What exactly are the SR + SCS rules for mage chess..?

[Guest Nightfall]

I have a latest SR -> SCS installation (4.19rc4, 35.9), I'm quite experienced with SCS spellcasting rules, but SR is leaving me incredibly confused.

 

1. Breaking invisibility - from the description of the spells, it sounds like Oracle should *dispel* illusions and invisiblity - as in, remove them from the enemy casting them.

I go off to fight a lich. He casts Shadow Door. Nalia casts Oracle. Edwin can't cast any directed spells at him.

Is this intended? How are conjurers supposed to deal with mages? Is there no way to actually remove illusions/saving throw bonuses/ac bonuses from someone who cast Shadow Door/II?

I've also had issues (but can't consistently observe it), where casting Oracle or True Sight did not let the caster target the lich with directed spells (But it's possible that I've missed something in the combat log. It's very difficult to tell if divination spells are having any effect, because they aren't removing any of the buffs off their targets.)

2. Protection from Magical Weapons. Is it supposed to protect from normal weapons? I run into a mage or a yan-ti casting it, I switch my fighters to normal weapons, and my attacks keep failing with 'weapon ineffective'.

3. What does prismatic mantle do? The description says 'prismatic effect', but no indication of which level of weapons it protects against, or what those effects are.

4. Given #2, is it an indication that something about my installation is broken?

[subtledoctor]

1) Oracle is a 5th-level spell and liches are immune to 5th-level spells. I assume that immunity is defeating Oracle in this instance.

More generally, with SR you want each spellcaster to have their own way to see invisible creatures. Oracle in particular allows one caster to reveal targets to other casters, but you have the problem of Oracle being 5th level. There have been talks about how this system disadvantages Edwin and what to do about it. The short version is, for now, have Edwin do things like chuck summons at the lich (he is a Conjurer after all) and have Nalia be the one who directly targets the lich with spells.

2) I'm pretty sure PfMW has indeed been turned into protection from all weapons. Maybe? I know that's how it is in my game, and I like it better - bypassing an archmage's protections with a common chair leg is honestly a dumb workaround in the vanilla game.

3) Prismatic Mantle does not protect you, rather it kills enemies who attack you. I don't love this - my mod "SubtleD's Spell Tweaks" has a component that changes this into a souped-up version of Stoneskin.

4) No, I don't think it anything is broken, instead it is encouraging you to engage with the game's systems and Breach them. (Or, wait out the PfMW which only lasts 4 rounds.)

[Guest Nightfall]

> 1) Oracle is a 5th-level spell and liches are immune to 5th-level spells. I assume that immunity is defeating Oracle in this instance.

1. They aren't immune to Breach, or spells that attack magical defenses, or divination spells in SCS, regardless of spell level (Secret Word, Spell Thrust, Detect Invisibility, etc, cast at spell level 0 - which bypasses lich immunity). This is a core component of SCS mage chess.

2. I believe have the same problem against non-liches (But I haven't tested it as exhaustively). Edwin can't cast on a mage that has been revealed by Oracle, either.

3. Summons... Don't do much, for obvious reasons. The way to kill SCS liches, Summoner liches in particular (Which this one is, this prick gates in 2 Balors, a Glabrezu, elementals, *and then follows it up with a Wish to refresh his spells*) is getting the Breach off.

> 2) I'm pretty sure PfMW has indeed been turned into protection from all weapons. 

So, it's just misnamed/misdescribed? I see that the Mantles have been removed and Absolute Immunity now affects spell damage (Just magical damage..? Or elemental damage, too?)

[Guest Nightfall]

Thinking about it more, I'm not entirely convinced that  lich spell immunity ought to work the way you describe - because if it did, Raskshasa would be completely unassailable (As they are immune to spells level 7 and below, and there are no divination spells that are level 8 and above.)

SCS allows Divination, Spell removal, and Breach on them. (As all of those spells effects are cast at level 0.)

 

[DavidW]

SR’s detect invisible ought to work: it’s cast on the caster, not the rakshasa.

[Guest Nightfall]

Thank you, DavidW. (And thank you for all your work on improving the game!) That makes sense, and that explains why Edwin is up a creek with the lich situation.

 

I think I get it now. The SCS order of mage chess is:

Spell Thrust to drop Spell Shield. Ruby Ray to drop Spell Trap. Secret Word/Spell Thrust to drop other protections. Detect Invisibility/Dispel Illusions/True Sight at any point prior to this (if SI:Div is off) to make the mage targetable. Breach.

The SR + SCS order of mage chess is the same, except that Spell Shield has been reworked, and Detect Invisibility has to be cast by *each* mage who wants to Breach. (And Oracle works for non-Liches/Rakshasa.)

This does seem to be a significant Conjurer nerf, as a single conjurer in a party can't really cast spells at mages anymore. I can't even complain about it in the case of Edwin, though, due to his amulet, and I can't imagine a lot of people run PC conjurers... 

 

[DavidW]

My proposal from a while ago was to follow the PnP rule that only *greater* divination, I.e. divination above level 3, is barred to conjurers. But I don’t play with SR so it’s not a big deal to me.

[subtledoctor]

Yes Conjurers get screwed by this, a bit, and there is a thread about how to address that. There are still several options available to Conjurers: Oracle cast by someone else should make someone visible (but it’s possible Nondetection blocks that, in which case you need to bring down the Nondetection with Spell Thrust..?) Glitterdust can make someone visible and can be cast by Conjurers, and Faerie Fire can as well. My ‘SubtleD’s Spell Tweaks’ mod has components that beef up those two spells in this context. It also has an invisibility overhaul that generally improves this. It also has a component that lets specialists use low-level spells from opposition schools, which would allow Edwin to cast See Invisible (which is allowed per the actual AD&D rules).

Of course Glitterdust and Faerie Fire don’t work on liches, or someone with spell protections. I don’t think Oracle works on liches, notwithstanding your recollection. Liches are supposed to be very dangerous, even to high-level wizards like Edwin! Someone like Edwin challenging a lich should 1) be very high level, and 2) chuck pit fiends at the lich and drop Death Fogs and Acid Clouds and Firestorms and Meteor Swarms in the lich's general area.

If you install IR as well as SR (they are designed to complement each other) then Edwin can use Potions of Sight to very easily target invisible enemies. He can also use Wands of Spell Piercing since wands can target invisible enemies. 

And summons distract enemies, wasting enemy spells and attacks and gaining you a resource advantage. They are extraordinarily useful.

So while the situation is not perfect, there are still options here.

Edited February 13 by subtledoctor

[DrAzTiK]

Sometimes, another way to deal with a powerfull mage is to send only one tanky fighter with very good AC and wielding your best items as possible, meaning almost only damage spells could hurt him.

Not need to always fall into this no end run of dispelling magic protections witch cost a lot of spell slots.