Druid spells need to be improved.

[Galactygon]

We should converse. Much of what you posted are already in SpellPack, but with different filenames. This will cause more issues than "one will override the other".

Will do, though I think it's always a matter of installing either one or the other when it comes to overlapping SP-SR spells.

Well, Galactygon and Mike1072 have been plotting against you, and they intend to... hih, no, actually not. But I read that Galactygon intends to remake the SpellPack a bit and make it more compatible with everything else, so it could go somewhat well with other spell mods too, like the Spell revision, as it doesn't need to overwrite the existing spells anymore(insert commercial ad for the Tob Extender mod).

And like I always say, there's never enough spells to choose from.

-Well, except if you install 3 mods that have three just slightly different 'Hold Monster' spell, or three different Fireball spells that only different themselves with the damage impacted, then it goes a bit over...

 

SpellPack B6 will still override existing spells. The reason is most spells are rewritten, to such a degree it is pointless to patch. Only spells with minor changes (such as reducing the area of effect of a fireball, or changing visuals) will be patches. The difference between B5 and B6 is you will have the option to override them one at a time, spell-by-spell.

 

-Galactygon

[Guest Guest_tom_*]

I think priests fill a role, just like warriors fill a role, and wizards fill a role. (i don't think thieves fill much of a role out of traps and locks, which is why I wouldn't ever go for a pure class thief in my party)

 

What I do think is imbalanced (assuming you play with IR/SR/SCS), is clerics vs druids. Why would you take someone like Jaheira over someone like Anomen? What do druids offer than makes up for the disadvantages?

[Guest Guest_tom_*]

I think priests fill a role, just like warriors fill a role, and wizards fill a role. (i don't think thieves fill much of a role out of traps and locks, which is why I wouldn't ever go for a pure class thief in my party)

 

What I do think is imbalanced (assuming you play with IR/SR/SCS), is clerics vs druids. Why would you take someone like Jaheira over someone like Anomen? What do druids offer than makes up for the disadvantages?

 

I'll admit I haven't actually played as a druid in a modded game, but the apparent disadvantages turn me off. If anyone can enlighten me on the advantages of say Jaheira/Cernd over Anomen, I'd love to hear them and be proved wrong.

[Demivrgvs]

I think priests fill a role, just like warriors fill a role, and wizards fill a role. (i don't think thieves fill much of a role out of traps and locks, which is why I wouldn't ever go for a pure class thief in my party)

 

What I do think is imbalanced (assuming you play with IR/SR/SCS), is clerics vs druids. Why would you take someone like Jaheira over someone like Anomen? What do druids offer than makes up for the disadvantages?

The reply most players would probably give you is Stoneskin and Insect Plague. The former allows Jaheira to actually fill the "tank" role better than Anomen in many circumstances, the latter (as well as its lesser or greater versions) is one of the most effective multi-purpose spell in the entire game.

 

The long reply instead is that druid's spellcasting abilities are quite different from clerics, especially within SR. While clerics mainly focus on buffs, druids have more offensive spells. I don't know if it helps, but druid's spellbook imo is a sort of mix between cleric, invoker and transmuter's spellbooks.

 

If you really need more in depth details I may try to put down a list of druid-only spells and explain their advantages (Faerie Fire, Sunscorch, Fire Trap, Call Lightning, ...), but it's better imo if you just try to pick Jaheira and see for yourself (don't hesitate to ask for help or tips if needed). Anomen is indeed a powerhouse (though mainly because of how unbalanced the dual classing thing is), but within a SR+IR installation I can assure you Jaheira is no less powerful when you learn how to use her.

[DavidW]

I think priests fill a role, just like warriors fill a role, and wizards fill a role. (i don't think thieves fill much of a role out of traps and locks, which is why I wouldn't ever go for a pure class thief in my party)

 

What I do think is imbalanced (assuming you play with IR/SR/SCS), is clerics vs druids. Why would you take someone like Jaheira over someone like Anomen? What do druids offer than makes up for the disadvantages?

 

Just to comment from the bad guys' perspective: the total absence of any spell that makes clerics impossible to injure makes it very hard indeed to get enemy clerics to function effectively; Iron Skins means that things are completely different for druids. And insect plague is so overwhelmingly effective as an attack spell that it's one of the few spells that SCS tones down.

[amanasleep]

To add to what David said about Druids:

 

There are 3 really good reasons why Druids are good in SoA:

 

Insect Plague

Ironskins

Summon Fire Elemental

 

That plus their quick progression to D12 means that you have access to three spells that cannot be reliably reproduced by any other class at the same level. That having been said, the Cleric is the better solo character since their defenses are superior. Nevertheless there aren't many problems in vanilla that can't be solved by insects and a bunch of FE's.

 

In ToB, Single classed Druids are arguably better than Single Classed Clerics, except for Turning, which unbalances the equation somewhat.

