kreso

Suggestions about Ranger spellbook:

From level 1 - remove Armor of Faith, Bless, Magical Stone (I'd vote Doom as well, but I'm sure many would disagree)

- add Faerie Fire and Sunscorch

level 2 seems ok

level 3 - remove Contagion (I'd vote for Dispel Magic removal as well )

- add Hold Person or Animal

level 4 - remove Free Action, Poison, Cloak of Fear, maybe Lesser Restoration as well

Archer gets Called Shot at 1st level, it seems to be usable at melee as well (not that anyone would use it that way).

He can also obtain GM in crossbows, I don't know if this is intended. Also, he can use all shields.

Why don't you just assume that they try to play the whole BGT experience and ... ouh yeah, you forgot the HLA's again... so that's a no, great. It's not like it's intergated part of the game.... yes, that's irony.

Thinking about HLA's, class which suffers the most delay is monk. Given the abilities they get instead (most notably Slow Time and 19th level Ki pool upgrades) it's kind of balanced out.

B

@Demi

Apart from Ranger and Archer, is there any other specific kit you need more feedback on? I usually run test playthroughs with 3 KR - revised kits, so I'll have room for 1 more warrior-type.

I don't know, BG1 or BG2?

Both, I guess.

@Demi

Apart from Ranger and Archer, is there any other specific kit you need more feedback on? I usually run test playthroughs with 3 KR - revised kits, so I'll have room for 1 more warrior-type.

I'll give you feedback on Ranger and Archer in 3 days or so.

Stalker

I knew about x2 at level 1 but I forgot about x4 at level 17. Well, I guess it's even better if we don't need heavy changes, isn't it? After all this kit already was quite good imo, only a little overshadowed by a F/T combo, but I think KR's revised spellcasting should be the focus for making him feel different from just a gimped F/T.

One change I'd make is x3 at 8th and x4 at 16th, if for nothing else than to make it slightly more appealing for BG1 end level.

Archer gets both Tracking and Wild Empathy. Intended?

For now yes. As one of you (not sure who right now) said that keeping spellcasting helps making the kit look like a ranger kit rather than a fighter kit, the same way I thought that tracking and wild empathy are a really defining features, together with stealth. Am I wrong?

No, you're not wrong. It does make True class quite unappealing, however.

both Wild Empathy and Tracking need mid-level upgrades.

They aren't implemented then? The description only says that it gets "significantly better at 10th and 19th level". Now, if you can make Wild Empathy useful at 19th my hat is off to you.

Quoted here for consistency.

Archer gets both Tracking and Wild Empathy. Intended?

Stalker

- At 1st level, can backstab with a x2 damage multiplier, which increases to x3 at level 9 and x4 at level 17.

You know this is vanilla table, right? It's only the in-game description that's wrong.

Cannot use shields.

Not even buckler?

Notes:

KR's Stalker is just an improved/refined version of vanilla's kit, clearly based upon AD&D version. The only similar class I could find in more recent PnP editions is 3E Darkwood Stalker.

Ha. They stole the Darkwood name from that comic Za-gor Te-Nay. Epic. Will you be implementing Uncanny Dodge, Death attack or Dodge Critical as well?

-

the Stalker is now limited to use weapons suited to backstab as per AD&D.

This seems fine.

I don't want to over-complicate the thing too much for various reasons (not to mention avoiding class description madness) but considering I do not want it to look like a common summon I was thinking to give it at least two relatively simple features:

- both beastmaster and the companion gets a small bonus (e.g. +2 thac0?) when fighting close to each other

- when the master dies the companion "enrages" (not sure vice versa)

I'm all for keeping things as simple as possible, and I like the idea of them figthing better when close to each other and am not against improving this later.

However, considering the fact that not everyone plays with custom NPCs and Level1NPCs "when master dies" will mean it's game over.

Edited by Demi to cover a terrible quoted grammar typo he made.

Great. May I ask, this panther thing.....it will be implemented like a familiar (you'll be able to put it in you backpack), or as an innate ability, or it will always stand by your side?

