Druid spells need to be improved.

[Ardanis]

In other words, meat shields of an inferior quality. I said that already.

Of course. Did anyone suggest to use them as true tanks? No, Demi said they can, if needed, to hang out in combat without dying instantly.

 

Uh, no it can't. Fighters can't buff, mages can't heal.

This statement says that priests are even better than a mere multiclass.

 

Just saying something doesn't make it true. You have no argument here.

You've answered that yourself -

There's plenty of alternatives. For example, Improved Haste+BBoD+Tenser's, Timestop or Stun allow for instant hits, Shapechange (in game and P&P versions are very susceptible of abuse), Melf's meteors give free hits between spells and plenty of attacks, and several others, all that could be coupled with Mirror Image, Stoneskin, Protection from magical weapons. etc.

And wizards need to carefully watch over their protections, unlike twice-as-durable priests they won't survive a couple of strong attacks that penetrate their weakened defences.

[Daulmakan]

In other words, meat shields of an inferior quality. I said that already.

Of course. Did anyone suggest to use them as true tanks? No, Demi said they can, if needed, to hang out in combat without dying instantly.

I think now you're just arguing for the sake of it. It's exactly the same thing I said earlier, they can do a bit of both spamming offensive spells and going melee, but for each of that activity separate, you'll never choose them over a mage or a fighter.

 

Uh, no it can't. Fighters can't buff, mages can't heal.

This statement says that priests are even better than a mere multiclass.

This statement makes no sense whatsoever.

 

You've answered that yourself -...

Ditto the above.

 

And wizards need to carefully watch over their protections, unlike twice-as-durable priests they won't survive a couple of strong attacks that penetrate their weakened defences.

What? Stoneskins lasts 8 hours and can very easily (and speedily) be renewed. PFMW makes a fighter completely useless for 4 rounds (save for the "I carry a nonmagical weapon just in case" thing, which can't get through Stoneskin anyway), more than enough time. And that's not even counting contingencies. Priests can get hit (and thus, also interrupted) regardless of any protection they can come up with. And at very high levels, with lowest THAC0s and AC reaching its limit, clerics' AC buffs are almost meaningless. They'll get hit regardless. It's better not to be hit at all. and they can't provide that for themselves. In game, they're sitting ducks for backstabs too, as they can't take it as well as fighters nor can they make their attackers pay in that round they come out of hiding with their measly 1 attack per round. They can go invisible/sanctuarised, but that makes them almost useless (only healing spells, not really an advantage becoming visible just to attack once per round), while rogues thrive with hit & run tactics.

 

Are you really trying to say that high level clerics are more powerful than high level wizards??

[Ardanis]

they can do a bit of both spamming offensive spells and going melee, but for each of that activity separate, you'll never choose them over a mage or a fighter.

Yes, I'll use them to back up whoever needs that most, depending on the situation. Why do you see it as a sign of total inferiority, however, is beyond me.

 

This statement makes no sense whatsoever.

As you've said yourself neither fighters can buff, nor wizards can heal (though they can still buff a bit), so priests not only take both tasks, but also can supplement those two classes in their profession.

 

You've answered that yourself -...

Ditto the above.

Count how many spells you'd be using for making a killer wizard and how many for priest. Then add the constant need to renew Stoneskin and PFMW.

Unless you've meant something else talking about 'micromanagement'.

 

Are you really trying to say that high level clerics are more powerful than high level wizards??

When it comes to spellcasting? No, I'm not. And nobody is.

In dealing melee damage and resisting attacks - comparable to fighters, when under buffs. And no, wizards can't go melee without equally heavy buffing.

Surviving without any buff whatsoever - good enough, compared to wizards/rogues.

[Hoo]

Back to druids.

Their general lack of heavy armor is well compensated by the Barkskin spell. Coupled with Stoneskin, they can cast without a fear of interruption. Use this time to Entangle and Insect foes, and then Call Lightning them to death. Powerful summons too, namely elementals. Lastly, druids get thee shapeshifting, which, while not much effective in vanilla game, is hopefully something that can be rebalanced within KR.

