Opposite schools and specialist mages

[kreso]

 

Illusionist

On a side note, you seem so interested into giving Illusionists a super powerful ability, I could suggest you one, albeit it's borderline OP unless you keep the duration really short: a combo of II and ProCreature (opcode 100) to make such creature "truly undetectable".

I tought about it as well, but illusionst already has one extreme benefit over any other mage kit - he's multiclass potential.

I don't know what duration could be "not gamebreaking" for this. Or maybe balance it with other stuff (no spellcasting, apr set to 0 or similar).

[subtledoctor]

b)You buff with Imp.invis + ND.

Enemy casts TS.

You're NOT partially revealed.

No enemy can attack you (they cannot "see" you), apart TS caster, who can also cast spells at you.

Non-detection vs divinations ND grants full immunity to Invisibility Purge, Detect Illusion (the spell, not sure thief ability right now - I need to rename this spell Dispel Illusion, I'm sick of being unable to differentiate the two abilities) and Oracle, because those spell do not give the caster the ability to "see invisibility", they try to dispel illusions.

Ah. So, TS = caster scripted to see invisible, + an illusion-busting Oracle effect? If ND works as kreso describes, then I come back to the opinion that the ability as I have it coded right now is fine - on a permanent basis, it can be perfectly a cool, useful, but not OP, school-based perk. It doesn't give the 'shoot first' ability but I guess that's not the end of the world. Maybe I could add something like the Shadowdancer's Shadowstep for that tactical aspect.

 

The only question is, immunity to Dispel Illusions/Invisibility Purge/Oracle really that handy? I don't know if I've ever seen the AI ever use those spells. Seems like SCS uses TS, and only TS (as of v21, the last version I played).

 

2nd question is, what about the 2nd level spell Detect Invisible? Does that use the script state as well? If so, I might have to switch it out for a clone of Invisibility Purge. But that's okay.

 

Illusionist

On a side note, you seem so interested into giving Illusionists a super powerful ability, I could suggest you one, albeit it's borderline OP unless you keep the duration really short: a combo of II and ProCreature (opcode 100) to make such creature "truly undetectable".

I don't want an über ability. I just want something that is a) school-related; b) useful in the context of this game engine; c) interesting and nudges the player toward a particular play style suited for this specialist; and d) not overpowered.

 

I think permanent ND within SR fits the bill. Likewise, I think extra damage for Invokers fots the bill. And better summons for Conjurers - either from an automatic buff, or by making the SR summoning spells one level lower. And automatic Spell Shield for Abjurers. And Contingency for Diviners. (When everyone else gets access to regular Contingency, maybe I'll let Diviners load if with 2 spells instead of just 1.)

 

I still don't know what to do about Enchanters though...

[subtledoctor]

@kreso just looking at your stuff now... the vanilla nondetection will be useful, thanks.

 

Incidentally I'm also looking at your Enchanter's Aura of Despair - an aura that just causes all nearby enemies a penalty to saves might be an easier way than patching the Enchanter's spells to have a save penalty (because Charm and other Enchantment spells are all vastly different depending on which variant of the game you're using (TOB, TOB/TobEx, TOB/FixPack, BGEE, IWDEE, SR). I might be able to tackle them with Camdawg's ALTER_EFFECT macro... but a permanent aura would definitely be simpler.

 

So, getting to the point, when you guys talk about auras in KR, is this how it's implemented? EFF on condition, and just cast a spell once every three seconds, permanently? That doesn't cause slowdowns or anything?

[kreso]

So, getting to the point, when you guys talk about auras in KR, is this how it's implemented? EFF on condition, and just cast a spell once every three seconds, permanently? That doesn't cause slowdowns or anything?

It doesn't cause slowdown, no (if it did, KR fighters would slow down the game much more since they use 3 different effs, but I think Demi will change this.). I did try some alternatives for auras since they aren't really flawless, you can read the discussion here. It works better now when Haste is out of the game however.

Current KR auras have a 6 seconds timer, I've set my own to 3 since I find 6 to be too long.

Coincidentaly, I found out why SCS would bug out on Enchanter - he has a *AP_KI....* instead of *AP_K1....* at his level 1 bonus, SCS can't find the .SPL reference and quits.