.............? Any news?

Above is true ofc, but if only for SCS/full prebuff (and not all mages in BG1 know stoneskin, and many will not cast it if they don't actually see you, they will insta-cast but this only works if they're not dead ) and the abovementioned IR component (but it's also true for thieves, not only Stalkers).

Also, Stalker gets 18/xx strenght, making him even more likely to connect with his backstab than a thief.

Basically, if you really want this feature on them (I'd skip this spell completely, even for trueclass if just for RP reasons - I don't see ranger as somebody who kills by backstabs. Staker excluded ofc, but this kit has very little in common with a ranger imo) than implement it. If it shows too powerful, remove it. Ends up balanced and keeping the kit optimized (especially true class), even better.

Why would it be wrong?

1) It's not permanent

2) It's only can get as much as equal to a thief, not better (nevermind an Assassin).

ad 1) It may not be permanent, but how many times do you need to backstab a mage? One is all it takes usually, and x4 early BG2 this is quite OP imo .

ad 2) you said it, it equals thieves.

In addition, they have 4 pips to start, free dual-wield and a better Hit Dice. I don't think Stalker needs any further enhancements, it's already very powerful.

Level 1 Offensive stance is missing melee damage, and missile damage bonus is applied twice.

Fixed thanks.

 

Btw, tomorrow you'll have the Ranger and Archer. Sorry for taking so long, I've been too busy.

Np. I did notice that my longbow fighter was doing quite a bit of damage and Berserker didn't benefit none from Offensive Stance.

P.S.

I knew I forgot something - Wizard Slayer armor - medium or light? I'd vote medium now. It gives him much more versitality, at least in BG1, and in BG2 difference becomes almost non-existent. I'd still remove medium shields (these allow for tanking much more than armor) from them (even if I have no clue wich usability flags are/could be used for that - bard's maybe - limit him to chain/buckler?)

Level 1 Offensive stance is missing melee damage, and missile damage bonus is applied twice.

@kreso, useful recap thanks.

Np, but I probably missed something.

Barbarian - "+2 damage/THAC0, +x movement speed" is pretty much what it had in one of the first betas, fine with me using it instead of 2 apr at level 9 until I manage to find a better implementation

I have vague memory of it, yes. K.

Wizard Slayer - 40% miscast for SCS compatibility (49% sounds silly imo - I know I could lie about it within description saying it's still 50%, but I prefer to not do it)

I'd lie, but that's just me.

Let's see..

True Fighter - seems ok... Played a bit more in BG1, again a nice surprise with Offensive Stance + Longbow, damage over 11-12 per hit. He's good.

Kensai - nerfing apr with Ki Dodge level 19 upgrade. Not sure what you had in mind (or how). Am not against setting APR to 0; it would still serve it's purpose (surviving CS HLA when you fail to send a tank to do his job).

Wizard Slayer - well, you might want to change spell failure to either 49 or 40 % chance so SCS mages can actually cast something.

Undead Hunter - ??

Berserker - ??

Cavalier - what's your worries?

Paladin - I just played today a no-reload with him, Durlag's Tower ended it. Given his immunities (and his LoH healing poison) I'm not against him being immune to both Poison and Disease (Poison immunity is very rare in BG1, I think only Spider's Bane has it). Anyway, doesn't really matter in BG2 (it would be nice in BG1), just an idea.

Inqusitor seems fine as he is.

Barbarian - I don't know how you stand with re-implementing Leap Attack. Maybe, a small chance when he strikes(or kills) an enemy, he gains +2 damage/THAC0, +x movement speed? That's not Leap by any means however . I still think that his Cleave level 9 upgrade is a bit too much.

Monk - immunity to Haste/Slow re-introduced

About new beta:

Will it include some refinements to Cavalier, UH, Berserker, or only add Ranger+Archer?

Hunter's eye - self only, +1 backstab multiplier (aka x2 for True Ranger)

Cool idea. x2 isn't op and expands the use of stealth.

