Opposite schools and specialist mages

[kreso]

This easy to test: install the Wizard Class Tweaks from my mod (in my sig) and see if SCS mages ever use Spell Thrust against you. I

Hm. They will use ST regardless of your mod.

Anyhow, I'll try it out - I'm fairly curious about this.

 

 

For level based effects, you can add a PATCH_IF and check the CRE for the right level. Something like

COPY_REGEXP (all creatures)
READ_BYTE/SHORT/LONG (kit offset)
PATCH_IF (kit = enchanter)
READ_BYTE/SHORT/LONG (level offset)
PATCH_IF (level < 17)
ADD_CRE_EFFECT (+2 saves)
END
PATCH_IF (level >= 17)
ADD_CRE_EFFECT (+4 saves)
END
END

Something like that. I don't have time to give you real code because I'm working 7 days a week for the next month but it's totally doable.

 

I'll play around with it, to see if I can make something out of it. Mind you, it wasn't until 2 days ago that I actually managed to combine two hex values into one which actually does what I want it to do.

[subtledoctor]

They will use ST regardless of your mod.

Well, my point is, with my mod ST is an innate ability. So if they use it with the mod installed, then you have confirmation that SCS scripts will make use of innate abilities.

 

What matters is the tag in SPELL.IDS. So I'f you make an innate version of Charm Person and add it to SPELL.IDS as "WIZARD_SUNFIRE," then SCS will check to see if the mage has Sunfire memorized... If you patch the CRE file to have your innate ability, then SCS will say to itself "oh yes, this mage has Sunfire memorized" and then cast your innate ability whenever the script calls for it to cast Sunfire.

 

That's my theoretical way to manipulate SCS to use custom spells. I do not know what will happen if a mage has Sunfire memorized *and* has your innate. Probably best to remove any memorized spells. (This might have to be done after SCS.) There is a REMOVE_CRE_EFFECT macro (or something like that), you can see how I use it to remove proficiencies from NPCs by looking about 8,000 lines down in my mod's .tp2 file. I believe it can be used to remove memorized spells.

 

I forgot above, in case it's not obvious, any time you do a COPY_REGEXP, make sure you have a BUT_ONLY at the end of it, to avoid doing extra copies and cluttering your override folder.

[kreso]

 

Well, my point is, with my mod ST is an innate ability.

Aha...so once you learn it, you get it *only* as a spammable innate?

 

 

I forgot above, in case it's not obvious, any time you do a COPY_REGEXP, make sure you have a BUT_ONLY at the end of it, to avoid doing extra copies and cluttering your override folder.

Got it, thanks. I'll take a break from it anyway, I'm burnt out on checking everything and writing COPY this and that.

[subtledoctor]

Aha...so once you learn it, you get it *only* as a spammable innate?

 

Yes.

 

Meantime, here's my take on wizard kits with *no* opposition schools. It's very much a beta at the moment. Enchanters are only two-thirds done, and I haven't touched Conjurers at all. (I don't know how to make these auras that you guys are doing in KR... but yeah an aura buffing all friendly creatures within 30 feet with gender = 6 or 20 would basically be exactly what I'm looking for to complete this...)

 

http://gibberlings3.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=27228&page=3&do=findComment&comment=235139

[kreso]

Cool. I'm taking a pause from this tho. On a sidenote, do Illusionist use "Non-detection" opcode?

[subtledoctor]

Cool. I'm taking a pause from this tho. On a sidenote, do Illusionist use "Non-detection" opcode?

Ha ha I share so you could play with it, not as a code donation. Though, feel free to use any part of it that you happen to like.

 

If SR is installed, it converts SR's NonDetection into a permanent effect. If no SR, it turns vanilla NonDetection into a permanent effect.

 

I seem to recall that both versions of the spell use the opcode... but I'm not 100% sure.

 

Why?

[kreso]

 

Why?

 

I'm curious about what Non-Detection means in your tweaks. Is it an opcode (I know there is one named as such) or do you add adittional effects to it? Because Non-Detection (as per opcode) means that if your illusionist is stealthed he won't be revealed by Illusion-dispellers (but SR's True Seeing will allow AI mages to "see" him). While this may be cute for illusionst/thief, for a straight illusionist this is irrelevant - he can't use stealth at all.

I'll check out your code, hope an urge to do some other Baldur-related stuff other than playing comes soon.

[subtledoctor]

Well yeah everything works better with SR

 

I forget... NonDetection is bugged in vanilla, doesn't work? Or, the spell doesn't work but the Cloak does? Maybe I can apply the Cloak's effect as a kit ability.

 

Or maybe just give full-on SI:Div... but that would mean an illusionist could *never* be targeted by enemy spells... hmm, that seems OP. See, everything is better with SR!

[kreso]

Well yeah everything works better with SR

 

I forget... NonDetection is bugged in vanilla, doesn't work? Or, the spell doesn't work but the Cloak does? Maybe I can apply the Cloak's effect as a kit ability.

 

Or maybe just give full-on SI:Div... but that would mean an illusionist could *never* be targeted by enemy spells... hmm, that seems OP. See, everything is better with SR!