[subtledoctor]

Coincidentaly, I found out why SCS would bug out on Enchanter - he has a *AP_KI....* instead of *AP_K1....* at his level 1 bonus, SCS can't find the .SPL reference and quits.

 

Way off-topic in this forum, but yeah I've been having lots of problems with SCS as well. I sloppily add some CLAB effect without a corresponding COPY command, or just have a typo like yours... when installed, it doesn't work, but it doesn't stop anyone from playing the game either. It's just one missing CLAB effect, often unnoticeable.

 

But, when a player tries to install SCS after my mod it goes from a minor bug to a literally show-stopping bug, because now that player can't get his mods installed and start playing. On the bright side, it has helped me identify those typos, which might have gone unnoticed otherwise...

 

Also off-topic, I'm just about done with the first version of my revamped wizard kits. Here are the descriptions:

 

ABJURER:

 

A Mage who specializes in protective magic and metamagic disciplines. These mages can erect powerful wards and barriers, and are also trained to break those wards and effects that are created by other spellcasters.

 

Advantages:

- Abjurers automatically learn spells from the school of Abjuration.

- Abjurers may use the "Protective Shell" cantrip, which lasts for 30 seconds and harmlessly absorbs the first physical strike that hits the caster.

- Abjurers gain the Parry Magic and Spell Thrust abilities earlier than other mages.

- When Abjurers cast spell protections, such as a Globe of Invulnerability or Spell Deflection, a Spell Shield is automatically created at the same time, giving the Abjurer an extra layer of protection.

 

 

CONJURER (non-SR):

 

A Mage who specializes in creating or summoning creatures and objects, moving them through space. These wizards ultimately master teleportation magic, able to banish enemies and summon aid from different planes altogether.

 

Advantages:

- Conjurers automatically learn spells from the school of Conjuration.

- Conjurers may use the "Conjure Rabbit" cantrip, which conjures a rabbit out of thin air!

- Conjurers may cast Monster Summoning I innately at 2rd and 4th levels; Monster Summoning II at 6th and 8th levels; and Monster Summoning III at 10th level.

 

 

CONJURER (SR):

 

A Mage who specializes in creating or summoning creatures and objects, moving them through space. These wizards ultimately master teleportation magic, able to banish enemies and summon aid from different planes altogether.

 

Advantages:

- Conjurers automatically learn spells from the school of Conjuration.

- Conjurers may use the "Conjure Rabbit" cantrip, which conjures a rabbit out of thin air!

- Conjurers may cast the various Monster Summoning spells as if they were one level lower.

 

 

DIVINER:

 

A Mage who specializes in detection and divining magics. These wizards developer an instinctive ability to glimpse the future; while such visions are rarely clear, they give enough information to provide Seers with slightly improved reflexes and the ability to use magic to subtly alter the outcome of probabilistic events.

 

Advantages:

- Diviners automatically learn spells from the school of Divination.

- Diviners may use the "Anticipation" cantrip, which provides the caster with a +3 AC bonus for 18 seconds.

- Diviners do not take extra from thieves' backstabs.

- Diviners can use the Contingency ability at level 1, and can load it with two spells from level 10.

 

 

ENCHANTER:

 

A Mage who specializes in Charm and Enchantment magic. These wizards are adept both at using magic to influence the minds of others, inducing sleep, friendliness, despair, or dementia. They are also expert at instilling items with magical energy - stable artifacts take very long to enchant but some limited-use wands may be created fairly easily (at some expense).

 

Advantages:

- Enchanters automatically learn spells from the school of Enchantment.

- Enchanters may use the "Drowse" cantrip, which causes a target to briefly fall asleep if the target fails a saving throw.

- Enchanters are resistant to magic within their specialty, becoming immune to Charm and Sleep spells.

- Magical effects are harder to resist near an Enchanter: nearby enemies automatically suffer a -2 penalty to saves vs. spells.

- Enchanters may craft powerful but limited-charge wands from certain known spells.

 

 

ILLUSIONIST:

 

A Mage who specializes in creating illusions to confuse and mislead. These canny wizards can bend light and manipulate perceptions in various ways. They can duck out of sight when in danger, and eventually gain the power to create illusions of startling substance and realism.

