DavidW

This whole "anti-SI:Div" discussion exists almost only because of liches and rakshasas sad immunities imo. If it wasn't for them within SR you already have plenty of options to counter SI:Div+II combo:

a) thief's Detect Illusion

b) wizard's Glitterdust (this one bypasses even SI:Div+SI:Abj)

c) cleric's Invisibility Purge (it's stopped in case of SI:Div+SI:Abj)

d) druid's Faerie Fire (it's more or less a lesser Glitterdust)

You have 4 different classes there! If you add Inquisitor's Dispel Magic (to a lesser extent single class bards and priests) almost any party can handle SI:Div+II.

Most of these solutions are (or, I suppose, should be: I don't know how you've coded them) blocked by Minor Globe (which in turn can't be dropped by single-target antimagic when II is active).

You're right, though Spell Thrust do work against (M)GoI, removing the former and ignoring the latter (thus still dispelling SI even if protected by GoI), because both in vanilla (at least in my vanilla install it looks so) and SR it has 'power' set to 0 (a la Dispel Magic).

Only if it has an area effect (and wasn't the whole point of this discussion to avoid there being one?)

But is Sanctuary really so effective then? What about area-effect magic?

Against a standard AI a first level guaranteed invisibility -spell, for a backstabber/Harm'er, whell yeah.

The discussion is basically about enemy use of Sanctuary, not PC use. And my point is that area of effect magic still works against the Sanctuaried. (I can't recall whether SCS attacks Sanctuaried PCs with it.)

Already clerics are much more powerful than is generally supposed because of Sanctuary--but keep in mind my change was to help the AI Priests be more competitive. The player can easily make do with casting time of 4 for Sanctuary. The "disadvantage" of not being able to help the party while sanctuaried is negligible considering the priest has likely cast the spell to avoid death himself! In any event the problem for DavidW as I understand it was Enemy priests that were not in a party.

Indeed. But is Sanctuary really so effective then? What about area-effect magic?

True Sight

1) perhaps this is not a big deal considering we already have the case of most Abjuration spells bypassing SI:Abj. In this case SI:Div would still protect illusionary buffs (II, MI, Blur, etc.) from TS, but for me it would be one further reason to consider the whole concept behind Spell IMMUNITY a failure

It doesn't bother me, because it's not an effect that works on the protected creature, it's an effect that works on the caster. That is: one is not stripping Invisibility from the protected creature, one is granting the ability to see through invisibility to the caster. (In the same way, Detect Invisibility in PnP would not be blocked by (e.g.) Minor Globe, because it's doing something to the caster, not to the protected creature.)

2) this is only a conceptual issue, and probably a minor one

It doesn't bother me

3) without this tweak you'd have to dispel SI:Div, then II, and finally be able to target the opponent, with this tweak you can ignore the first two steps (though in both cases you can pre-cast TS, thus you miss only one step). Restoring Spell Shield should make up for this.

That's basically my maths. Old framework: you need TS running and then you need to drop SI:Div. New framework: you need TS running and then you need to drop Spell Shield. Overall it's a wash.

4) @David, I'm not sure "Truesight et al wouldn't actually reveal a genuinely invisible creature; it would just make an already-revealed creature targetable"?

Try it and see.

At least this isn't true for the AI imo, because if I'm not wrong "see invivibility by script" opcode is used by many vanilla demons, and they do see an II character even before he/she is partially revealed.

That's exactly my point: the AI (player's or enemy's) can see the enemy, but the player can't.

Just so you know, both Detect Invisibility and Invisibility Purge lasts 5 rounds within SR.

I was thinking about the vanilla versions, which (iirc) have zero duration.

Furthermore, within SR InvPurge is an Abjuration spell as per PnP, not a Divination as in vanilla BG, thus it already bypass SI:Div.

But not Minor Globe.

This whole "anti-SI:Div" discussion exists almost only because of liches and rakshasas sad immunities imo. If it wasn't for them within SR you already have plenty of options to counter SI:Div+II combo:

a) thief's Detect Illusion

b) wizard's Glitterdust (this one bypasses even SI:Div+SI:Abj)

c) cleric's Invisibility Purge (it's stopped in case of SI:Div+SI:Abj)

d) druid's Faerie Fire (it's more or less a lesser Glitterdust)

You have 4 different classes there! If you add Inquisitor's Dispel Magic (to a lesser extent single class bards and priests) almost any party can handle SI:Div+II.

Most of these solutions are (or, I suppose, should be: I don't know how you've coded them) blocked by Minor Globe (which in turn can't be dropped by single-target antimagic when II is active).

Agains liches and rakshasas instead it's a whole different story, not to mention the formers are also immune to cleric/druid's TS, and the latters to wizard's 6th lvl version too (making SI:Div "redundant" for them ).

That's a good point; I ought to bear it in mind in scripting. (Though again, Ardanis's modification of TS still works.)

P.S all of this assuming that a) there's no way I can convince you replacing SI as we previously discussed and/or b) there's no way I can convince you replacing those damn liches/rakshasas immunities with 50% and 75% magic resistance respectively (which is kinda my dream )

I'm really not keen on changing the vanilla spell system, or (even more so!) the vanilla powers of creatures, within SCS except minimally and as an a last resort. To do otherwise obviates the basic design principles behind SCS. (And no, I don't have any detailed logic beyond my own personal intuitions as to why I regard any given change as more minimal than any other - the nearest I can do is "what makes things you already see in the vanilla game have to be changed", though that's highly imperfect.) SR, of course, can do as it wishes with the spells, so this is only relevant insofar as compatibility is concerned.

I'm obviously with Kalindor and Ardanis [re Breach] but it seems like David absolutely needs Breach to work against specific protections thus they have to stay. That being said, Ardanis "justification" to it not affecting "armor spells" may persuade me. In that case Breach will remain more or less unchanged, but it won't affect Fireshields, Blade Barriers, and "armor spells".

That's fine with me, even to the stage of being something I'm amenable to including. (Case in point as far as "what counts as minimal" is concerned.)

True Sight

Perhaps I missed it, but what do you think about adding "invisible detection by script" to an existing divination spell (Ardanis suggested TS)? I personally am not so convinced about it, but it could work for you.