 

The reason for this is:

 

Nature's Beauty

 

This spell is vastly more powerful than anything a Cleric can get, including HLA's (maybe Deva is better, by Druids get all that and more).

 

Druids in ToB also get an amazing access to 6 L7 slots right from the beginning, which allow them to make much better use of their Quest spells than clerics can.

[Demivrgvs]

Fire Elementals

There are 3 really good reasons why Druids are good in SoA:

 

Insect Plague

Ironskins

Summon Fire Elemental

 

That plus their quick progression to D12 means that you have access to three spells that cannot be reliably reproduced by any other class at the same level. That having been said, the Cleric is the better solo character since their defenses are superior. Nevertheless there aren't many problems in vanilla that can't be solved by insects and a bunch of FE's.

I have to make few notes because this is a SR topic.

 

SR's Fire Elementals are not the god-like summons of vanilla. They are still immune to non-magical weapons, but not to +1 ones. The latter was making them really too exploitable in many circumstances. At the same time though I can confirm that Druids are great summoners too. SR grants them Air and Earth Elementals, improves the Animal Summoning serie of spells, and adds a really powerful 7th lvl summon, the Shambling Mound.

 

Regarding the lame xp table, I highly recommend to use Tweak Pack in order to make it work as cleric's one, because their vanilla's lvl progression is kinda broken.

 

Nature's Beauty

In ToB, Single classed Druids are arguably better than Single Classed Clerics, except for Turning, which unbalances the equation somewhat.

 

The reason for this is:

 

Nature's Beauty

 

This spell is vastly more powerful than anything a Cleric can get, including HLA's (maybe Deva is better, by Druids get all that and more).

Nature's Beauty within SR is not a game breaking spell anymore, and yes it was really game breaking, because the AI cannot properly handle Blindness at all, making this spell a ridiculously powerful mass disabling spell (and by 'disabling' I mean targets stand there like idiots) with no save , which bypasses almost any protection (not to mention 'immunity to blindness' is by far one of the most uncommon resistance).

 

Descriptions issue

Oh i think i got it. I was testing it on bg1 tutu and there it worked just fine. So i downloaded the official bg 2 patch (english this time) and the bg2 fixpack before installing "spell revisions". Now the spells seems to work properly (have a funny english german mix in my game now though)

I'm glad everything is fine. Actually I do have a german translation ready, but I'm waiting for a new release to add it.

[amanasleep]

Regarding the lame xp table, I highly recommend to use Tweak Pack in order to make it work as cleric's one, because their vanilla's lvl progression is kinda broken.

 

I actually like the vanilla Druid lvl progression!

 

Basically, Druids rise to power rapidly, then plateau around D12-13. They still reach D14 right around the same time as Clerics, after which Clerics continue to gain levels while Druids are stuck. But once a Druid gets D15, watch out!

[Demivrgvs]

Druid's Xp Table

Regarding the lame xp table, I highly recommend to use Tweak Pack in order to make it work as cleric's one, because their vanilla's lvl progression is kinda broken.

I actually like the vanilla Druid lvl progression!

 

Basically, Druids rise to power rapidly, then plateau around D12-13. They still reach D14 right around the same time as Clerics, after which Clerics continue to gain levels while Druids are stuck. But once a Druid gets D15, watch out!

Well, you're obvioulsy free to like it , but from a balancing point of view it's completely broken.

 

For example it makes almost impossible to balance their spellbook considering how many spells they share with clerics. All their spells improves faster due to their ridiculously fast lvl ups (e.g. they actually are better healers early on; they dispel better than clerics, and much better than mages; etc), they gain access to powerful spells too early (e.g. in vanilla early Fire Elementals could wipe out entire dungeons), and they get lvl related advantages too fast (e.g. HD checks to resist things like Sleep and Chaos). After that they are stuck at L12-13 for really too much time, making them behave quite strangely in terms of efficiency, then they make a couple of absurdly slow but huge steps taking L14 and L15, and finally they are seriously left behind in terms of lvls because getting to L16+ takes an eternity.

 

All of this is even worse when you take into account lvl related bonues for classes, like hps, thac0 and saves. Surely I cannot have Kit Revisions druids go with such xp table, as I wouldn't be able to handle that mess while trying to make a balanced class and its kits.

[amanasleep]

Well, you're obvioulsy free to like it , but from a balancing point of view it's completely broken.

 

For example it makes almost impossible to balance their spellbook considering how many spells they share with clerics. All their spells improves faster due to their ridiculously fast lvl ups (e.g. they actually are better healers early on; they dispel better than clerics, and much better than mages; etc), they gain access to powerful spells too early (e.g. in vanilla early Fire Elementals could wipe out entire dungeons), and they get lvl related advantages too fast (e.g. HD checks to resist things like Sleep and Chaos). After that they are stuck at L12-13 for really too much time, making them behave quite strangely in terms of efficiency, then they make a couple of absurdly slow but huge steps taking L14 and L15, and finally they are seriously left behind in terms of lvls because getting to L16+ takes an eternity.

