Ardanis

Fog Cloud

The anti-thief effect is something I didn't consider... Then it is simply a stationary Detect Invisibility, where you can hide from backstabbing people. Was it only Web getting smaller radius, or clouds too? Well, I suppose if David and Avenger didn't ban us for Glitterdust, they will definitely do now.

 

Reduced LOS, AC vs missiles, and attack penalties then. But it really bogs me casters will be able to shoot at clouded opponents without penalty.

 

Mordenkainen's Force Missiles

I'd take 5 splash damage instead of 25. But even 2d4*7 without a save is almost overmuch.

 

Enervation

Ardanis suggested to make it replace the currently unappealing Contagion, but while it makes sense, and it may allow to see this spell used by the AI without a new SCS update, I feel it's a pity to remove one of the very few sources of disease (the only other spells causing disease are Dolorous Decay and Symbol of Weakness).

Shouldn't 2nd Blindness/Deafness make up for it?

 

Vitriolic Sphere

Since we generally look for ways to avoid save-or-else spells, I'd take ADnD version.

 

 

@Ardanis, on a side note, do you think making bard's spellbook (not to mention paladin and ranger ones) a little more unique belong to SR? I think re-arraging the spellbooks (e.g. removing Animate Dead and similar spells to paladins, making multi ranger/cleric not use all druid's spells, and so on) belongs to KR, not SR. Don't you agree? And if yes, shouldn't an eventual bard-only Soundburst be added only by KR and not SR?

IR shares the same problem, doesn't it?

How would you implement it, though? Learn from bard-only scrolls, or automatically add upon level-up? Since the latter requires CLAB***.2DA modification, I'd left it for KR, otherwise SR looks a fine place to add few scrolls in shops.

If it's scrolls, then I'd expect an opportunity to pick it at character creation as well, and unless I miss something, that's impossible without opening the spell to wizards.

Mantles

Increasing effect can be done, but within DS limits only, which has distinctive values for normal weapons, +2 (+3 in SCS), +3 (+4 in SCS), Absolute Immunity (+5, but likely +6 too), and PFMW.

However, some additional work will be required, else standard DS will not understand the spell should be labeled differently depending on level. Hopefully nothing unmanageable.

 

I really don't know how it could be doable outside of really daring solutions, such as making Improved Mantle work as Mantle affecting allies within 10 feet (crazy eh?).

Interesting, but... unbalanced maybe? Coupled with the above tweak it is almost a mass Absolute Immunity!

 

Maze

Ignore MR maybe?

Fog Cloud

So you still prefer this solution instead of limited line of sight?

I believe you didn't understand my point then

I prefer both - reducing LOS gives advantage to those outside of cloud, while II effect - to those within it. The spell doesn't have any definite bonus or penalty, but is neutral, so it is up to the caster to decide whether the benefit will outweight the penalty or not.

 

Deafness

So no Soundburst? What would be the point of Deafness? No one would ever cast it instead of Blindeness, not to mention SCS tweak to True Seeing (which we'll have to match) makes even Blindness a much less effective spell.

I thought about two effects in one spell.

 

Soundburst, you did want to have a unique spellbook for bards, no?

 

Gedlee's Electric Loop

Thus you'd vote for a single save a la IWD instead of PnP's two in a row saves?

Yes. Without penalty, perhaps.

 

Icelance

Fine either way. Lance should definitely impale the target, no other way.

That's probably due to

APPEND ~STATE.IDS~ ~0x80101FEF CD_STATE_NOTVALID~
UNLESS ~CD_STATE_NOTVALID~

missing at the beginning of component.

Fog Cloud

The main implementation problem is that offering complete invisibility effect is unbalancing, while forcing the creature visible (thus keeping II only) will also strip any other invisibility effect the target might have had.

 

Although I believe it is sensible behavior - the whirling of thick mist should expose anybody moving within. Invisibility magically disappeaer after the character casts a spell or attacks something, i.e. makes his presence known, so why shouldn't the same happen in fog. The Glitterdust spell already works by this concept.