 

I think I'm with you on balance, though it's a neat idea.

But what ill consequences it could create?

 

What I have initially suggested was to make a divination spell (either by altering TS or by introducing another one and swapping names with TS) capable of only detecting-invis-by-script, without any kind of dispelling enemy's illusionary protections. Only caster can target the invisible opponent with spells, not their party.

I'm reconsidering this. (Not least because my latest attempt to make antimagic spells penetrate II doesn't work.) I don't think it would work for any spell only to grant the detect invisibility opcode, because that opcode doesn't actually reveal creatures that are invisible to the player, it just allows them to target II creatures (and, I think, their AI to target invisible creatures). But I think adding it to one or two anti-invisibility spells might be a nice feature, and a neater way around my mage-targetting problem than the never-ideal antimagic AoE. I'd probably add it to Truesight without otherwise altering the spell; I'd also consider adding it (with, say, a 5-round duration - not as something that could be used in prebuffs) to Detect Invisibility. I'd leave it off Oracle and Invisibility Purge, since they're clearly described as instant magic attacks on an enemy's illusions, not as boosts on the caster.

This slightly disadvantages mages relative to the status quo, largely because Truesight can be pre-cast. But I can live with that (especially as I'm going to be able to throw Spell Shield around now).

Two problems:

1) (Vanilla) non-detection won't provide protection. I don't think this bothers me, ultimately: Truesight et al wouldn't actually reveal a genuinely invisible creature; it would just make an already-revealed creature targetable.

2) More seriously, the player can't give attack orders on totally-invisible creatures but the player's AI can. (This is a symptom of the fact that the invisibility detection opcode isn't really designed for PCs.) I think the only way to solve this is to replace See(XYZ) with See(XYZ)!StateCheck(XYZ,STATE_INVISIBLE) in PC scripts. That could be automated, though there'd be a problem if someone installed a new script after the relevant mod. But I think we can live with this.

I suggested that SCS replace SI: Div (immunity to Div) by SI: Div (immunity to X Div spells). No need for AOE anti-magic, since *already existing* large AOE divination spells would bring down SI: Div (X balanced for SCS AI). This slight nerf would allow anti-magic to remain as in vanilla. SR would be free to mod SI to Non-Detection (X depends on a saving throw) or Spell Shield (X=1) without breaking the sense that the two mods are working in the same spell system.

I'm somewhat reluctant to do this, as it's not clear why SI:Div in particular should work this way.

DavidW

Also, elegance can be subjective...

 

It is certainly a matter of taste - a quibble: this is not quite the same thing as being subjective

We're talking about elegance in the sense used in maths or physics, yes?

If so, take it from me: it's subjective. (I speak as someone who works in theoretical physics, and the philosophy of science, professionally.) That's not to say that there aren't often strong consensus views on given issues, though.

... or perhaps I'm misunderstanding. Is this intended as a point in philosophy of aesthetics? I'm fairly unsympathetic to realism as a philosophy of aesthetics (whatever its virtues in ethics), but I can see that an aesthetic realist would want to argue that matters of taste are objective.

(Apologies for wild offtopicness.)

@Amanasleep: Contingency does feel a bit of a bridge too far for priests. I do use Harm and Slay Living, but it's fiddly to use effectively because it's very short range and requires a hit roll.

Personally I wouldn't have a problem with Breach not removing specific protections even if the SCS solution is a "hot-swap." At least there would still have to be a choice between dispelling combat or specific protections since both could not be done simultaneously without utilizing a higher-level spell slot.

I don't take advantage of that anyway, really - SCS isn't intelligent enough to pick on someone because they have both combat and specific protections running.

even leaving aside PnP I don't see how altering many anti-magic spells is more minimalist than altering one spell

If you mean Non-Detection, then altering it doesn't (alone) help, as SI:Div is still out there. So the right comparison is with altering Non-Detection and removing SI.

(not to mention the latter is almost a fix).

I don't really know what "almost a fix" means. (And I don't think there's any evidence that changing N-D is a fix according to the developer-intent definition of fix.)

True, you can see II creatures within BG, but you have text messages everywhere proving that not being able to directly target spells at them is still the intended behaviour as per PnP. How can removing such feature be a minimalist change?

At some level this just becomes a matter of personal opinion: what seems more low-key (in terms of the feel of playing the game, as well as in terms of the in-game lore). I don't have an active justification. (I do have a relatively straightforward in-game justification: just assume that the relevant spells have a small area of effect. Of course this is what I tried to actually do, but we both know it works imperfectly for various reasons.)

CC and Death Ward wouldn't be affected anymore though, do you need Breach to work against them too?

'Fraid so.

PnP Non-detection

Do you really think that adding an AoE to many anti-magic spells is more minimalist than simply fixing Non-detection to work as per PnP?

 

I'm kinda curious about your possible workaround to make II creatures targetable, but on the other hand I'd dare to say that such tweak would be far from minimalist too. There's a reason you cannot directly target II creatures: you cannot see them. I know within BG you can, but within PnP you'd be able to spot them only for a split second when he/she attacks (much like what happens with BG's misleaded characters).

The general point is that minimalism is defined - for me - relative to BG2 itself. I'm not particularly bothered by fidelity or lack of fidelity to PnP. And in BG2 you can see II characters.

Perhaps I missed it, but what do you think about adding "invisible detection by script" to an existing divination spell (Ardanis suggested TS)? I personally am not so convinced about it, but it could work for you.

I think I'm with you on balance, though it's a neat idea.

Breach

One thing I'd personally do anyway (whatever you decide) is to make Fireshields and Blade Barriers not affected by it (it seems right, and it doesn't affect your AI scripts judging by what you said).

I think that's a good idea, sufficiently good that I might consider stealing it. (It does affect my AI scripts a little bit, but I can work around that.)

I think all of us more or less agree that right now a succesfull Breach is a death sentence for any mage (that's why making it not bypass Spell Deflection/Turning was great), as it removes tons of buffs at once (even high level ones).

I don't agree, actually. Of course it's seriously bad news for a wizard to be Breached, but contingencies and sequencers let the wizard get his defences back up quickly and keep attacking.

