.

Edited December 25, 2023 by jmerry