 

 

Reply:

I know what you want to say, almost guys don't know why I posted this topic. As I mentioned first, what I'm complaining is low level spells of druid which is not so good such as Shillelagh and Magical Stone. Though I'm satisfied his high level spells from 4th to 7th, lower spells need to be improved, I think.

 

Wizard already have the spells which you mentioned as more powerful or same things. And also, normally wizard's protection spells such as Protection from Magic Energy, Protection from Magical Weapons, and so on is more helpful than druid's healing spells. Since wizard can protect himself perfactly by using the spells, he doesn't need to cast healing spells.

 

However, I don't want to compare them because they have a lot of different concepts. I think that druid should compare with cleric. They share many things.

 

Actually, as you know, druid was not so good as cleric in original SoA and ToB games. And what I want to say is that though this mod has been released the druid is still weaker than cleric.

[Daulmakan]

they can do a bit of both spamming offensive spells and going melee, but for each of that activity separate, you'll never choose them over a mage or a fighter.

Yes, I'll use them to back up whoever needs that most, depending on the situation. Why do you see it as a sign of total inferiority, however, is beyond me.

It's just the way it is. In that instance, full melee or offensive spellcasting, they are inferior (as in less powerful), so as a single piece, they're less valuable. Doesn't mean they aren't fun to play, don't have their own other merits, and so on. You're the one trying to attach a cualitative conclusion to all this, not me.

 

This statement makes no sense whatsoever.

As you've said yourself neither fighters can buff, nor wizards can heal (though they can still buff a bit), so priests not only take both tasks, but also can supplement those two classes in their profession.

Again, that was what I said before. They can do both but excell at neither.

 

Count how many spells you'd be using for making a killer wizard and how many for priest. Then add the constant need to renew Stoneskin and PFMW.

Unless you've meant something else talking about 'micromanagement'.

Constant need? Stoneskin lasts plenty. Timestop, Contingency, Simulacrum, Power Word Silence, Melf's meteors, Melf's acid arrow to interrupt rivals every round unless they act last, possibilities are endless. And they've got plenty of debuffing spells to boot (Khelben, Remove/Dispel Magic, Spellstrike, etc.). What's the cleric's choice? Dispel Magic? And what's the best a cleric can do anyway? Divine Power? Shield of the Archons? Holy Word? Storm of Vengeance?(assuming of course he has the proper major acces to the relevant spheres).

 

Really, this isn't even a discussion.

 

 

 

Back to druids.

Yep. Continue please.

[Ardanis]

Stoneskin lasts plenty

I meant in combat, where it lasts 2-3 rounds at most, or couple more is wizard has some good AC.

 

Really, this isn't even a discussion.

Indeed. Arguing that a multipurpose character is apriori weaker than pureclass specialist is just silly.

 

Back to druids

Since it's been mentioned, shouldn't they have animal spells at lower levels? They're druids, after all. It's somewhat problematic because there're very few animals available, though. Snakes, non-dire versions, and..? Maybe differentiate within groups, say leopards and tigers, brown bears and dire grizzlies.

[Shaitan]

normal spiders?

[Demivrgvs]

Cleric vs other classes

Daulmakan, it seems to me you consider the Cleric a weak class compared to others only because their kill-ratio is lower than fighters and mages. You seem to forget, or not take it into account, that the cleric's ability to support the party is invaluable. Clerics can heal your characters, cure diseases, neutralize poisons, protect from level drains, and so on. Things like Free Action, Death Ward and Chaotic Command can make your already powerful fighters into unstoppable war-machines. A mage can't do anything like that, nor a fighter. The cleric can do all those things, and then act as a secondary spellcaster (Holy Smite and Unholy Blight are the best mid-low lvl AoE damage dealing spells), or as a temporary backup tank (Armor of Faith, Divine Might, Divine Power, ...).

 

That being said, you are not talking about SR's Cleric, which somehow cripple the whole discussion imo, as SR eliminates some of your most recurrent complains. SR's Divine Power grants additional attack per rounds for example, and there's no restricting "sphere system" to limit cleric's vast arsenal of spells.