I suppose you like SI:Abj to stop Breach, am I wrong?

No, you're right.

For example allowing [breach] to make liches vulnerable to normal weapons would almost surely break SCS AI that heavily relies in the trick of "exploiting" such innate feature in combo with PfMW.

Absolutely.

Still, I think that without all of those fancy magical defences game would turn back into original state where warriors were fighting each other and wizards were at first trying to make their warriors chances of win greater and to disable enemy wizard. Meh.

That's not the original state of BG2.

They weren't arogants who were sitting, drinking tea and saying "silly b****, your weapons cannot harm me".

"Indeed, my friends, none of you have any weapon that could hurt me" - Gandalf.

Sanctuary isn't terrible (and I probably underuse it). But the thing is, priests only have about one (at most) really good defensive buff they can put up anyway. They don't have the layered defences available to mages.

 

Maybe we could make a rule that enemy priests always come prebuffed with some of the longest lasting protections, particularly Shield of the Archons, Death Ward, Remove Fear, and Chaotic Commands (maybe even Skeleton Warriors, since they last for hours--I know I'd cast one every morning if I thought there was even the slightest chance I'd meet danger that day!). If their first move was Sanctuary followed by Blade Barrier and Physical Mirror, they could end up pretty well protected when they cast Gate or whatever. I also believe that UnHoly Word doesn't break Sanctuary. In any event, I might suggest that normally prebuffed clerics start with Regeneration active, which could dramatically increase survivability and reduce the necessity for potions (and more importantly, spell actions) during combat.

I use most of these, but ultimately it's still the case that one antimagic attack plus breach takes nearly all of it all down.

... I'm not theorising here: it's an experimental observation that enemy clerics (especially solo ones) go down very quickly in SCS, quicker than I'd like. (Though this isn't disastrous.)

Clerics

I have trouble keeping them alive long enough to use it - more precisely, I have trouble keeping them alive and their spells undisrupted long enough to use it. The long casting times for cleric spells just make things worse. ...

I don't think their spells casting time is the real issue, as they aren't much different from arcane's spells,

My observations are that it matters (again, this is behaviour noted in playthroughs and testing - I'm not theorising). In two ways, in fact: (i) at lower levels, the difference is pretty key: 2 seconds for a wizard's 2nd level attack spell, vs. most of the round for a cleric's; (ii) wizards have certain instant-cast moves (stoneskin, sequencers, contingency) unavailable to clerics.

What about asking A64 if it's possible to make spellcasting uninterruptable? (there's a flag for it in theory, but it's doesn't work) If it's doable, then we could easily re-introduce a more balanced and less random spell failure on hit (as per Wizard Slayer's attack).

Not for me: it's much too radical a change to the BG2 rule system. (And my comments about clerics are meant to illuminate certain aspects of the system, and also to invite suggestions as to how to use them better; they're not a crie de coeur and I don't feel something game-mechanical needs to change to work around this. In practice I'm resigned to not being able to use clerics solo without special arrangements; I can use them effectively as parts of groups.)

PnP Non-detection

Something tells me you don't like "saves" and you prefer things to work as a "scissor, paper, rock game", am I wrong?

Guilty as charged, at least where the antimagic system is concerned. (I'm very unkeen on saves for a spell like Breach, because you end up having to carry silly numbers of them; this is less of an issue with non-detection.) I could try to offer a defences of the scissor-paper-rock debuff system, but ultimately I just see it as quite core to the way BG2 antimagic works, so I don't really want to mess with that within SCS.

Yep, but we're not speaking of antimagic attacks here but divination attacks, and Non-detection isn't a spell protection.

 

If you want something that temporary shields II but goes down in a single hit you could make Non-detection go down against the first divination attack without a save. That would make it a sort of anti-divination version of Spell Shield.

Perhaps it's worth getting the parameters clearer here. Remember that SCS, unlike SR (legitimately) put's a high value on minimalism: I don't want to change the spell system more than I absolutely have to. (I'm in general amenable to incorporating other people's spell systems, but - as discussed before - mage buffing and debuffing is a special case.) The change I've felt forced to make is the AoE for antimagic, which in turn is a workaround for antimagic spells actually allowing targetting of invisible creatures, which was my ideal. At the time I couldn't see how to do it (actually I think now I might, which changes things, but I haven't had a chance to run tests). Other changes have to be measured against that baseline. (As always I'm perfectly happy to try to play nice, e.g. with SR's proposed silent overwrite of SI, where it doesn't mess with my scripts.)

As Ardanis says Pro Energy is a single target spell, are you sure that prioritizing Breach vs Pro Energy is the best thing to do when the other five party members (without counting summons) could still be vulnerable? The same can be said for CC and Death Ward.

Reasonably sure, yes. The balance between debuffing and attacking got tweaked many, many times in SCS testing; where it is now is largely a function of what seems to work in practice rather than of theory. It's doubtless not perfect (especially as the right level of debuffing is very situation-dependent), is probably a bit skewed towards high-level fights where most PCs will be heavily buffed, and could no doubt be refined. But I'm pretty sure I need access to a single-target buff-remover. (In late-game anti-mage fights, in earlier versions I wasn't using Breach enough, with the result that nearly all the party were immune to nearly all the enemy's attacks.)

What about the suggested tweak to make Pierce Magic (which is currently very underused) remove specific protections instead?

Pierce magic in particular is underused, but 6th level spell slots aren't (Death, PMW, Truesight, etc). 5th level is quite a convenient place for the relevant breaching spell to be: I think it makes really quite a big difference to have it at 6th level. I'm also reluctant to have to load up with two different lots of spells where previously I only needed one.

(& yes, I could get around this by using scrolls. But to do that for this one situation seems - to borrow a term from earlier - inelegant, and also to load the PC up with useful antimagic scrolls.)

On exploration of the issue, I'm starting to feel less confident that we really need to weaken Breach. Having said that, if you're really sold on breaking specific protections into Pierce Magic and leaving Breach for combat protections only, I can probably semi-incorporate that into SCS ("semi" because I'd cheat, and hot-swap Breach for Pierce Magic at casting time.) It would cost me two or three blocks, but that's tolerable.

