Inquisitor True sight completely removes Improved Invisibility, Spell/Item True Sight doesn't

[subtledoctor]

 

So as long as spells set the proficiency between 2 and 5 stars

Only 5 would be safe, but that means Grand Mastery! Could be ok for some mid-high spells, but not most.

I think the best answer is to have all spell-derived weapons use their own proficiency - they are different from normal weapons after all, with different materials (pure light, pure magic force, etc.) and different weight characteristics.

 

But yeah I get hiw the changes cause problems, and were a half-assed 'fix' - they should have gone all the way to letting you a) set the number, b) set with a floor (old functionality), c) increment, or d) decrement. Instead of going from b) to a), they should have gone from b) to all of them.

 

I don't understand, why do you guys want to nerf ND?

That's just a side-effect. I was just addressing the concern that switching Oracle & True Sight would make ND effective against a 6th-level spell but ineffective against a 5th level spell. By making the TS effect part of a the new, more powerful, 6th-level Oracle, this becomes more consistent.

 

And, I don't think it would be much of a nerf for ND. It's still very effective against these spells, since it still gives all the benefits of invisibility (including save bonuses - and I have no defense of Beamdog here) against anyone except the one guy who cast TS/Oracle. For its spell level, ND is still very valuable.

[kreso]

 

I don't understand, why do you guys want to nerf ND?

That's just a side-effect. I was just addressing the concern that switching Oracle & True Sight would make ND effective against a 6th-level spell but ineffective against a 5th level spell. By making the TS effect part of a the new, more powerful, 6th-level Oracle, this becomes more consistent.

 

And, I don't think it would be much of a nerf for ND. It's still very effective against these spells, since it still gives all the benefits of invisibility (including save bonuses - and I have no defense of Beamdog here) against anyone except the one guy who cast TS/Oracle. For its spell level, ND is still very valuable.

 

If you change what Oracle actually *does* ND wouldn't be much nerfed. You can add 206 to ND against Oracle's "Know oponnent" effect or whatever.

Anyhow, I wouldn't be worried about nerfs & buffs to the spells, SR is already way ahead of vanilla game where a 5th level spell (SI) would make you immune to an entire spell school, up to 9th level.

[toxin]

SR's description: "allow the caster to see and target invisible creatures normally". If it's not clear enough I'll let native english speakers handle it because that's the best I can do.

 

The confusing bit is that TS actually does two separate things:

1. Dispels illusions (e.g. mirror image) for the entire party
2. Allows only the caster to target semi-invisible creatures.

IMHO it's not currently clear from the description. A simple clarification about the semi-invisible state would go a long way I think. Even better, explain how TS interacts with II in the latter's description too.

 

No offense man but it seems like everything is OP for you. Anyway, ND "replaces" SI:Div within SR, and if giving protection from mid-low lvl divination spells is the least it could do imo. If Oracle can breach ND than why would you ever use ND in the first place?

 

I guess Detect invisibility, Glitterdust, Detect Illusion, and maybe even Oracle (or whatever gets kept in lvl 5)... but withstanding a 6th lvl spell is just absurd IMO. I thought the "counter spell math" argument I gave presented a good case, but in general I don't like spells you just can't counter. And that's not even mentioning spells that compound on II like Mislead and PI that add yet another layer you need to counter before you can even target the dude to start peeling his actual defenses!

 

I know I'm a bit on the nerfing side, but in my defense I'm not the first to say mages are way too powerful compared to the other classes

 

Btw, once again you just need to cast True Seeing. It will not dispel the illusionary protections, but the caster of TS can ignore most of them (I couldn't code to ignore Blur's AC penalty though).

 

 

I feel like I'm missing something here. What exactly happens when you cast TS and your opponent is protected with ND? My experience against the lich was that he remained completely invisible (II wasn't reduced to the semi-invisibility state) and I got "spell ineffective".

 

Which build are you using? KWW, RRoR, Pierce Shield and Spellstrike were not working as they should against Spell Shield until 1-2 builds ago, but now they should.

 

I'm using the latest, you can find my wiedu log here: http://pastebin.com/fBrmmCHg

 

ST still has a small AoE, thus you don't need True Seeing to target an II creature with it.

 

How about just granting such small AoE to the other spell/combat counter spells? That way the caster remains un-targetable but you can still peel off his protections legitimately... everybody wins?

[Demivrgvs]

Oracle

If you change what Oracle actually *does* ND wouldn't be much nerfed. You can add 206 to ND against Oracle's "Know oponnent" effect or whatever.

I know, but it would overcomplicate the required description whereas now I can simply say ND makes you immune to Oracle (*). As you can see, there are players who find it kinda hard to understand.

 

(*) I think we have to improve ND's description. For example right now it isn't clear how it works against TS imo.

 

Non-detection

withstanding a 6th lvl spell is just absurd IMO

Tell that to Death Ward and Chaotic Commands. Anyway, ND doesn't make you immune to TS. See below.

 

I feel like I'm missing something here. What exactly happens when you cast TS and your opponent is protected with ND? My experience against the lich was that he remained completely invisible (II wasn't reduced to the semi-invisibility state) and I got "spell ineffective".

ND will protect the II status yes, but unless the lich does absolutley nothing he will soon be forced to partially reveal his position (aka becoming semi-invisible). Once he does, TS will allow you to target the lich.

