Reflections - Let's Make a Mod for EET

[megrimlock]

I hope you two can sit down and collaborate on the ToB mod as you seem to be not far apart and it is an exciting prospect.

[subtledoctor]

15 hours ago, megrimlock said:

I hope you two can sit down and collaborate on the ToB mod as you seem to be not far apart and it is an exciting prospect.

I still haven't quite worked out what exactly that would look like. Whereas, in my head I have an 85% fully fleshed-out idea to rewrite SoD. It is a complete concept that I could start working on today, while anything about ToB is still very much in the concept stage. So I feel like I should get the SoD thing done first... maybe?

18 hours ago, morpheus562 said:

Dorn's character arc would not be impacted by repurposing his quest and memory serves it is the same for Hexxat. Rasaad would probably require a rewrite of his BG2 quest to defeat Algoroth at the end so he can have his closure. I have not completed Neera's ToB quest, so I do not know how that would need to be adjusted for her character arc.

I have never done any of the Beamdog companion quests. Except for Rasaad's SoA quest, which I basically played as a 5-man party because I hate monks and hate Rasaad. That one was quite aggravating - the way it is written assumes you played Rasaad's BG1 quest and know who Alorgoth etc. are... I had met Rasaad for the first time in SoA and the quest had no facility to acknowledge that and contrive to give me some exposition. One of the few times I will agree with Beamdog's critics about "bad writing" - that was indeed quite bad writing.

My current game is in SoA and I am planning to do Neera's quest. (I suppose I could do Hexxat's too, will need a thief.) But... since I made this install, I have finished this mod, and the Crucible and Call of the Lost Goddess are released or soon to be released. I feel the need to reinstall!

OTOH I still have at least two components I want to add to this mod, and then there is the bigger SoD rewrite. And I need to tune up BP-in-BG, and maybe the IWD stuff too... so maybe I keep playing this game, and keeping making more mods, so even more will be available to install when I finally do a reinstall.

(EDIT - and, not gonna lie, there is a little tiny part of the back of my brain that's like, "I wonder if we could recreate Fallout 1 in the BGEE engine?") 

Edited May 8 by subtledoctor

[megrimlock]

5 hours ago, subtledoctor said:

I still haven't quite worked out what exactly that would look like. Whereas, in my head I have an 85% fully fleshed-out idea to rewrite SoD. It is a complete concept that I could start working on today, while anything about ToB is still very much in the concept stage. So I feel like I should get the SoD thing done first... maybe?

Oh, I'm confused then. I thought Reflections was partly intended to allow SoD to be skipped so the SoD assets could be re-purposed for ToB. If you're re-writing SoD, is that intended to be compatible with Reflections?

[subtledoctor]

2 hours ago, megrimlock said:

thought Reflections was partly intended to allow SoD to be skipped so the SoD assets could be re-purposed for ToB.

In part. But not with a concrete plan in place for what to do with those repurposed resources. We’re still in the very early brainstorming phase. Maybe it will never happen! I have at least tried create circumstances so that it can happen… but no guarantees. This stuff is hard, and a ToB mod would be a TON of work. By contrast, SoD is fairly small, and my plan to rewrite it doesn’t actually require many changes (maybe about the same amount of work as I’ve already done here).

In a perfect world we could have both! Play EET through the end of BG1, and then either 1) skip SoD, and eventually get a modified version of ToB; or 2) play an improved version of SoD, and then eventually play the vanilla version of ToB.  That would be cool! But would require a lot of effort. 

Edited May 8 by subtledoctor

[morpheus562]

The way I would envision a SoD rewrite would be to remove Caelar entirely and instead focus on a regional Deathstalker monitoring the local Bhaalspawn. SoD graciously provided us with an awesome temple of Bhaal to use. The Deathstalker would report to Amelyssan and it would provide an introduction to the series big bad while focusing on how they are trying to prep respective areas for when the prophecy comes to fruition.

Solely my two cents that can be ignored.

Edited May 8 by morpheus562

[megrimlock]

Please don't think I'm stomping my feet demanding the ToB mod gets done, I can appreciate even from my standpoint of relative ignorance that it would be a huge endeavour, and we the players are not entitled to a damn thing when it comes to modding. I'm just enthused about the idea, is all.

[subtledoctor]

Dammit, the forum ate my response. The gist was, I don't think it's necessary to remove Caelar Argent. Instead I would attempt to create that classic unicorn (which SoD itself kind of tried to create but I think did not succeed): the Lawful Good villain.

Up to the events of BG1, I don't think we can assume anyone really knows or cares about Alaundo's Bhaalspawn prophecy. It is known only by a few cranks and sages, many of them squirreled away in Candlekeep. Even if you know about it, it's not (subjectively) clear how accurate Alaundo really is. And even if you believe the prophecy, there is no indication of when it might ever happen. Sarevok is the first indication that this is a real thing that presents real danger. He is the spark that ignites the flame of belief and fear. Caelar is rich, educated, powerful, and righteous. She takes this seriously, and overreacts. It is a prophecy - fated to be! You can't hope to overcome it by being reactive and trying to save the day, as Charname does with Sarevok. D&D-style adventuring simply won't cut it. To steer the course of fate away from a prophecy like this, you need to go big. So Caelar decides, the solution is to take control of the Sword Coast herself, instituting a regime that is just, and lawful, and absolute. And with absolute power she can stamp out chaos completely.

Which obviously doesn't go over well with those currently in power in Baldur's gate and Waterdeep! So, the Coalition moves against Caelar's Crusade. There is a fear that she might try to enlist the ba'atezu in Avernus to help her, as quite literally the lesser of two evils. (This is actually a reasonable fear, given the lord of Avernus is Zariel, a former solar who decided to ally herself with the ba'atezu to fight against the tanar'ri. Caelar herself is the descendant of a solar; why wouldn't Zariel aid Caelar's mission?)