 

All of this is even worse when you take into account lvl related bonues for classes, like hps, thac0 and saves. Surely I cannot have Kit Revisions druids go with such xp table, as I wouldn't be able to handle that mess while trying to make a balanced class and its kits.

 

Is it unbalanced for Bards to dispel better than Clerics and Mages? The level checks to resist Sleep and Chaos they don't get, since levels 1-5 are actually slower than Clerics.

 

Druids need faster levels to compensate for a weaker overall spell list, no turning, etc. And it's not really so unbalanced as you say. Druids to D13 basically get +3 levels on clerics, which means more FE's, sure, but you've nerfed FE, right? Then they both hit 14 at about the same time, after which Clerics jump ahead in power until the end of SoA (or 3 mill XP). Druids miss out on 7 levels here, which is alot, but it's really only 4 thac0, about the same on all saves, and 14 HP. The real thing missing is the L7 spell slots, which the Cleric gets 2 more of.

 

But then HLA's kick in and Druids catch up rapidly and even surpass Clerics, with Clerics finally catching up only near the ToB level cap.

 

So over the course of an entire game, Druids and Clerics are balanced, but they are rarely at exactly the same power level.

 

In vanilla, the power levels are like this:

 

0-12,500 xp, Clerics

12,500-1,125,000 xp, Druids

1,125,000-2,999,999 xp, Clerics

3,000,000-4,500,000 xp, Druids

4,500,000-8,000,000 xp, Clerics

 

The only real bear in terms of level ups is L14-15. This would have been fine if BG2 had some Druid contents so players could enjoy the trip to Archdruid and hierophant.

 

The problem you're having is that Druids are balanced in vanilla, but don't fit your balancing schemes.

[Demivrgvs]

Druid's xp Table

Is it unbalanced for Bards to dispel better than Clerics and Mages?

I let players decide that, but having druids (who focus on invocations, transmutations, and conjurations) dispel better than clerics (who focus on abjurations and buffs in general) and mages (even a specialist Abjurer) seems strange from a rp point of view.

 

The level checks to resist Sleep and Chaos they don't get, since levels 1-5 are actually slower than Clerics.

In this case I was talking about SR's HD checks which are not capped (note that spells like Color Spray and Chaos are not capped within PnP, thus I'm not re-inventing the wheel).

 

Druids need faster levels to compensate for a weaker overall spell list, no turning, etc.

Druids bad spell list is developer's fault, in PnP they have a great spell selection. Within SR for example I prefer druid's 1st lvl spells by far (e.g. Entangle, Faerie Fire and Sunscorch). I could surely give them a crappy spell list to balance the fast lvl ups, but it seems a really lame design choice.

 

And it's not really so unbalanced as you say. Druids to D13 basically get +3 levels on clerics, which means more FE's, sure, but you've nerfed FE, right?

I've made them not "exploitable" because of their +1 immunity, but they still are incredibly powerful, even slightly more than before (they lost the immunity but they got physical damage resistance and slightly better stats and qualities).

 

Then they both hit 14 at about the same time, after which Clerics jump ahead in power until the end of SoA (or 3 mill XP). Druids miss out on 7 levels here, which is alot, but it's really only 4 thac0, about the same on all saves, and 14 HP. The real thing missing is the L7 spell slots, which the Cleric gets 2 more of.

Well +4 thac0, 14 hps and +1-2 on all saves isn't something I can ignore, especially on a class that can be used in melee. And this gap is there for a really long part of the game, almost all SoA!

 

But then HLA's kick in and Druids catch up rapidly and even surpass Clerics, with Clerics finally catching up only near the ToB level cap.

Eh? Where's the surpass part? At L15+ druids always remain more ore less 6-7 lvls behind! Sure they get a huge boost in terms of 7th lvl slots at L15, but at the cost of being quite behind in terms of lvls. That means their spells are still not maximized (the cap is at 20th lvl), and that their buffs are uber easy to dispel (this is a huge thing imo, because Stoneskin buff is critical).

 

So over the course of an entire game, Druids and Clerics are balanced, but they are rarely at exactly the same power level.

Balanced? You said yourself they continue to surpass each other for consistent parts of the game.

 

If the above things aren't enough, let's check BG1 xp cap and notice that clerics are stuck with 4th lvl spells, while druids get 5th lvl ones, which amongst other things means Stoneskin and Insect Plague!

 

The problem you're having is that Druids are balanced in vanilla, but don't fit your balancing schemes.

Yeah, they are so balanced that times over times tons of players create topics like "druid spells don't need to be improved", "druids are so cool"! Anyway, if by now you haven't convinced me and I haven't convinced you I suppose we can only agree to disagree.