 

Ray of Fatigue - Power Word Fatigue

Power Words' distinctive feature is no saving throw allowed, and unsaveable -2 penalty to attack/AC/casting/movement strikes me as unbalanced for 1st spell. I'd go with Ray and save.

 

Polytope has a point too about merging Blindness with Deafness.

 

Gedlee's Electric Loop

I wouldn't worry about stun, because in order to disable a group of enemies in this manner you'd have to get the caster literally surrounded. If he does manage to pull it off without getting slaughtered, I think he deserves some bonus points.

 

Snilloc's Snowball Swarm

For these reasons - animation, AI, comparison with Fireball, - I think party-friendliness should used.

I guess Ardanis is actually suggesting to "merge" the two spell's concepts and probably remove Sphere of Chaos.

I was only proporsing the Chaos->Symbol of Insanity change, because they have nearly identical effect.

SoC uses different sort of effect (cloud), if we'd like we could rename it to Maddening Whispers, to be closer to PnP.

 

We could make the AI use Confusion instead, but only if SCS is trained to cast it regardless of Globe of Invulnerability (in theory Confusion is still working against all other party members, but vs solo mages it would be awkard).

GoI's type is undetectable, and SCS only refrains from casting 3rd spells when it sees it.

Chaos

Does anyone think this spell is vastly overpowered for it's level?

Large AoE, party-friendly, the most vicious save penalty the arcane spellbook has to offer, and it bypasses Globe of Invulnerability by being a 5th level spell. In fact, the only defense against it is SI:Enchantment and Chaotic Commands, beside 100% MR and equipped immunity. I find it quite wrong to disable a group of summoned Cowled Wizards by a single 5th spell.

In 95% cases it outshines other enchantment spells on it's level (Hold Monster, Feeblemind, Domination).

We haven't found an adequate way to distinguish Chaos from Confusion a level lower.

 

It led to a daring thought - all of the above can be solved in one feel swoop if Chaos is changed to PnP's Symbol of Insanity (8th level). It won't even have to have it's vanilla parameters changed, with the added benefits of increased level (immunity penetration) and symbol's trap-like nature they'll fit a 8th spell nicely.

 

And back in the middle levels there will be a currently underused Confusion.

Fog Cloud/Obscuring Mist

I would also add improved invisibility effect, to prevent spellcasting against creatures within.

 

Dimension Step/Dimension Hop

My reasoning to change DD to 5th level Greater DD (unlimited DD ability for 1 round/lvl) is due to the 4th Ch. boss Davaeron (BG1), who has an unlimited teleportation ability. What he does is exactly a GDD in effect.

Control Undead

Have anyone used it since V3 buff?

Mind control is simply not my playing style

 

Limited Wish

Many things could be done here, but I don't know if we have time and will to really mess with this spell.

I think Wish spells deserve a separate topic...

For example, we can try to add PnP features to them (duplicate any spell of lower level).

 

Mantle

What do you guys think of its V3 version? Did it become somewhat appealing compared to the mighty PfMW?

It had some appeal with 3 round long PFMW, but nothing special. To make it worse, Improved Mantle is a level higher, and two same spells one level apart is a pain imo.

If PFMW gets back 4 rounds, then add an extra round to Mantles and Absolute Immunity too.

Also I would double the AC bonus (to 6 and 8), it will provide reasonable protection even when opponent's weapon can bypass the immunity.

 

Mordenkainen's Sword

In PnP Dispel Magic too works against it, but I'm not sure about implementing it (and handling caster lvl checks could be difficult).

IIRC aTweaks makes something killable with dispel magic, either mordy of nishruu.

 

Protection from the Elements

it's still a good cheaper alternative considering magic damage is very rare.

Magic damage is quite common, second only to fire, maybe.

Regardless, the duration is reasonably long, thus it's fine.

 

Summon Hakeashar

But I think one of the two spells should get removed to make room for something new.

I'm tempted to agree. One is enough, and I haven't even used them ever.

Protection from Normal Weapons

Balance wise it should be on 3rd level, where ProNMissiles was/is, one offering greater duration and ability to cast on allies, the other including melee weapons as well.