 

Advantages:

- Illusionists automatically learn spells from the school of Illusion.

- Illusionists may use the "Bedazzle" cantrip, which dazzles the target's eyes and causes -3 penalties to thac0, damage, and AC for 12 seconds if the target fails a saving throw.

- Illusionists are permanently under the effect of Nondetection, able to remain invisible even when targeted by scrying magic.

 

 

INVOKER:

 

A Mage who specializes in the manipulation of raw and elemental energies. These wizards use magical spells to manipulate the basic energies of the multiverse. They excel at releasing this energy in explosive flashes of fire or lightning, or shunting it away to project an icy freeze.

 

Advantages:

- Invokers automatically learn spells from the school of Invocation.

- Invokers may use the "Magic Bolt" cantrip, which does 1d4+1 hit points of magic damage to the target.

- Invokers do 20% more damage with spells that involve fire, lightning, cold, or magic damage.

 

 

TRANSMUTER:

 

A Mage who specializes in magic that alters physical reality. These wizards control and transform matter in all the ways their magical learning affords them. They can cause the air to turn to a toxic mist, change their own shape into that of a powerful monster, and even stop time itself. Transmuters are also alchemists, creating the various magical potions on which so many adventurers rely.

 

Advantages:

- Transmuters automatically learn spells from the school of Alteration.

- Transmuters may use the "Earthen Grasp" cantrip, which causes tendrils from the ground to reach out and Entangle the target for 12 seconds if the target fails a saving throw.

- Transmuters can maintain the stability of their personal form, resisting hostile polymorph, petrification, and disintegration effects.

- Transmuters excel at alchemy, able to brew certain potions with effects of spells which which they are familiar.

 

(oh yeah, I forgot to include it in the description but if SR is installed, Transmuters get the druid 'Regenerate Wounds' spells... but 2 levels higher than usual (so Reg. Wounds I is 3rd-level, Reg. Wounds II is 4th level, etc.)

 

NECROMANCER:

 

A Mage who specializes in magic dealing with death, undeath, and energy from the Negative Material Plane. Necromancy is a disturbing art, reviled by most civilized practitioners and academies of magic. They experiment with the living and the dead, and create undead abominations that straddle the gap in between. With practice, some Necromancers eventually learn techniques to achieve immortality by changing their own bodies into the form of a lich.

 

Advantages:

- Necromancers are the only wizards able to cast spells from the school of Necromancy.

- Necromancers automatically learn spells from the school of Necromancy.

- Necromancers may use the "Stiffen Bones" cantrip, which Slows a target and causes -2 penalties to thac0 and AC for 12 seconds if the target fails a saving throw.

- Necromancers may transform parts of their bodies with the power of energy from the Negative Material Plane. Once they learn the technique from a scroll, they may innately use the power of a Chilling Touch, Ghoul Touch, or Vampiric Touch.

 

[kreso]

 

- Abjurers may use the "Protective Shell" cantrip, which lasts for 30 seconds and harmlessly absorbs the first physical strike that hits the caster.

Is this Stoneskin effect, 1 skin, 30 seconds?

[subtledoctor]

- Abjurers may use the "Protective Shell" cantrip, which lasts for 30 seconds and harmlessly absorbs the first physical strike that hits the caster.

Is this Stoneskin effect, 1 skin, 30 seconds?

 

 

Yes. I'll probably extend it to ~60 or 120 seconds, it's kind of annoying the way it currently plays. And spamming it won't matter since the SS effect will just replace itself.

[kreso]

Yeah, low-duration stuff gets annoying soon (I rework KR berserker so he's in a permanent Offensive Stance so I don't have to toggle it over and over). I'm thinking about what I should do with Transmuters. I have never played one (I haven't even played a kitted mage in decades ).

Is some kind of "permanent" stoneskin idea (level 17-19) too crazy? Enough to make Abjuration/Evocation ban not overly drastic, or just bollocks?