Can you remind me why Breach can't take down (say) 4 defences? Isn't there an opcode that strips one defence of a given type, and if so, can't one just do a shell spell trick and apply 4 copies of the spell?

Well, the original opcode 221 cannot be used to take down only a limited amount of spells, but in theory we might be able to find a workaround if we really think such solution would be better than any other one.

I'm persuaded by Ardanis's objection.

Spell Immunity

I second guest's definition of SI, "an inelegant solution". I have a "controversial", invented spell on one side, and various PnP, cool spells on the other. I know such things are irrelevant for SCS, but they are for SR imo.

Also, elegance can be subjective...

Sanctuary isn't terrible (and I probably underuse it). But the thing is, priests only have about one (at most) really good defensive buff they can put up anyway. They don't have the layered defences available to mages.

Armor-like spells

If you think improving "armor spells" could seriously benefit mage duels I'd be glad to work on it.

I'm not convinced it would make so very much difference. Breach takes most of them down anyway (albeit see the below discussion) and at high levels, GWW and Critical Strike make AC pretty moot.

Well, GWW and CS are ToB things, but you're right, those abilities make AC much less relevant. Anyway even epic fighters should have a bunch of those HLAs not tons, and those few should/can be stopped by Stoneskin, or partially absorbed by Mirror Image. Put an outstanding AC on top of them and even GWW may hit very few times. No?

...maybe. Outstanding really would need to be in the -25 region, and not breachable. Even then, Critical Strike makes it irrelevant. Stoneskin isn't all that critical at high levels because of the easy availability of elemental damage (which fairly reliably disrupts spells even if it doesn't kill quickly).

Clerics

What's your main problem with clerics? Lack of offensive magic power? Because they shouldn't have most of mages problems like AC and hit points even unbuffed.

I'm fine with their offensive power. I have trouble keeping them alive long enough to use it - more precisely, I have trouble keeping them alive and their spells undisrupted long enough to use it. The long casting times for cleric spells just make things worse. (The short casting time is one major reason I use Unholy Blight so much.)With wizards, I can usually guarantee several rounds worth of offensive magic (or at least, make it a major hassle to prevent those several rounds). With clerics, it's difficult to prevent one PC fighter effectively nullifying the cleric after his first attack spell, and thereafter taking him down quite quickly. It's not so much of a problem with groups (the drow clerics do quite well) but there are plenty of BG2 fights involving a cleric as primary enemy (Nyalee's the clearest example) and they're very hard to script interestingly.

PnP Non-detection

Something tells me you don't like "saves" and you prefer things to work as a "scissor, paper, rock game", am I wrong?

Guilty as charged, at least where the antimagic system is concerned. (I'm very unkeen on saves for a spell like Breach, because you end up having to carry silly numbers of them; this is less of an issue with non-detection.) I could try to offer a defences of the scissor-paper-rock debuff system, but ultimately I just see it as quite core to the way BG2 antimagic works, so I don't really want to mess with that within SCS.

Breach

I don't have strong views, but I could easily be persuaded that Breach should remove Stoneskin and pro/weapons spells but not as much else as it currently does.

Cool, I thought I was asking too much.

 

... make me an offer.

As you say, I'd limit it to combat protections, perhaps removing a bunch of the current ones too. Specifically Blade Barrier and Globe of Blades may not be affected if they are crucial for your clerics. Actually I would even dare to say that making it work only against PfMissiles, PfNW, PfMW, and Mantles (what Galactygon is suggesting if I'm not wrong*) could be fine with me. Such solution would seriously improve the appeal of things such as "armor spells".

Hmm. Let me come at this from a game-balance perspective and from SCS mages' viewpoints. I use breach to drop PMW (etc) and Stoneskin, but I also use it to get rid of Chaotic Commands, Protection from Magic Energy, elemental protections, and Death Ward. It would be quite inconvenient to do without these effects. I don't really need it to be able to take down fire shields, blade barriers, or Armour spells. (Indeed, from the perspective of defending spellcasters against the PCs, it would be helpful if it didn't take those down.) That cuts across sectypes, of course, so one would need to think about in-game justification.

Can you remind me why Breach can't take down (say) 4 defences? Isn't there an opcode that strips one defence of a given type, and if so, can't one just do a shell spell trick and apply 4 copies of the spell?

Still, I have some worries about compatibility with AI mods, should Breach become anti-combat only...

Like? Afaik Breach is mainly used to counter ProWeapon-like spells, is it heavily used against specific protections too?

Yes, I use it quite a bit that way. Pro/ME, in particular, is heavily prioritised for Breaching, because it protects from Horrid Wilting.

On balance I think it could be: it would make keeping clerics alive a helluva lot easier.

 

Come to think of it, I could even see a case for restricting Breach to arcane spells.

Perhaps I'm blind but how can Breach so heavily affect clerics?

Example: it takes down Iron Skins and Blade Barrier, which collectively radically changes the difficulty of taking down a druid.

Wizards were meant to be weak, deal with it. BG2 is stupid in this case, because many times you're going to fight lone wizard (which is absurd) - that's why we have got Chain Contingencies and PfMW here. Giving them some meatshield (or making them summon it) would be a far better idea than reducing this very very low chance of hitting goddamned wizard with your axe to zero.

The point is - "absurd" or not - that lone wizards are a major feature of BG2, and (contra your comment) they weren't "meant to be weak" in BG2. (Exhibit A: Irenicus. Exhibit B: Vongoethe. Exhibit C: Kangaxx. Etc.). So insofar as it isn't possible to protect them adequately in a given set of modifications, that's a problem. (The combat and movement system in BG2 makes meatshields all but useless as a way of protecting casters, and the chance of hitting a wizard with your axe isn't "very very low": as I've demonstrated, it's actually pretty high in mid SoA and later.)

It's been suggested before, but I don't find either spell failure or number of slots to be a serious constraint on my mage scripting, and I'm concerned about giving PCs too many resources (I dislike undroppable objects on principle).

 

With mods like aTweaks' scribe scrolls ability, only money will determine how many scrolls the party has. If we assume NPC casters have had years to accumulate wealth and resources, it's not a stretch for them to have 5-10 high-level scrolls. If enemy spellcasters fire off their scrolls in the first few rounds of combat, their chance of dropping those scrolls gets really low. I'd imagine spells that do not scale after level 12 are worth storing in a scroll, or a spell that the spellcaster does not know (this could be an excuse for lower-level wizards with connections of casting higher level magic).