Afaik ND (both spell and cloak) works if you're stealthed or using some vanilla items which don't have a secondary spell type illusion (example vanilla Ring of Invisibility - maybe Fixpack changed this so the spell is properly marked as illusion, I think aVenger wrote some code to fix such stuff).

It prevents *vanilla* TS and similar from working.

With SR, AI caster under TS has the same benefits as a Lich/Dragon/Demon - he couldn't care less about your invisibility/Non-detection and similar.

I wanted to make my own Illusionist immune to that (they loose 3 schools, including Abjuration, so I wanted something powerful) but I don't think it's possible. You cannot give immunity to "invisibility detection via script" that SR uses on True Seeing, since that affects caster, not the illusionist.

I settled for a bunch of other stuff as immunities - any effect which removes invisibility; this includes opcode 101 pro effect vs:

47 Remove invisibility

70 Remove NonDetection

116 Detect Invisibility

136 Force visible

I also added 225, I don't know why.

It's in k1cl426 from the package, feel free to use it or take the idea. I think it's the best I could do to make him "less detectable".

[Demivrgvs]

Afaik ND (both spell and cloak) works if you're stealthed or using some vanilla items which don't have a secondary spell type illusion (example vanilla Ring of Invisibility - maybe Fixpack changed this so the spell is properly marked as illusion, I think aVenger wrote some code to fix such stuff).

It prevents *vanilla* TS and similar from working.

Just to be clear, Non-detection did not prevented vanilla TS and similar from working. As kreso says, only hide in shadow and few invisibility effects not flagged as illusions were not dispelled by TS if protected by ND.

 

Unfortunately, the new PnP-like TS cannot be fully stopped by ND, but I don't even think it should. ND will still make the protected creature immune from divination spells, and if an enemy can see invisible creatures "just because he does" he would still not be able to dispel such invisibility. ND is just an anti-divination protection, not a "you cannot see me".

 

Btw, if you make an Illusionist able to make himself completely impossible to be seen even by a Diviner, then you are making the former the "superior kit" imo. I think it makes more sense for Diviners to have some counter to their clearly opposite magic users as long as the Illusionist keeps partial protection from his illusions. That's why SR's divination spells no longer fully destroy illusions and illusionary protections.

[subtledoctor]

Hm. Here's what I would *like* the permanent ND to do:

 

Non-SR:

 

1) Illusionist and generalist cast Invisibility. Opponent casts Detect Invisible/Invisibility Purge/True Sight. Generalist becomes visible and targetable, illusionist stays invisible. Illusionist now attacks or casts a spell... now he becomes visible and targetable.

 

2) They both cast Improved Invisibility. They both attack or cast a spell, becoming 'partially' visible but not targetable with spells. Now an opponent casts True Sight; the generalist becomes fully visible and targetable, while the illusionist remains only partially visible, and not targetable by spells. This would be extremely, extremely powerful, but I inly play with SR so I don't really care.

 

With SR:

 

1) Invisibility: same behavior. Would an opponent with True Seeing active be able to target the illusionist? I hope not.

 

2) Improved Invisibility: same behavior except that, while 'partially' visible, an opponent with True Seeing active WILL be able to target the illusionist with spells. The benefits of ND would be (should be, anyway) a) the initial invisibility is not broken until he breaks cover, allowing him to maneuver as needed and 'shoot first (a limited benefit, but could be very useful), and b) improved invisibility is not broken so he still gets the AC & save bonuses.

 

I think the vanilla version would act that way if I used full-on SI:Div, so maybe that's what I need to do.

 

I think the SR version should be working as intended, based on what I've read about SR ND, since I'm using Demi's ND in that case.

 

I don't care about creatures scripted to see invisible... it would be nice if I could change that but it doesn't seem possible so who cares. I care mostly about giving illusionists the ability to 'shoot first' against other mages, and to maintain the melee defenses of II.

[kreso]

Hm. Here's what I would *like* the permanent ND to do:

 

Non-SR:

 

1) Illusionist and generalist cast Invisibility. Opponent casts Detect Invisible/Invisibility Purge/True Sight. Generalist becomes visible and targetable, illusionist stays invisible. Illusionist now attacks or casts a spell... now he becomes visible and targetable.

 

2) They both cast Improved Invisibility. They both attack or cast a spell, becoming 'partially' visible but not targetable with spells. Now an opponent casts True Sight; the generalist becomes fully visible and targetable, while the illusionist remains only partially visible, and not targetable by spells. This would be extremely, extremely powerful, but I inly play with SR so I don't really care.

For invisibility - you'd have to take away SI:Div from Generalist.

 

For II - not really doable I think, you'd have to use kit targeting effs on Divinations. Even then, it won't work vs Invis via script detection. Moreover, SCS would still cast anti-magic at you. I don't like it, but that's the score.

 

 

With SR:

 

1) Invisibility: same behavior. Would an opponent with True Seeing active be able to target the illusionist? I hope not.