This also solves the biggest plot problem in SoD: once the Coalition takes Dragonspear Castle, all they need to to is tell Charname "don't go to the basement!" Problem solved, the portal never opens. Here, there is a fear that Caelar will open the portal and so Charname has a compelling reason to follow her and stop her. Probably the whole thing about a drop of a Bhaalspawn's blood opening the portal needs to be changed. I think the conceit will be, Caelar will be told by Hephernaan that the portal can remain closed, but will trap Bhaalspawn. So part of Caelar's plan and reason for being based at Dragonspear is to use the portal to lure Bhaalspawn and trap them in Avernus, away from the Sword Coast, while in fact keeping the portal shut. Of course, she has been lied to, and Hephernaan in fact wants to get Caelar and a Bhaalspawn there, using both of their blood along with his own - celestial, fiendish, and divine - to empower an artifact that can open the portal. Hephernaan then runs to give the artifact to Belhifet, and Caelar and Charname must pursue it together in order to re-seal the portal.

Something like that, anyway.

The amount of changes necessary to rewrite it this way is surprisingly small.

• The conversation at the broken bridge
• The innkeeper's dialogue at the Coast Way Crossing
• The parley
• The confrontation with Hephernaan
• The cut scene in the Dragonspear basement
• The scene with Belhifet

That's...basically it.

Don't get me wrong, there are other problems as well. The idea that the Hero of Baldur's Gate can surreptitiously infiltrate fortified Crusader encampments on three separate occasions is just... insane. Four times, kind of, maybe, depending on how the Coast Way Crossing plays out! Totally insane. Might be worth adding something like a magic item that changes your appearance for those scenes. Or, honestly, just cut them altogether.

And the Bhaal temple, while a great dungeon, is a very unfocused encounter. Who are the bad guys are there? Bhaalites? An illithid? What narrative purpose is served by this? Why are there named enemies who I cannot actually meet before they have died to my AoE attacks? Arguably that should be stripped out. Maybe save it for an extra ToB encounter, or an added encounter in BG2. Take a map from IWD or IWD2 or PST, and tack it onto the bugbear cavern.

And what the hell is going on with Kanaglym? I just played through that, and it's like, the necromancer was going to perform a ritual that would turn the Coalition and Crusader armies into a massive legion of undead... you can even throw this fact in Hephernaan's face at the parley scene... but what if you don't stop the necromancer?? It's completely optional; what if you skip it? Do the armies actually start turning into undead? That would be super cool... but I highly doubt it happens. Which cheapens the whole encounter. Frankly the entire mission into the Dragonspear basement probably just shouldn't happen. It's pretty crazy that you are in the castle, right at the portal, and then you leave and it's like "we're besieging them, we can't get in!" Like dude, we just were in.

Anyway. I'm tired of ranting. I can only fix one thing at a time.

Edited May 9 by subtledoctor

[morpheus562]

I'm picking up what you're putting down and look forward to see it. Please feel free to reach out if there is anything in my skill set that I can use to provide assistance.

[subtledoctor]

I am currently looking into making a further component, which would basically strip out the existing Charname-kills-Skie cut scene, and replace it with one that would dovetail into my "Mirror Shard plot." But it is slow going. It is more work than part 8, because Entar Silvershield's murder happened off-screen. Skie's murder is depicted in a series of very elaborate cut scenes and moustache-twirling villain exposition. To fully adapt it would need:

• From the dialogue w/ Sgt. Dazzo, replace BDCUT60.bcs and have it send Charname to a new, custom area that would be a dream-sequence-version of the Silvershield estate
• Replace or rewrite BDCUT60X.bcs and BDCUT60Y.bcs to reenact the Charname-vs.-Skie fight in this new area. I am kind of thinking, instead of having Skie turn into a monster and giving control to the player, maybe keep it in cut-scene mode and have Charname* turn into the Golden Slayer, and brutally cut down Skie. After all, this is not actually Charname, but merely a clone of you. (This is either a dream, or something Charname experiences through some kind of psychic connection, or else a cut scene the player sees but Charname does not. It doesn't really matter.)
• Then replace or rewrite BDCOT60A.bcs, sending Charname to wake up back in Dragonspear Castle
• Rewrite the cut scene where Charname wakes up and Bence approaches; rewrite Bence's dialogue
• Replace or rewrite BDCUT61.bcs having Charname travel directly to the palace and interact with the dukes
• Then this could trigger everything that is already in Part 8, and it would play out the exact same way, eventually sending you to the ambush and BG2.

I am finding this stuff kind of tedious. Writing cut scenes and connecting them via dialogues feels kind of like a digital version of stop-motion animation. It is painstaking.

I suppose I could simply remove the Skie cut scenes, let it happen off-screen like the earlier attack on Entar. That would be a bit of a shame, but WAY easier. Just change the post-Dazzo resting cut scene straight to Bence's wake-up, Bence's dialogue, replace BDCUT61.bcs, and write the palace dialogue. After all, why would the player have any inkling of what Charname's clone is doing hundreds of miles away? Maybe worth doing, and fill in the Skie cut scenes later in an update...?

Also, it occurs to me that it would be cool to add a cut scene to the Coldhearth scrying pool. Something where you could see Charname's clone, but without any context as to what you are looking at. It would be confusing, and not answer any questions (misdirection: "what am I looking at? Is this the future?"), but it would generally support my little clone plot. Worth looking into!