[subtledoctor]

I'm not sure how that would work. I guess you could have a .spl that continuously recasts every 6 seconds, with one skin, so you always absorb one hit per round. That would be interesting. (It would actually make a cool "parry" ability, maybe for swashbucklers, or as an equipped effect of shields instead of IR's current heavy AC bonuses. Only issue would be the hard-coded gray SS appearance, in the absence of TobEx.)

[kreso]

I'm not sure how that would work. I guess you could have a .spl that continuously recasts every 6 seconds, with one skin, so you always absorb one hit per round. That would be interesting. (It would actually make a cool "parry" ability, maybe for swashbucklers, or as an equipped effect of shields instead of IR's current heavy AC bonuses. Only issue would be the hard-coded gray SS appearance, in the absence of TobEx.)

I was thinking using 232, each time he's attacked he'd skin himself.

[n-ghost]

Overall those kits look very cool, but I have some doubts about certain things.

 

For example:

 

Conjurers may cast Monster Summoning I innately at 2rd and 4th levels; Monster Summoning II at 6th and 8th levels; and Monster Summoning III at 10th level.

 

Conjurers may cast the various Monster Summoning spells as if they were one level lower.

 

If I'm reading this correctly, it is most certainly OP. In vanilla game a number of summons one can conjure is limited by the number of spell slots available (and somehow balanced vs enemy spell slots as well). Barring the broken Wands of Summoning, the idea of the system (in the BG part of the game, anyway) is to have just enough spell slots to deal with all the summons and maybe throw a last fireball at the enemy party.

 

But if the summons are limitless, they'll eventually exhaust a spell list of any caster, even if said summons are just (mostly) harmless kobolds.

 

The solution as far as I can see it is to move this ability somewhere to levels 7-9 (11, 13 and so on for better summons) and nerf the duration compared to "real" summoning spells. Also, they must be vulnerable to Banish.

 

Actually, I suggest adding single-target Banish as an innate to every kit out there, starting with level 10 (some kit probably should get it earlier) or so.

 

Diviners do not take extra from thieves' backstabs.

 

Probably a typo in the "extra damage" part. Also, this perk renders all the thief classes useless against the diviners (as if they could do anything vs mages in the first place!), so I suggest moving it at least to level 9. Or, better yet, 12.

 

Enchanters are resistant to magic within their specialty, becoming immune to Charm and Sleep spells.

 

This duplicates the elven innate, thus making elven enchanters redundant.

 

I suggest making them immune to 'hold' and 'stun' instead. Those thick-headed enchanters.

 

Illusionists are permanently under the effect of Nondetection, able to remain invisible even when targeted by scrying magic.

 

It should probably be moved either to the end of BG1 (levels 7-8) or to the middle of BG2 (13-14, respectively). I'm not sure that vanilla BG casters can handle such an ability.

 

(and probably neither the PC party can, unless specifically and expensively prepared)

 

Necromancers are the only wizards able to cast spells from the school of Necromancy.

 

Huh, so no Horrid Wilting for everybody?

Well it's interesting, though I hope it won't mess the enemy casters too much (ADHW is the main damage spell at the higher levels, after all. Irenicus likes it too).

 

By the way, I think it was mentioned here before, but, are the generalists restricted in any way?

[kreso]

No AI mod (bar SCS) uses kitted mages. Also, SCS doesn't "kit" them as it does fighters/thieves. Whatever is done to them SCS won't really take into account (SCS Enchanter will cast ADHW, even if your own won't be able to).

It also uses only Conjurers, Necromancers, Invokers and Enchanters - so you won't be seeing a Diviner or an Illusionist.

[subtledoctor]

Conjurers:

Not sure what you're saying about the summons. In a non-SR environment, Conjurers just get an extra innate ability with a low-level summons, just like any other kit might get a special innate ability (Inquisitors DM & TS, Archers Called Shot, etc.) It won't give you unlimited summons, it's just a once-per-day ability. Admittedly this is not what I hoped to code for these guys, but it's better with SR.

 

With SR installed, Conjurers get better summoning spells, but they take up the same memorization slots. So where most mages get Demi's MS1 as a 1st level spell and MS6 as a 6th level spell, Conjurers get MS2 as a 1st level spell and MS7 as a 6th level spell.