 

2) Improved Invisibility: same behavior except that, while 'partially' visible, an opponent with True Seeing active WILL be able to target the illusionist with spells. The benefits of ND would be (should be, anyway) a) the initial invisibility is not broken until he breaks cover, allowing him to maneuver as needed and 'shoot first (a limited benefit, but could be very useful), and b) improved invisibility is not broken so he still gets the AC & save bonuses.

1) He would. You can't change that other than tweaking TS again.

2) Invis Detect via script bypasses *everything*. And it is used by SR's TS. Even if you could get somehow around it (I'm 99% sure you can't), it could be gamebreaking (ie. a scripted dialogue needs to trigger, and you're invisible+immune to script detection. Alt+F4 time...)

 

 

I think the vanilla version would act that way if I used full-on SI:Div, so maybe that's what I need to do.

 

I think the SR version should be working as intended, based on what I've read about SR ND, since I'm using Demi's ND in that case.

 

I don't care about creatures scripted to see invisible...

Again, SI:Div is useless vs SR's True Seeing. Techically, AI doesn't really "see" your PC's animation, regardless of your invisible or visible state. If it's scripting state is set to hardcoded "see invisible" which this opcode does, it's done, cooked and baked - he can see you and attack/cast at you, regardless of what you toss onto yourself - ND, vanilla SI:Div, Pro Spell TS, or anything else. The main change is that SR's TS affects the caster, not the target, which is why vanilla's TS was thwarted by SI:Div or stealth+Non-Detection.

Not anymore - you can observe this by using KR's Inquistor for example.

If you set his AI script to standard attack; use his TS ability, he will attack thieves even if they won't appear on your screen as visible.

[subtledoctor]

Interesting. I didn't realize SR's TS works that way.

 

So what good is ND in SR? "Immune to divinations" is all well and good but what divinations are there, aside from TS/Detect Invisible? You're immune to Farsight?

 

Poop. Back to the drawing board. Maybe an innate ability that forces nearby enemies *out* of the 'see invisible' script state? A hostile reverse version of SR TS?

 

As for vanilla, it seems like SI:Div would get it done, not sure why not from your post. It doesn't matter if generalists can cast SI:Div, SCS will dispel that; the version for illusionists would be permanent and undispellable.

 

SCS targets invisible PCs with anti-magic? (You mean like Secret Word etc.?) I didn't realize that. I need to mod less and play more! But that's not even so bad, as long as they can't follow up with an Acid Arrow...

[kreso]

As for vanilla, it seems like SI:Div would get it done, not sure why not from your post. It doesn't matter if generalists can cast SI:Div, SCS will dispel that; the version for illusionists would be permanent and undispellable.

 

SCS targets invisible PCs with anti-magic? (You mean like Secret Word etc.?) I didn't realize that. I need to mod less and play more! But that's not even so bad, as long as they can't follow up with an Acid Arrow...

I'm not sure about what you want to do with "vanilla". Using old SI:Div will erect an ugly permanent globe around your illusionist. Use pro opcode I wrote above - looks nicer (no animation is better than permanent blob) and will keep your vanilla illusionist safe from 95% creatures in the game with a single invisibility potion.

Yes, SCS uses Anti-Magic (but only that) vs imp.invis.

 

 

So what good is ND in SR?

 

Poop. Back to the drawing board. Maybe an innate ability that forces nearby enemies *out* of the 'see invisible' script state? A hostile reverse version of SR TS?

It can make one unaffected by secodary effects of TS or Oracle, if they so desire by not breaking invisibility.

Look at it this way:

 

a)You buff with Imp.Invis. alone

Enemy casts TS.

You're partially revealed. All enemies can attack you, TS caster (but only him) can use spells against you.

 

b)You buff with Imp.invis + ND.

Enemy casts TS.

You're NOT partially revealed.

No enemy can attack you (they cannot "see" you), apart TS caster, who can also cast spells at you.

 

I hope this makes sense....

[Demivrgvs]

Non-detection vs divinations

SCS targets invisible PCs with anti-magic? (You mean like Secret Word etc.?) I didn't realize that. I need to mod less and play more! But that's not even so bad, as long as they can't follow up with an Acid Arrow...

Yes, SCS targets invisible PCs with anti-magic, I simply found a "better looking" solution for it. SCS only uses spell removals against II targets without SR, but with SR I think it automatically takes advantage of the new TS mechanic (as it should make the mage script detect II targets normally).

So what good is ND in SR? "Immune to divinations" is all well and good but what divinations are there, aside from TS/Detect Invisible? You're immune to Farsight?

Kreso gave you a good example, I can give you a big one imo: ND grants full immunity to Invisibility Purge, Detect Illusion (the spell, not sure thief ability right now - I need to rename this spell Dispel Illusion, I'm sick of being unable to differentiate the two abilities) and Oracle, because those spell do not give the caster the ability to "see invisibility", they try to dispel illusions.

Illusionist
On a side note, you seem so interested into giving Illusionists a super powerful ability, I could suggest you one, albeit it's borderline OP unless you keep the duration really short: a combo of II and ProCreature (opcode 100) to make such creature "truly undetectable".