 

 

Druid's spells

I know what you want to say, almost guys don't know why I posted this topic. As I mentioned first, what I'm complaining is low level spells of druid which is not so good such as Shillelagh and Magical Stone. Though I'm satisfied his high level spells from 4th to 7th, lower spells need to be improved, I think.

Ah ok, on this I'm more inclined to agree, though mainly for 2nd lvl slots. Spells such as Sunscorch and Faerie Fire for example were really good add-ons to druids imo, because they covered something low level druids were missing, a damage dealing spell, and an anti-invisibility spell.

 

That being said, I already did a very long research on possible new spells because quite a few players asked for it like you, and some helped me out discussing them (you can try to search those discussions in this forum). There aren't many spells we can add, and I've reduced the list to something like this:

 

1° Sleep (NWN gives it to druids but it doesn't seem to belong to any of the druid's domains, which are Elemental, Animal, Weather, Sun and to a lesser extent Divination and Necromancy. That being said, it surely makes more sense than druid's casting Doom)

2° Blood Frenzy (sort of Animal Rage) or Animalistic Power (druid equivalent of Draw Upon Divine Might), Alicorn Lance, Creeping Cold, Moon Motes

3° Moonblade (vanilla's Phantom Blade), Spike Growth, Tremor (lesser Earthquake)

4° Thorn Spray

5° Animal Rage, Animal Growth, Smashing Wave, Spike Stone

6° Stonehold (sort of Fleh to Stone), Whirlwind

 

 

Animal Summoning

Since it's been mentioned, shouldn't they have animal spells at lower levels? They're druids, after all. It's somewhat problematic because there're very few animals available, though. Snakes, non-dire versions, and..? Maybe differentiate within groups, say leopards and tigers, brown bears and dire grizzlies.

Well, before we discussed to make a Monster Summoning spell for each lvl I had a similar idea for druids, though less extended. I planned to move all AS spells one lvl down, and restore Conjure Animals for the 6th lvl slot. Thus you would have something like this: wolf (3HD - their "pack" bonuses are quite great imo), Leopard (4HD - is their 'spring attack' feature good?), Giant Snake (5HD - with poison), Grizzly Bear (9HD). If we want a 1st and 2nd lvl variant there's very little choice, I can only thing of rats (1HD - with disease) and war dogs (2HD).

[Jarno Mikkola]

This: "War Between Class A vs. other", is the stupidest idea ever...

 

assuming of course he has the proper major acces to the relevant spheres

Erhm perhaps, we might want to point out that as the SR has no sphere system or a support for one, your thinking might be rooted on Divine Remix and it's sphere system... and the whole let's make priest of this religion to be fighters but bad once at that... in which you have turned the table against yourself, still thinking that clerics should be as good fighters as true fighters.

 

In reality, the game consists of 4 basic arch-classes; Fighter(Warrior), Cleric(Divine caster), Thief(Rogue), Mage(Arcane caster)... each have their strong points, and there is really no mixing between them, unless you wish to be more of one of the others, then you need to be less of the original one. The sub-classes and kits are just minor alterations to bring in variation.

Things like Free Action, Death Ward and Chaotic Command can make your already powerful fighters into unstoppable war-machines.

I seem to remember that the 3 Fireballs I send after your behind go through all those fine, so unstoppable, nothing is unstoppable.

Now, how about that roast then. And the original topic, more druid spells; 30 per level would be nice.

[Galactygon]

That being said, I already did a very long research on possible new spells because quite a few players asked for it like you, and some helped me out discussing them (you can try to search those discussions in this forum). There aren't many spells we can add, and I've reduced the list to something like this:

 

1° Sleep (NWN gives it to druids but it doesn't seem to belong to any of the druid's domains, which are Elemental, Animal, Weather, Sun and to a lesser extent Divination and Necromancy. That being said, it surely makes more sense than druid's casting Doom)

2° Blood Frenzy (sort of Animal Rage) or Animalistic Power (druid equivalent of Draw Upon Divine Might), Alicorn Lance, Creeping Cold, Moon Motes

3° Moonblade (vanilla's Phantom Blade), Spike Growth, Tremor (lesser Earthquake)

4° Thorn Spray

5° Animal Rage, Animal Growth, Smashing Wave, Spike Stone

6° Stonehold (sort of Fleh to Stone), Whirlwind

 

We should converse. Much of what you posted are already in SpellPack, but with different filenames. This will cause more issues than "one will override the other".