 

ND protects the recipient's illusionary buffs (or hidden position if he used hide in shadows), divination spells simply cannot touch the protected creature. Not even TS can work for that, but when TS allows you to target the semi-invisible creature you are not dealing with ND because you are not actively trying to remove any illusionary buff, you simply "see the target and cast at it". TS isn't affecting the target, but you.

 

Spell Removals

How about just granting such small AoE to the other spell/combat counter spells? That way the caster remains un-targetable but you can still peel off his protections legitimately... everybody wins?

That how they worked within SR V3, but the small AoE were kinda buggy/unreliable.

[toxin]

That how they worked within SR V3, but the small AoE were kinda buggy/unreliable.

 

Could you explain why? Is it because AoE spells are fired to the location you initially pointed at, regardless of the position of the target at the time of firing meaning you can simply miss and lose something as valuable as Spell Strike?

 

ND protects the recipient's illusionary buffs (or hidden position if he used hide in shadows), divination spells simply cannot touch the protected creature.

 

If you don't want high level divination spells to dispel ND protected illusions, how about just dispelling ND itself? Kind of like kreso's Dispelling Screen. If memory serves there were talks about making CC and DW the same (even though I don't think the situation is the same - they both protect against battle ending spells, whereas ND is more of a luxury, protecting a single layer that's very powerful on its own, let alone combined with the ones below it).

[subtledoctor]

If you don't want high level divination spells to dispel ND protected illusions, how about just dispelling ND itself? Kind of like kreso's Dispelling Screen.

1) That would be quite difficult to code.

 

2) The concept is kind of weird - ND protects you from scrying magic, until someone uses scrying magic on you, in which case the scrying doesn't work but you're no longer protected from scrying...?

 

Realistically this just means everyone must memorize & cast double the number of Dispel Illusion spells, and ND just buys you a single round (if that) in which to remain invisible.

 

I think current SR is fine: scrying discloses invisible people, unless they are protected by ND, in which case they aren't disclosed, but they can still be seen and targeted by people casting True Sight (or using Potions of Sight - why aren't you using IR???)

 

For me, I just think there should be a scrying spell more powerful than the caster-only True Sight effect. Some that grants the caster True Sight, and also lets his allies share the benefit, seeing the world as the caster does, and even maybe even outline hostile enemies in a Faerie Fire-style effect. (I guess that's like the "Mass Know Opponent" effect Demi talked about.) That would be appropriate for a 6th/7th/8th-level Divination spell. Heck, pile on enough effects, and it could be 9th level.

[toxin]

Some that grants the caster True Sight, and also lets his allies share the benefit

 

I would totally go for that.

 

Realistically this just means everyone must memorize & cast double the number of Dispel Illusion spells, and ND just buys you a single round (if that) in which to remain invisible.

 

Couldn't the same be said of Dispelling Screen? Anyway if it's difficult to code that's a good reason too, of course.

[Demivrgvs]

For me, I just think there should be a scrying spell more powerful than the caster-only True Sight effect. ...

I don't know if I'm revealing a secret because it's listed on my to-do list (main folder of SR's beta) but "Wizard Eye moved to 7th lvl as Watchful Eye" sounds like something you may like.

[subtledoctor]

I don't know if I'm revealing a secret because it's listed on my to-do list (main folder of SR's beta) but "Wizard Eye moved to 7th lvl as Watchful Eye" sounds like something you may like.

Nice!

 

But wait, what's happening to vanilla Wizard Eye? One of my kits uses that spell as an innate ability...

[kreso]

 

Realistically this just means everyone must memorize & cast double the number of Dispel Illusion spells, and ND just buys you a single round (if that) in which to remain invisible.

 

Couldn't the same be said of Dispelling Screen? Anyway if it's difficult to code that's a good reason too, of course.

 

It can. But the relative power of DI is far smaller than Dispel Magic. If Remove check is succesfull, you'll remove invisibility, stoneskins and whatever else you got on yourself.

But yes, Dispelling Screen (in this "incarnation") is but a mere shadow of original "Spell Immunity - Abjuration". In PnP, Spell Immunity works so that is protects against a single spell (you get to choose which) and then it's gone. It's vastly OP in vanilla; and furthermore it "stacks" with other SI spells - basically making this a spell a Pro Magic scroll with an added benifit - you can cast through it.

AoE Dispelling Screen is built around the idea of keeping your party members; at least partially; able to keep their buffs intact; even against Dispel Magic. Mages can use self-only buffs for protection like Globe & Deflection.

It's not too difficult to code, but I fail to see the reason - True Seeing "ticks" every few seconds. And given how it works, there's no way that invisibility keeps one safe from it - caster will always be able to see and cast against an imp.invis. enemy.

[toxin]

It's not too difficult to code, but I fail to see the reason - True Seeing "ticks" every few seconds. And given how it works, there's no way that invisibility keeps one safe from it - caster will always be able to see and cast against an imp.invis. enemy.

Fair enough. So how about lvl5 = TS, lvl6 = Mass TS (for the entire party, or at least friendly AoE)?

[kreso]

Possible, but allowing all party members & summons to suffer no penalties against Imp.invis. isn't something I'd endorse.

[toxin]

Keep the penalties, just make them targetable

[kreso]

Keep the penalties, just make them targetable

Can't

[toxin]

Well, it was worth a shot

 

I'm all for some spell to counter ND+II, either by dispelling or granting TS to the entire party - make it 7th lvl for all I care (kind of like the SpellStrike of illusions)... Just something to consider