 

And since ProNMissiles became ProMissiles... It's not really a suggestion to switch them, but I think you get my meaning

Protection from Normal Weapons

Since ADnD purists are clearly against seriously altering or replacing this spell, the only mild change I can think of is to increase it's duration. And greatly so, to 1 turn/level (or even fixed 8 hours). Then perhaps it's not a waste of a highly valuable 5th slot to memorize it.

 

It imposes a complication, however, - the caster will not be able to cast PFMW during this time, which is a good enough reason to avoid PFNW once again... Well, if it were up to me, I'd allow it to stack with PFMW (it does anyway when cast from a trigger). No big deal imo, no AI uses normal weapons against PFMW except RR's Cyricist party - where, coincidentally, you start with no buffs, thus can't afford to waste a round or a slot in a trigger to include PFNW.

 

I suspect, however, that despite my reasoning above the stackability won't be accepted anyway, so there is a backup option - to allow casting it on the others.

 

Breach

I'll need to investigate it further, but I think there are several places where AI is trained to dispel fireshields and armors as well. Still I doubt there'll be any field for abuse.

Tanking is pointless as enemies shoudn't focus summons, or at least, not that much.

When an enemy mage summon creatures, I'll focus him with all I have to bring him down.

AI scripts should act like this and not waste spells on summons.

You aren't quite right. There are few things as annoying as watching AI to ignore a summon and keep hitting the caster. Why else would one use a summon if not to distract the enemy and give oneself more breathing room?

Conjure Elemental

Putting aside the combat value of the ability to select the desired effect, as well as it being basically the same spell, being three separate spells also means:

1) sorcerers have no real way to use all three in one game; to a lesser extent, low INT wizards (Aerie) have the same problem

2) wizards have to buy/find three scrolls to learn all elementals

3) unless I'm mistaken, this is not per PnP

 

Oracle

I don't remember where did the idea end up, or even if it was for this spell (!), but back then we've considred the Arcane Sight effect - the ability to see enemy wizards' spell/combat protections. Although Demi said in the KR's thread there was a kind of problem with the proposed solution, needs to re-check.

 

PS

Breach

I continue being of the opinion that removing specific protection should be moved over to Pierce Magic, and that we have to convince David to take that into account (it's fairly easy to allow for).

Confusion

Disable it. 4th level needs space for new spells, and with Chaos on 5th I see no reason to keep Confusion.

 

Contagion

Emotion Despair beats it hands down. Change to Enervation.

 

Dimension Door

Move to 5th level as a Greater DD. Caster receives an innate refreshable DD for a limited time. LOS is required.

 

Fire Shields

I'd prefer Elemental Shield ala NWN, with combined effect rather than selection menu. The second shield is moved to 5th level as Acid Sheath.

 

Spirit Armor

I'd increase it's effect - duration, level progression, whatever, - as well as the backlash. I've played with 4d6 damage, seemed fine.

 

Dimensional Anchor

Good, but there's no space if we add Vitrolic Sphere, Force Missiles and Phantasmal Killer.

Skull Trap

Set the casting time to 1 round. It's a "trap", so using it in combat should be more tricky. It being a trap also compensates for lower damage than Fireball.

 

Fireball

I'm for keeping 30' radius. ST does more damage and can be set in advance, but FB is faster and covers larger area.

 

Spell Thrust

You may be right. However, is there a point?

Skull Trap

Explosive skeletons are out of consideration due to frequent use of this spell by AI. That said, I'd prefer the vanilla "trap" version over a walking bomb.

 

Perhaps casting time should be increased to 1 turn, as with Symbols? This is a trap, after all, ought to take some time to place.

 

Fireball

Greater blast raduis is what distinguishes Fireball from Skull.

On the other hand, reducing raduis does limit the use of this spell in scout-ahead-and-fireball-from-out-of-their-sight tactic.

 

Protection from Missiles

Like Aranthys says, except I think AC bonus should be either 5+1/2lvl or 1/lvl.

Friends

I think the only way to make this truly useful (and work as the description states) is to re-work every encounter to offer a non-violent solution. Way out of the question, surely.

In plans for Quest Revisions.

 

Until then, 8 hours as suggested. I'm actually quite content with sacrificing one spell slot for better prices.