 

-Galactygon

My experience with potions is that even when resources are expected to be used up quickly, PCs still rapidly acquire a very large number of them.

Still, I have some worries about compatibility with AI mods, should Breach become anti-combat only...

That's why any change to Breach that I'm happy with would have to be incorporated into SCS itself and allowed for in my AI (as with the changes to Mantle).

what do you do to simulate immunity to Remove Magic?

Spell Shield.

OK, but in that case the replacement spell does something very different from the original. (Unless Spell Shield actually grants immunity to Remove Magic in SR?)

On clerics staying alive: I think your best bet would be to introduce priest scrolls and have enemy priests heavily use them. They have the enormous benefit of non-interruptable spell-casting without the players saying "it's not fair".

I'm not convinced it would help. By about 12th level, stoneskin (esp. when not supported by Mirror Image et al) goes down pretty quickly in combat, and that's without allowing for an extra Breach (unlike mages, clerics don't have any way to put multiple defences up at once, and scrolls don't change that). It might help around the edges, though, so I'll bear it in mind.

I think the use of scrolls by enemy spellcasters is underrated by vanilla and mods like ScS.

It's been suggested before, but I don't find either spell failure or number of slots to be a serious constraint on my mage scripting, and I'm concerned about giving PCs too many resources (I dislike undroppable objects on principle).

If you think improving "armor spells" could seriously benefit mage duels I'd be glad to work on it.

I'm not convinced it would make so very much difference. Breach takes most of them down anyway (albeit see the below discussion) and at high levels, GWW and Critical Strike make AC pretty moot.

Clerics

It's even more strange for me when you say that you cannot make clerics last. They surely don't miss hit points and AC like mages, and they do have tremendous buffs (especially within SR). Do they really need things like PfMW to pose a serious threat?

Those buffs are irrelevant in the face of one Breach, and clerics basically can't shield themselves from Breach (very high-level clerics - but not druids - can use Shield of the Archons, but that still only buys half a round), don't have contingencies or sequencers to swiftly renew their defences once breached or hacked through, and don't have ultra-fast-casting-time protection buffs.

? I was speaking of buffs not affected by Breach such as Divine Might (Champion's Strength is better later on) or Divine Power, but I forgot they weren't so great in vanilla.

Are they so helpful as defences?

PnP Non-detection

If I'm understanding correctly, you're effectively telling me that N-D effectively (for my purposes) grants a saving throw vs. Truesight. Which is neat (technically as well as conceptually) but it doesn't to me obviate the need for players to be able to do something to remove the invisibility that doesn't rely on them waiting till the enemy fails a save (which at high levels is a seriously long time).

(Again, I can believe that in a systematic SR install, with save penalties et al, that's less of an issue, but I need to consider the vanilla game.)

Breach

Speaking of how easily Breach destroys clerics buffs reminded me an old doubt I never dared to speak about...isn't Breach really too powerful? I mean, a single mid-lvl spell with no save nor magic resistance check that can dispel even dozens of combat/specific protections at once is kinda insane if you ask me.

I don't have strong views, but I could easily be persuaded that Breach should remove Stoneskin and pro/weapons spells but not as much else as it currently does. I'm less keen on it offering a saving throw for the same reason as above. It's something I'd want to implement as an SCS component if it's deemed a good idea. On balance I think it could be: it would make keeping clerics alive a helluva lot easier.

Come to think of it, I could even see a case for restricting Breach to arcane spells.

... make me an offer.

Oh, one leftover bit of business from earlier discussions of SI. I now see why to you it's relatively important whether SI is one spell or eight. I guess I've always seen the eight-spell thing as no more than a workaround for the difficulty in putting SI into contingencies (notwithstanding the fact that enemies have been doing it ever since the vanilla game). In-game, I'm happy to justify it as just reflecting the fact that SI is a delicate spell and a wizard wanting to contingency-ise it needs to do some extra, specific, research. (And I'm relaxed about the fact that those crude sorcerer types just lack the finesse to cope with SI in contingencies). I was coming around to your dislike of SI:Abj, but I've been reminded by other bits of this thread just how useful and relevant immunity to Remove Magic is, especially in these post-Taimon days. So for me, I remain happy with SI, with the sole exception being the annoying issue of targetting antimagic on II characters. I tentatively think I can improve on my extant area-effect solution to that last problem, but I need to do some tests. Little of this, I think, interferes with your proposal to modify SCS's use of SI via SR, except for one residual question: what do you do to simulate immunity to Remove Magic?

I'm not much moved by that. The spells you need are the same spells you need to deal with any mage: a mixture of anti-magic spells like Secret Word, Ruby Ray etc. I agree, if you don't have a mage in the party, or if your mage hasn't bothered to learn any antimagic, you have a problem. That doesn't bother me. I've no problem with solo play, but I don't feel any obligation to go out of my way to make up for you not choosing to take a balanced party.

 

you're right, of course. The AI isnt as much a concern to me as the spell being used is capable of almost unlimited cheese when used by the PC. thats why im partial to advocating the removal of SI in favor of already established spells in D&D sourcebooks. like nondetection.

What cheesy things are you thinking of? (Not that I'm ever really sure what "cheesy" means in these discussions either.) I'm fairly relaxed in SCS about being able to counter PC uses of SI, but possibly there are things I'm missing.

Not really. The dictionary definition doesn't especially help, since this is a technical context. I already know that you think II+SI:Div is abusive, so requoting that example doesn't help either. What I want to know is what you actually mean by that term. (My experience is that 90% of the time it doesn't mean anything very coherent beyond "I dislike this", but feel free to prove that you're in the 10%.)

 

 

its abusive in the fact that it makes it a do-or-die situation to have a mage WITH the right spell selection at hand to deal with in a timely fashion. a cleric, no matter how epic would be wasting his true sight. its abusive because it requires a few key spells to be memorized at all times. im sure there are various ways to deal with without dispelling and/or targetting, but im seeing it from a solo-play point of view.