 

-Galactygon

[Constantine]

In other words, meat shields of an inferior quality. I said that already.

Of course. Did anyone suggest to use them as true tanks? No, Demi said they can, if needed, to hang out in combat without dying instantly.

I think now you're just arguing for the sake of it. It's exactly the same thing I said earlier, they can do a bit of both spamming offensive spells and going melee, but for each of that activity separate, you'll never choose them over a mage or a fighter.

well, maybe YOU wouldn't, but someone else surely would.

 

this whole discussion reminds me the ol good fighter vs mage theme. if you think priests are too pathetic, I suggest you just play another, more "tough" class, for there's a plenty of them available.

[Jarno Mikkola]

if you think priests are too pathetic, I suggest you just play another, more "tough" class, for there's a plenty of them available.

What class would you classify as a "tough" one ? If there is so many of them... because in my view, all the classes are quite equal, as long as you use them the right way, and that the class is not a Monk, as I am yet to master the use of that class.

And let's keep this in the unmodified game, as the mods can do whatever the installer wants them to do, so no SCSII's, tweak mods etc.

[Constantine]

if you think priests are too pathetic, I suggest you just play another, more "tough" class, for there's a plenty of them available.

 

What class would you classify as a "tough" one ?

Well, the Daulmakan guy has no complaints about fighters and mages, so this classes

might be considered as 'tough'

If there is so many of them... because in my view, all the classes are quite equal, as long as you use them the right way, and that the class is not a Monk, as I am yet to master the use of that class.

And let's keep this in the unmodified game, as the mods can do whatever the installer wants them to do, so no SCSII's, tweak mods etc.

I agree. In case you're playing solo, some classes are nearly impossible to beat the game with, though.

[Demivrgvs]

That being said, I already did a very long research on possible new spells because quite a few players asked for it like you, and some helped me out discussing them (you can try to search those discussions in this forum). There aren't many spells we can add, and I've reduced the list to something like this:

 

1° Sleep (NWN gives it to druids but it doesn't seem to belong to any of the druid's domains, which are Elemental, Animal, Weather, Sun and to a lesser extent Divination and Necromancy. That being said, it surely makes more sense than druid's casting Doom)

2° Blood Frenzy (sort of Animal Rage) or Animalistic Power (druid equivalent of Draw Upon Divine Might), Alicorn Lance, Creeping Cold, Moon Motes

3° Moonblade (vanilla's Phantom Blade), Spike Growth, Tremor (lesser Earthquake)

4° Thorn Spray

5° Animal Rage, Animal Growth, Smashing Wave, Spike Stone

6° Stonehold (sort of Fleh to Stone), Whirlwind

We should converse. Much of what you posted are already in SpellPack, but with different filenames. This will cause more issues than "one will override the other".

Will do, though I think it's always a matter of installing either one or the other when it comes to overlapping SP-SR spells.

[Jarno Mikkola]

We should converse. Much of what you posted are already in SpellPack, but with different filenames. This will cause more issues than "one will override the other".

Will do, though I think it's always a matter of installing either one or the other when it comes to overlapping SP-SR spells.

Well, Galactygon and Mike1072 have been plotting against you, and they intend to... hih, no, actually not. But I read that Galactygon intends to remake the SpellPack a bit and make it more compatible with everything else, so it could go somewhat well with other spell mods too eventually, like the Spell revision, as it doesn't need to overwrite the existing spells anymore(insert commercial ad for the Tob Extender mod).

And like I always say, there's never enough spells to choose from.

-Well, except if you install 3 mods that have three just slightly different 'Hold Monster' spell, or three different Fireball spells that only different themselves with the damage impacted, then it goes a bit over...