[35.6] +4 weapons and lvl. 4 spells

[gatperdut]

The +4 or better to-hit weapons requirement seems to not be working properly. 

I tested with Frostreaver, Stonefire, Lilarcor and Blackblood, all of which are +3 weapons, against the Balrog-like Balor in the Underdark (immune to +3 or lesser) and Aerie with Mantle (protected against +3 or lesser). The attacks went through without problem. 

 

Another issue I found is lich creatures (immune to 5th lvl spells and lower except Breach) are susceptible to Secret Word, which is a 4th level spell. Tested with the Alhoon in the Athkatla sewers and the Underdark lich from the trapped souls Sphere. Spell Thrust, in contrast, does nothing to them; I remember a discussion I read a while ago where it was chalked up to something called "spell power", but I have no idea what that might be. 

WeiDU (1).log

[gatperdut]

Nope, Spell Thrust does affect Alchra Diagott (Sphere lich): it removes its Spell Shield. 

Edited January 27 by gatperdut

[jmerry]

Balors are vulnerable to +3 weapons. Immunity to +3 weapons is very rare in the game; it only happens for a very few enemies or as a short-duration spell. Now, that Mantle thing might be something ... but do note that the vanilla version of Mantle doesn't block +3 weapons either. That's a specific tweak in SCS, and it's possible that wasn't part of your install.

Now, on liches and spell attacks...

Spell Thrust, while it's a level 3 spell by memorization, hits as a level 4 spell. That lets it go over and remove Minor Globe of Invulnerability, for example. And liches, which still have blanket immunity to level 4 and below spells even after the tweak, are fully immune to it.

Secret Word, while it's a level 4 spell by memorization, hits as a level 5 spell. Post-tweak liches no longer have blanket immunity to level 5 spells, and instead have specific immunity to the various level 5 attack spells. Secret Word is not on the list of spells that this immunity applies to. Which makes sense in a way; you're not really targeting the lich itself, but instead the magic around it.

Now, about that lich/Spell Thrust/Spell Shield interaction ... deflection effects such as Spell Shield are "outside" immunity effects such as the lich's innate defenses. So you throw the spell, and the first defense that gets in the way is that one level of deflection from Spell Shield. That absorbs the Spell Thrust and is used up. Spell Thrust can break a Spell Shield even if the target is immune to Spell Thrust. That's just the way the system works.

[gatperdut]

Alright, understood the part about the spells. I find it odd, though, that Spell Thrust and Secret Word are treated differently, while their concept is strikingly similar - both act against the magic around their target.

As for the Balor, I'm pretty sure the one I'm referring to is a special one, immune to +3 or lesser. I checked it specifically with the radar tool and it stated "Requires +4 weapons to hit".

[jmerry]

It's a unique CRE (because its death matters), but I've never seen it be immune to +3 weapons. And from a game design standpoint, it shouldn't be. That balor is on the critical path, and +4 weapons are exceedingly rare in SoA. You can pick up a few in the Ust Natha sequence, but that's after that balor. Before ... there's only the +4 staff in Ribald's shop. Or a couple of options that drop from optional boss encounters you aren't expected to have done. Or Watcher's Keep, if playing a game that includes ToB.

If that balor requires +4 weapons to hit in your setup, some mod is doing funky things. And it's not any mod I'd want.

[gatperdut]

I don't think any other mod in my weidu.log besides SCS changes its immunity from +3 to +4. I'm sort of certain, though, that this is not a new thing - I don't vary my installed mods much and I've seen the +4 requirement before

[jmerry]

Well, SCS certainly doesn't make that change. And your test show that the balor isn't actually immune to +3 weapons ... maybe the radar tool is lying to you? Because at this point, that's the element that doesn't fit the others.

[gatperdut]

I went to Nearinfinity and the ring it has equipped agrees with you, from what I could understand of the effects list; it gives immunity to +1 and +2, but not +3.

So all that's left is the Mantle issue. 

[DavidW]

6 hours ago, jmerry said:

Secret Word, while it's a level 4 spell by memorization, hits as a level 5 spell. Post-tweak liches no longer have blanket immunity to level 5 spells, and instead have specific immunity to the various level 5 attack spells. Secret Word is not on the list of spells that this immunity applies to. Which makes sense in a way; you're not really targeting the lich itself, but instead the magic around it.

It's unintentional, though.

[DavidW]

55 minutes ago, gatperdut said:

So all that's left is the Mantle issue.

Can reproduce, fixed locally. Hotfix: edit stratagems/spell/mantle.tpa, and replace 'enchantment_level=2' near the bottom with 'enchantment_level=3'.

[gatperdut]

Hey, sorry to necromance this a bit - I wanted to ask if the fix addresses not only the Mantle, but also Liches being affected by Secret Word. 

Edited February 9 by gatperdut

[DavidW]

IIRC, yes.