I see several issues with this. If you give this to True Ranger, he'll be just as good for backstabbing as a Stalker in BG1 is now, making him redundant.

If you give this to Stalker, his backstab gets too big and on par with thieves, which is imo wrong.

True Ranger

..... in the long run we might indeed discover we need one of the two classic "disadvantages" from 3E (medium armor and d8).

I'd vote medium armor. Even the in-game description of constitution says that it's important for rangers. And honestly, I fail to see ranger in full-plate.

Just look at what a True Ranger gets at level 1:

- racial enemy

....I am very unsure just how useful this is. Demons are an obvious all-game pick (even if only 3 exist in BG1), but otherwise....it's a crappy implementation of otherwise a neat ability. A fighter will match this up and above with GM.

- wild empathy

Again, cute, but rather useless unfortunately.

- tracking

This is decent.

- stealth

Powerful ability for BG1.

- free ++ in 2 weapon style

It's ok, but nothing overly powerful. I like shields that early (and later as well).

While a True Fighter only has Offensive/Defensive Stance. If you ask me, until the fighter gets Mastery at level 3 the clear winner is the ranger.

True.

Divine Spellcasting

Camouflage - self only Invisibility?

Mmmm....Stalkers/True class I guess, instead of gaining wizard's Invisibilty this might work.

Animalistic Power - I'm not convinced myself, it's pretty much a copy of cleric/paladin Draw Upon Divine Might

Since it's Animalistic, why not disable stealth, potions and spellcasting - could work I guess (and I see a nice combo with Berserker here)

Hunter's eye - self only, +1 backstab multiplier (aka x2 for True Ranger)

Don't like it. Maybe Stalker-specific, but it would give them x5 backstab eventually. In addition, I can't exactly see Minsc backstabbing.

Snare - it's simply a Fire Trap variant which entangles instead of dealing fire damage

So, it can be casted while enemies see you etc...isn't Entangle spell pretty much the same thing? It's not like enemies avoid such spells.

True Ranger

On a side note, if we'll ever need a small nerf for Rangers, I'd dare to suggest making them get d8 HDs as per 3E (if I'm not wrong ToBEx allows to do things like this now).

I tought you were to buff them!

Wild Empathy

I am for trying to make it improve beyond a simple charm animal, hence the change of name from AD&D one to 3E one. I'm not 100% sure it's fully doable (it depends on in-game flags) but ideally I wanted to suggest making a mid-high level ranger able to charm not only "normal animals" but also magical beasts (e.g. wyverns?) or similar creatures who populate the wilderness (e.g. Drizzt managed to become a sort of friend even with a colony of myconids, but we are free to discuss the limits).

Uuuh...just how many wyverns are in BG2? Unless you want to really extend this to things such as Umber Hulks or Elementals (which I wouldn't like) it would still be useless beyond those few maps in BG1 featuring bears and wolves. BG2 isn't played in outside areas much, and ToB features almost 0 animals/beasts.

Drizzt may befriend myconids, but that's a bit silly imo. Friends with fungus?

Tracking

Yes. As a start, I'm making it a sort of temporary "stance" where the ranger moves at half speed but has a % chance to detect nearby enemies and reveal invisible ones on sight (unlike similar spells I'd like the ranger to reveal the target only after a small 3-6 sec delay). A later upgrade, inspired by PnP Swift Tracker, could reduce or even remove movement penalty, reduce or remove the time needed to reveal invisible creatures, and maybe raise the % chance.

Good.

Divine Spellcasting

Camouflage - +10 Stealth......I'd never use it, tbh.

Animalistic Power - seems very powerful. You really want to give them this spell ? (from description, it's +2 to combat stats for 1turn/level)

Hunter's eye seems nice, but I don't know how you'd implement it - giving someone a backstab ability?... I fear abuse with this.

Snare - I'm never in favour of traps.