I'm not much moved by that. The spells you need are the same spells you need to deal with any mage: a mixture of anti-magic spells like Secret Word, Ruby Ray etc. I agree, if you don't have a mage in the party, or if your mage hasn't bothered to learn any antimagic, you have a problem. That doesn't bother me. I've no problem with solo play, but I don't feel any obligation to go out of my way to make up for you not choosing to take a balanced party.

Here's the basic problem. In BG2, Protection from Weapons spells (and, at lower levels, Stoneskin and MI) aren't supplements to hit points and AC: they're replacements for it. No mage can survive for any relevant period of time without them. Call these anti-weapon spells.

Is it because with vanilla's spells they can't reach a decent AC value?

Well, primarily I'm reporting experimentally confirmed behaviour rather than theorising, but for what it's worth: a 12th level fighter with strength 18/00, specialisation and a +3 weapon (i.e., what you have about 1/3 of the way through SoA) with modest buffing hits 3-4 times per round at THAC0 2, and so lands a couple of hits per round even on a wizard with AC -8. An 18th level fighter with strength 21 and a +5 weapon (i.e., what you have by the end of SoA) and modest buffing hits at least 3-4 times per round at THAC0 -8, at which point even AC -10 is hit every time except for critical misses. Does SR allow an archmage to get to AC -25 or better? If not, I doubt it helps.

I do understand this problem, but at the same time I continue to not understand why it doesn't seemed to affect IWDII where PfMW doesn't exist, and Stoneskin is way less effective.

My recollection of IWD2 (which admittedly I haven't played in many years) is that it does affect it: mages go down very quickly.

Could part of the problem be that we don't have any concentration check within BG and even 1 point of damage can disrupt spellcasting?

In part, yes.

It's even more strange for me when you say that you cannot make clerics last. They surely don't miss hit points and AC like mages, and they do have tremendous buffs (especially within SR). Do they really need things like PfMW to pose a serious threat?

Those buffs are irrelevant in the face of one Breach, and clerics basically can't shield themselves from Breach (very high-level clerics - but not druids - can use Shield of the Archons, but that still only buys half a round), don't have contingencies or sequencers to swiftly renew their defences once breached or hacked through, and don't have ultra-fast-casting-time protection buffs.

SCS allows Spell Deflection to block Breach, even when cast directly. I'm very reluctant to lose that; anyway, for the sake of argument, let's assume it. (If you want to argue me out of it, go for it; I suspect you're in favour, though.)

I do find your tweak almost a fix (which I gladly copied for SR), because I really don't see why Breach should bypass Spell Deflection/Turning.

I still think Fixpack's "developer intent" definition of "fix" is best; by that basis, this can't be called a fix as Breach's penetrating spell deflection is fairly clearly deliberate.

At least we can say that Post-Taimon having a Bard or an Inquisitor in the party to cast Dispel is a viable solution.

Yes, agreed (putting aside SI:Abj, but I could always have disallowed that if it were the only factor). But I'd rather not have to require parties to have one of those classes present.

If you ask me the crucial point is how SI:Div works: its "invincibility" factor vs divinations. As I said in my previous post, PnP Non-detection would make the whole system much better and you wouldn't need to add an AoE to spell removals

At least from the current SR description of Non-detection (and truesight) I don't see how this is: N-D claims to protect against Truesight, which makes it functionally equivalent to SI:Div. Elsewhere on the SR forums you seem to imply that it doesn't protect against Truesight, but now we're back to II going down in the first couple of seconds due to a pre-cast Truesight. What I want is a happy medium where taking down II takes time and effort but isn't impossible.

Can you clarify?

Last but not least a fixed Spell Shield surely makes step (2) slightly harder.

Yes, and I need to think about how the availability of that fix affects things.

My feeling is that there are already other ways to beat vanilla II + SI:D +SD + PfMW.

 

1. Detect Illusion Thief ability

2. Dispel Magic

3. Glitterdust

4. Death Fog

5. Chaos

This isn't exactly what I'm after in SCS. I want a situation in which the vanilla game's intended pattern of buff and debuff actually works effectively. So sure, there are ways to take an end run around a wizard's defences, but that's not what I want here. (You're welcome to say that I should want something entirely different, but for the purposes of this discussion, I'm taking my basic design goal as read.)

Having either a thief, inquisitor, bard, or cleric trivializes most mage fights with dispel.

This is the number 1 reason why I think SI:Abj is important, even if it doesn't block single-target abjuration antimagic attacks.

That's an example, not a definition.

well, an example serves better in the context of defining cheats/abusing in the game than quoting the dictionary...

Not really. The dictionary definition doesn't especially help, since this is a technical context. I already know that you think II+SI:Div is abusive, so requoting that example doesn't help either. What I want to know is what you actually mean by that term. (My experience is that 90% of the time it doesn't mean anything very coherent beyond "I dislike this", but feel free to prove that you're in the 10%.)

@Demi:

Let's have a go at rethinking this from scratch (within SCS's parameters). I've been running through the problem this evening, and I can't myself improve on my original set of solutions, but this may be my own lack of imagination.

Here's the basic problem. In BG2, Protection from Weapons spells (and, at lower levels, Stoneskin and MI) aren't supplements to hit points and AC: they're replacements for it. No mage can survive for any relevant period of time without them. Call these anti-weapon spells.

In vanilla rules, Breach takes down anti-weapon spells, so one survives only until Breach is successfully cast. The version of Breach that's cast directly penetrates Spell Turning, so only invisibility is a shield against it. The version of Breach that's loaded into wands of spell striking can't penetrate Spell Deflection et al, so Spell Deflection and invisibility are both shields against it.

SCS allows Spell Deflection to block Breach, even when cast directly. I'm very reluctant to lose that; anyway, for the sake of argument, let's assume it. (If you want to argue me out of it, go for it; I suspect you're in favour, though.)

With that change made, taking down a wizard is a four stage process:

(1) remove his Improved Invisibility, which stops you using Ruby Ray et al to lower his anti-spell defences

(2) remove his anti-spell defences with single-target antimagic

(3) remove his anti-weapon defences with Breach

(4) cut him to pieces.