Reflected Image

David said that with short duraion this spell is unusable by AI on mid-high levels, because it would have to compete with PFMW and always lose.

 

At the same time, I can still see a room for player-use, because unlike PFMW it's cumulative with Stoneskin and can greatly help against greater golems and other melee foes, who still may be not worth casting a 6th level spell.

 

True Strike

1) The name implies one guaranteed hit

2) There's already Tenser, if we want warrior's thaco

3) 1 round is indeed hard to use

 

Chill Touch & Shocking Grasp

One - ranged touch, another - enhanced attack (5 rounds?). I suppose CT is better for attack, and SG - for ranged, as you say. But then it'd have to be renamed, as I can't imagine a ranged grasp.

Chromatic Orb

If ToBEx really allows SI-like spells to work with contingencies/triggers I may expand this spell to let the caster decide the color (aka the secondary effect) of the orb.

Great.

 

Reflected Image

Reduce duration? To 3+1/5lvl or so.

 

True Strike

Make it grant a single critical hit.

Why has the elemental summon duration been reduced to 1 turn + 1 round/level. These now only last for 2-3 mins, which is pretty bad. Are they really so beefed up now that they require this to counterbalance them?

Right now - yes. Earth ones had no problem holding off Yaga-Shura's army while I was picking on major threats.

 

I do tend to agree for making them long-lasted. They're the best candidature for it imo.

I get the feeling you guys don't play much BG1, do you? As any BG1 player will tell you, healing spells are absolutely essential at lower levels.

 

Nerfing them in this manner would disrupt the game balance greatly.

That's what I'm saying - healing spells totally outshine anything else at low levels. At the same time, IR made potions a lot cheaper, so that even 1st lvl party can be offered a couple in any shop.

Lightning Bolt

a) As a matter of personal preference, I'd stick to respective vanilla animations for both spells.

b) Should they look alike? One spell is single target, while another has AoE.

 

c) I don't know if there's any direct way to identify a source referenced in fireball.ids. Needs to check manually.

I assume you want to make a brand new explosion animation? Holy/unholy smite also could use the same one, they don't look too different and most certainly the source spells are nearly identical in all aspects.

 

Speaking of CS and PS, the Prismatic Chain should then also be immune to CS, in addition to CO and PS. Not that anybody still uses CS by that time, though.

 

Disintegrate

Reposting feedback from Russian boards - both -5 penalty and 5d6 on failed save is too much. Reducing penalty to -2 would be most fine.

I know we've already discussed it earlier, so it's more for statistics.

 

Cure Wounds

I've just recalled something. You said that "X+(lvl/2)dX" will present very weak CLW and CMW in BG1, yes? But, how often do people memorize something else on first levels beyond healing? Slots are scarce, and having a free substitute for a couple of potions of healing is probably the best deal an adventuring party can hope for.

Then, if CLW is quite weak, there's a better reason to invest in something else. Like - Doom, Remove Fear, Bless, Sanctuary, etc. All are fine spells, but they imo pale compared with a free potion.

 

Lastly, light wound probably shouldn't mean more than 25% of the max health.

CoC was the one I've used for visuals. I'd say it's out of consideration - too discreet, and displays almost nothing when shooting along the screen diagonal.

The best choice imo is the secondary projectile used for graphics, but it still has an issue of disappearing too soon sometimes. Well, all in all I'd say it could work, but just like Demi has said, together with another issue it deviates dangerously far from 'perfect'.

I used 16. At longer distances it still spreads a bit.

Agreed about A64 part, though he seems to have stopped the active development.

EDIT

 

Alright, here's what I've managed to do. I added a secondary projectile (LIGHTBLT) to the main cone, and it displays normally - a single bolt that flies past critters up to the max distance. The only catch here is - secondary one will only fly as far as the spot the spell was cast at. So if you target ground nearby yourself, the bolt will disappear few feet away, while everything standing farther will take damage nonetheless. Otoh, seeing how electrical damage already produces lightning sparks, they might be counted as the bolt's extension.

 

 

And another edit

As I feared - it affects only those, whose circle's center appears within the cone. At a distance of 1 foot it's near impossible to hit somebody with a thin cone.