Nature's Fervor - I'd vote for Beastmaster only, since it's casted on animals, ditto Animal Growth

Woodland Stride

As a start I actually only picked Entangle, but I'm not excluding further refinements. We might think to extend it a little bit (e.g. SRv4's Spike Growth), or we could include here a bonus to saves vs. breath considering 3E rangers have better reflex saves.

Considering the in-game value of such immunity, I agree on adding +x vs breath save.

Speaking of which, ever considered a crazy idea of implementing penalty to saves vs breath to medium/heavy armor?

Archer

I'm not exlucing later revisions of Called Shot (and yes, a higher thac0 penalty is almost a must imo) but as a start I think Fighter's ones are more than enough imo, aren't they?

Yes...but I'm slightly worried about Archer here. A high level fighter using Offensive Stance almost never misses his target (tried with Mazzy, round1 - use Called Shot, round2 - activate Offensive Stance), therefore loosing nothing apart THAC0 compared to Archer (and at mid-high levels, -4 THAC0 is irrelevant with GM in bows, not to mention enchantments bonus on arrows/bows/spells available).

I would hate to see a dedicated Archer (which is an extremely specialized kit) overshadowed by a fighter who choose bows as his weapon of choice (in addition, a fighter can obtain GM in crossbows etc. not to mention other benefits like Full-plate).

Sorry for late reply, I haven't noticed you updated 1st post here. 2 cents on the matter:

True Ranger

..........

- At 1st level, the ranger gets two points in two-weapon fighting style.

- At 4th level, gains Divine Spellcasting.

- At 5th level, gains Woodland Stride.

- At 7th level, the ranger gains an additional half attack per round. This increases to a whole attack per round bonus at 13th level.

Sounds good for a start.

If I may make a suggestion - Rangers are usually portraited as lightly armored fighters, having a bow on their back and a weapon in each hand. To make class more appealing, why not give them *** in Bows? It would (imo) make sense that they're highly proficient with it.

TRACKING:

Cool - they should have this trait and it's worthless as a HLA.

WILD EMPATHY:

I'm not against improving this to a summoning spell at later levels (Wild Dogs, Leopards (or some other cat), Bears).

DIVINE SPELLCASTING: the ranger can cast 1st level divine spells. At levels 8, 12 and 16 he can cast 2nd, 3rd and 4th level spells respectively. At level 6 and every other 4 levels he can memorize one more spell per day for each spell level he currently knows.

Limited to druid spellbook, with no elemental damage spells, I presume?

WOODLAND STRIDE: the ranger can move through any sort of undergrowth (such as natural thorns, briars, overgrown areas, and similar terrain) at his normal speed and without taking damage or suffering any other impairment.

May I ask, just what does this mean in in-game terms? Immunity to Entangle, Web, Grease? This could be interesting.

Archer

Advantages:

- Can achieve grandmastery (+++++) in short bow and long bow

- At 1st level, gains a +1 bonus to hit and damage with missile weapons. For every 4 levels, this bonus increases by +1, up to +5 at level 16.

- At 4th level, can use Called Shot once per day. For every 4 levels, the ability can be used an additional time per day.

- At 11th level, gains a +2 bonus to AC vs. missile weapons. This bonus increases by an additional +1 at levels 14 and 17.

I'm glad you decided to keep Called Shot every 4 levels.

- Called Shot currently works as the same ability from KR's True Fighter, but the Archer can perform them only with missile weapons.

Any possibilty of expanding this feature for Archers? I know you tought about Sunder already. Anyways, I can envision Archer having some extra edge on his CSs over a fighter (apart from his ranged THAC0 bonuses) like aiming the head (Daze, Confusion, Blindness), throat (Silence, bleeding), even with higher THAC0 penalty (-6).

P.S.

About Tracking - Refinements made this into a detection ability (I guess like Barbarian's Feral Senses). Are you planning on doing the same? If yes, I'm all for it. It's a nice way to make this ability useful. You might even give it to them later, or use detection ability as an upgrade at 10th level.

Any news/ideas on beta18? Hoping for some rangers.....