This process can in principle be shortcutted by Dispel Magic. Pre-Taimon, this was basically ineffectual. These days, it's better, but still hit-and-miss at best.

Now, here's the dilemma.

A) If SI:Div is allowed, then in the vanilla rules there is no way at all to take down Improved Invisibility (short of the hit-and-miss strategy of using Dispel Magic). So the whole process can't get started and you're stuck at step 1. (That's the Tactics/IA situation).

B) if SI:Div is not allowed, then any sane party has Truesight running as part of their pre-combat buffs (and even if they didn't buff, the cleric can throw it up fairly quickly). So step 1 happens almost automatically. Only steps 2-4 remain.

In (A), things are annoying and boring. I don't like the Tactics/IA situation one bit.

In (B), mages go down too quickly. (You can see this in SCS by looking at how quickly clerics go down: I'm just unable to protect them.)

My ideal, unimplementable solution is for single-target antimagic spells to work even against invisible targets. In that case, you just hit mages with antimagic, in the presence of Truesight, till they're targettable, and then kill them. It takes long enough to cut through a wizard's defences that things are fairly even (I predict). In this situation, SI:Abj and SI:Div don't seem to me unbalanced: they're just one more step in the defence process. (I'm leaving out the legitimate irritation that SI:Abj doesn't seem to do what it says on the tin.)

As I say, this is unimplementable. The nearest I can get to an implementation is the small area of effect used in SCS. That's imperfect, and you've noted above you don't like it; it's also the best I can think of to resolve the dilemma.

At the moment, SR doesn't seem to help. Non-detection is penetrated by Truesight (as I understand it) so we're back in situation (B). If SI:Div is allowed, but area-effect antimagic isn't, we're instead in situation (A).

Thoughts welcomed. I'm genuinely amenable to restructuring SCS's antimagic framework if there's a genuinely better (and not-much-more-disruptive-to-vanilla) solution out there. Area effects for antimagic is my least-worst solution, not my ideal one.

Can you define "cheap"?

low cost, high effect. like SI:I

On that basis, a high-level caster casting Remove Magic is cheap.

Can you define "abusing"?

the trick where you can make the project image immune to divinations is very abusive.

That's an example, not a definition.

nothing can replace SI: Abj or SI: Div, so far as I can see

SR4 can introduce neat implementation of Spell Shield and PnP Non-Detection

If you read up one line from that quote, you'll see that I was specifically discussing the situation relative to vanilla.

Maybe Protection from Negative Plane should work like that? For example Chilling Touch is damaging character by channeling Negative Energy - why not to make it protect you against it? And from most of damaging necromantic spells? That'd make this spell a lot more usefull (to be honest: without vampires attacking you for long part of the game that'd be just pathetic spell).

That's a slightly odd comment. The point of the spell is to protect you from energy drain, so yes: the spell would be pretty useless if nothing attacked you with energy drain. Similarly, Truesight would be pretty pointless if no-one ever used illusions against you.

SI allows players to abuse mechanical stuff (like near-to-unbeatable SI:D with Improved Invisibility) which is a) cheap b) terrifyingly effective.

Can you define "cheap"?

It's current implementation lacks of finesse and well... possibility of stopping it, even if you're correctly prepared.

In either SR or SCS, you can counter it with an anti-magic attack.

Characters abusing SI are sometimes just like "Hah, I've got immunity to everything and you suck".

Can you define "abusing"?

Also SI is just too versatile. When learning Non-Detection, True Seeing or Spell Shield you're deciding what sort of danger is going to wait for you. Learning SI is close to automatic, it's just "Well, no matter what it's going to rule".

Is learning SI close to automatic for you when you play? It's pretty low down my priority list for 5th level spells, personally speaking (and it rarely seems to get onto people's lists of recommended sorcerer spells).

I think the real difference (although it overlaps your "concept vs implementation" distinction) is that in SR, your thinking is basically "what would the best spell system look like if designed from scratch?", whereis in SCS I'm considering "what aspects of the existing spell system are sufficiently problematic that they need to be changed?". In addition, you're asking: what does SI look like when we allow for all the other changes made to the spell system in SR? I'm asking: what does SI look like relative to the vanilla spell system?

If I were to ask your questions, rather than mine, then probably I wouldn't include Spell Immunity in my designed-from-scratch spell system. It's a cute idea, but on balance I think the costs outweigh the advantages.

But redesigning the spell system from scratch isn't what SCS is about. (And, in this particular case, supporting multiple options isn't really viable as the buff/antibuff aspect of SCS's smarter mages is too core for me to be willing to support multiple versions.) So for me (and therefore, unfortunately, for anyone else who wants to change the mage defence system while maintaining SCS compatibility) the question has to be mine: is SI sufficiently problematic (either at all, or as a 5th level spell) that it really needs to be changed? The bar is relatively high here: comparable changes in SCS are allowing Breach to be blocked by Spell Turning, giving areas of effect to antimagic, and increasing the strength of Mantle - though the latter was a borderline choice for me.

So, looking at your case-by-case analysis (and restricting attention to the vanilla situation, which has to be the point of comparison for SCS):

- I agree that SI:Trans, SI:Conj, SI:Ill are unattractive. That doesn't especially bother me from an SCS perspective: they can stay as part of the overall flavour of the SI spell.

- We're both happy with SI: Nec.

- You think SI: Div is underpowered, which surprises me. It's a very powerful protective spell for a mage: II + SI:Div is the key to staying unBreached. I suppose I wouldn't go to the wall to stop it being 4th level, but +/- 1 level doesn't hugely bother me from an SCS perspective. (And of course if it's part of SI, then the overall spell might justifiably be 5th level even though this component would be 4th level as a standalone.)

- You think SI: Ench is worth a 6th level slot. I'm not sure why (at least within vanilla; I concede that if you throw in protection from power words, things might change, but that's not salient for SCS). Chaotic Commands does everything SI: Ench does, has a far longer duration, keeps off psionic attacks that aren't in the enchantment school, and can be cast on others. But in any case, even if I were convinced it ideally should be 6th level, from an SCS point of view that's not a big enough change to justify shifting the status quo.