 

Diviners:

Yes Diviners have backstab immunity. Know why it doesn't matter? Because no one plays Diviners. Certainly not the AI, if that's what you're worried about. And for players... well, I don't think I've ever had a mage back stabbed so it's not a huge difference. And to get this benefit you give up other benefits like extra elemental damage or Charm Immunity, etc.

 

Enchanters:

I didn't think about elves... but it's okay, elves are masters of Enchantment magic, maybe they invented this specialization! Anyway the save penalty aura is a more important benefit, I think. Hold/stun immunity would be too OP. But,maybe not. I'll think about it.

 

Illusionists:

I think you have it exactly wrong about illusionists: perm NonDetection is *not* very powerful at low levels, because you break your own invisibility as soon as you cast another spell. At 7th level you get Improved Invis. and that's when this ability becomes super-crazy-OP because you can never be targeted by spells. Again, this is much better with SR installed because TS will work against it.

 

Maybe I should allow TS to work against it in non-SR games (have to mess with the opcodes I used), or maybe I should only make this work with the 2nd level spell. Then give them Shadowstep, or a small-range Dimension Door to simulate it, as well.

 

Necromancers:

ADHW is moved from Necromancy to Invocation (and yes, Invokers do +20% damage with it), and since everyone can cast all Invocation spells, everyone can cast ADHW. (I think I dropped Level Drain to 8th level (and buffed it with with a save-vs.-instadeath effect) to give Necromancers a spell at that level in place of ADHW.)

 

The list of Necromancy spells that other wizards cannot cast is actually pretty small, only 1-2 per level:

 

- Larloch's Minor Drain (buffed at high levels)

- Chill Touch (now an innate)

- Ray of Enfeeblement (buffed)

- Ghoul Touch (now an innate)

- Skull Trap

- Hold Undead

- Vampiric Touch (now an innate)

- Contagion

- Spirit Armor

- Animate Dead

- Disintegrate (now called "Discorporate")

- Control Undead

- Finger of Death

- Level Drain

- Wail of the Banshee

And, with SR installed:

- Summon Skeleton

- Summon Shadow

- Summon Death Knight

 

Some nice ones, but nothing that can't be approximated by other casters (Fireball instead of Skull Trap, other summons instead of Skeletons, Flesh to Stone instead of Disintegrate, etc.)

[subtledoctor]

Incudentally Demi as I was thinking about my Enchanters' aura causing enemies to take a penalty to saves vs. spells, it got me thinking about which spells that would affect.

 

I think the game is due for a bit of an overhaul of the way saving throws work. For instance, it's clear why a save vs. spells would let you resist a Charm or a Horror or a Hold... but a Fireball? Seems to me resisting that is different by nature, it's dodging the effect vs. mentally resisting the effect. The vanilla game seems to use a save vs. spells there only because it's *from a spell* but I think that's poor logic.

 

I think that:

- most spells that cause direct/elemental damage should give a save vs. Breath

- most spells that are necromantic, attacking your life force, should give a save vs. Death

- most spells that are transformative in nature, like polymorph or petrification, should give a save vs. Polymorph/Petrification (duh!)... maybe Slow should be included here?

- most spells that apply a magical effect directly to the person/mind of the target should give a save vs. Spells (Charms, Holds, illusions, etc.)

 

(... I don't know what saves vs Wands are meant to represent...??)

 

This would make it very predictable and useful in knowing that certain save bonuses will protect you against certain kinds of magic, instead of now where saves vs Spells affect nearly everything.

 

Yes I know we're in the KR boards and this is a suggestion for SR, but you can file it away with the many many other ideas people shout at you.

 

(It might be pretty easy to code up as an optional component, with a variant of the template I posted earlier in this thread and Camdawg's ALTER_EFFECT macro that's included in Weidu as of v237... if I can ever find some free time maybe I'll try to get a draft done, I could put it in my mod and/or donate it to SR. Or, if SR already does something like this let me know, I haven't looked closely.)

[kreso]

Incudentally Demi as I was thinking about my Enchanters' aura causing enemies to take a penalty to saves vs. spells, it got me thinking about which spells that would affect.

SR already does something like this let me know, I haven't looked closely.)

Already done, many years ago. Why do you think I gave this aura to Enchanter, so he could Disintegrate better?