- You say that "any 5th level Protection from Fire/Cold/Lightning/Acid spell simply pales compared to SI:Evo". As I recall, Protection from Fire/Cold is 3rd level in vanilla, but in any case, which would you rather have available when facing Firkraag? (And don't forget that protection from Fire can be cast on other party members.) Again, I think you're underestimating the benefits of long duration, castability on others, and protection from non-spell attack forms. And again, even if I were convinced that ideally SI:Evo should be 6th level rather than 5th, that's not enough of a problem to justify changing it in SCS. (I put my money where my mouth is here, incidentally: SI:Evo turns up pretty rarely in my prebuff routines.)

- Conceptually speaking I've some sympathy with your annoyance at SI:Abj... but not much - I don't see a problem with the idea that some spells can bypass Spell Immunity, and if those happen to be mostly abjurations, so be it. Implementation-wise, immunity to dispel magic seems to be roughly worth a 5th level slot.

Regarding your more general comments:

(1) I agree that the technical constraints are annoying. Ultimately they don't bother me hugely, though: by all means let's suppose that sorcerors don't get access to these particuar spells. (There are no sorcerors in SCS, so it's not like I'm breaking that rule elsewhere.)

(2) I think it's only true that all SI spells have equivalent spells if SR is installed. Relative to vanilla:

- nothing can replace SI: Abj or SI: Div, so far as I can see

- SI: Ench and SI: Nec are roughly but not entirely equivalent to certain priest spells, but don't have a mage equivalent

- SI: Alt, SI: Ill and SI: Conj are fairly ineffectual, so unsurprisingly don't have equivalents

- the nearest equivalent to SI:Evo is the (imo much more powerful, and so much higher level) Pro/Elem.

(3) As a side point, do I take it that stacking SI: per se, doesn't bother you? (I'm assuming that because if you're replacing SI's various components with similar spells at different levels, presumably they will be stackable.)

This is an interesting discussion, by the way. I'm deeply bored of people (not you) saying "SI is overpowered" or "it's cheesy to stack SI" or the like without bothering to give arguments. I'm mostly not persuaded by your arguments, but it's nice to actually get some!

On a different note, though, is this going to mess up Detectable-Spells-based targetting in SCS? After all, I check for SI:[whatever] when I target a spelll, but obviously I don't check for Mind Shield. (Indeed, there's a more general issue of how you handle detectability of new protection spells in SR - what do you do atm?)

I don't think this is a problem. Instead of spell protection (SI) there'll be specific protections (MB, ProEnergy, etc.) - AI won't detect vanilla SI, but it will notice the Chaotic Commands like effect.

Of course, it requires DS to check for SR and execute an additional set of patches for it's changes, but I see nothing wrong with that.

Nothing technical. But I'm not really keen on having the SCS version of DS keep track of every spell modification made by third-party mods, so I think if SR is making these changes to protection spells, it would make sense for it to ship with its own chunk of DS. The DS code is robust against being installed multiple times.

EDIT: come to think of it, a cleaner solution is just for SR to supply its own version of the control table for DS, and dump it in (e.g.) the override. I'm happy to get SCS to look for it, and then use the SR version of the control table if it exists.

The fact is that I'm not the one giving Mind Blank a higher level than SI, it's PnP. BG Spell Immunity is an invention of BG developers, and the vast majority of players agree they created an OP spell.

Leaving aside my points about Mind Blank's greater power, which you accept, I'm not much moved by pure PnP concerns. The BG2 spellcasting context is quite different (and in any case, 2nd edition spell level assignments are hardly immune from criticism).

I'm also not sure what the significance is of your comment about "the vast majority of players" (even if it's correct, which I'm sceptical about - people who are happy with things aren't likely to comment). The salient issue, presumably, is the quality of the arguments, not the number of supporters.

Also, Mind Blank protects (I take it) from mental attacks that aren't included in the Enchantment school (notably Illithid attacks), and (correct me if I'm wrong) has a longer duration; similarly, (vanilla) ProEnergy protects against plenty of attacks not in the Evocation school (e.g. Flame Arrow, dragon breath) and again (iirc) has a longer duration.

Finally, I'm very unbothered by the apparent benefit of being able to get 8 different versions of SI from one memorised spell because in practice in BG2 it's highly unlikely that you won't be reasonably clear on which one you need in advance; having said which, it would bother neither SCS nor me personally to remove the single SI entirely in favour of the eight specific versions.

The problem is that you have two caps to how many spells you can learn per level, an in-game roleplaying one (depending on INT, but having 4-5 SI in the spellbook isn't great even if you have INT 18) and a technical one (sorcerers can only learn spells from that 24 spells per level limited list, you can't have 8 SI in such list).

Granted; in that case, I retract my support for getting rid of the single-use version.

I won't quote the discussion of how SI is more useful to enemy wizards than player ones, because I don't particularly disagree. But if we're discussing whether it's overpowered for enemy wizards, then the fact that it's useable in eight different ways becomes basically irrelevant, because no enemy AI I know takes advantage of that flexibility. In this situation, it comes down to a direct comparison, and that comparison seems to work out okay to me.

In more detail: grant, for the sake of argument, that Mind Blank should indeed be 8th level. It provides immunity to all mental attack forms, including but not limited to enchantments, and it has a long duration, and iirc, it's castable on other creatures, not just on the caster. In comparison, SI:Ench is caster-only, has a short duration, and protects only from enchantment-school mental attack forms. A three-level difference doesn't seem crazy in that circumstance. Certainly one level difference seems too little. (I wouldn't go overboard for 5th level versus 6th, but overall there's a game-interest case for spreading out spells a bit, and 6th is usually pretty oversubscribed... and in any case, in SCS I nearly always use SI via sequencers and contingencies, so 5th vs 6th is irrelevant) Similar arguments apply for Pro/Elements vs SI:Evoc.

Now, granted: enemy wizards are usually less affected by these restrictions than PCs: they don't tend to get attacked by mind flayers, and they tend not to be too disadvantaged by duration (though I don't use SI as a long-term buff precisely because it's got a short duration, so the duration is only irrelevant for players who choose prebuff option 1). But that's not a reason to ignore the restrictions when assigning a level to the spell, any more than the fact that enemy wizards find Fireball very hard to use compared to the player is a reason to lower its level.