Smarter Deamons, Dumber Mages

[Mahokenshi]

Hi there.

 

I just began a playthrough or two of the BG series, and I'm using, among other mods, SCS for both BG and BG2.

 

One of my games is with a Chavalier PC. Now it would go to follow that I would be using the improved daemons component.

 

I would like to, but I was wondering if in future versions it would be possible to give the daeomons all the cool new powers, but make the "see through protection from evil" component optional.

 

Yes, I know that it would make them far easier. But the idea of the divine power of a good deity protecting a mortal from supernatural evil is pretty rooted in tradtion (and 2nd ed game mechanics.)

 

Besides, if all these mages make pacts with deamons, well, that's a lot of new cannon fodder for the blood war. Didn't any of these mages play through Planescape: Torment? Surely an epic level mage would know the risk. And for every Dr. Faustus wannabe, there must be a dozen far more sensible mages out there. I could see most liches striking a pact, as their immortal soul is rather hard to steal (and would be a real prize if a deamon could get it.) But a ton of NPC mages making this deal?

 

And none of the joinable NPC mages. Lawful Evil, Red-Wizard-of-Thay Edwin probably has lunch every weekend with Pit Fiends anyway. And HaearDalis, of all people, unable to control deamons in the same fasion? He can cast gate-related spells from scrolls, or even from memory if you use Rogue Rebalancing, or the PnP bard spell progression of the Tweak Pack. There should be a small chance - say 1/10th his lore skill, for any given gated deamon knowing him personally, and ungating itself rather than attacking its favorite actor.

 

I can see why taking away the protection from evil immunity would make for a bigger challange. But making every Joe Mage immune to his own gated deamons is a big game world change. Even epic level casters should fear to gate in these things. Look what can happen to Ardulace and Phaere - and they're not exactly incompetent spell casters. And Inquisitors gain that much more ground over Chavaliers as THE Paladin kit to pick (even with reduced levels, that dispel is nasty.)

 

If it could be made an optional feature, like the mind flayers' damage resistances, well I'd be happy. Or maybe an option to make it lich only as well. Liches, after all, believe their souls to be safe. And deamons would love to end up with slaves with lich-like spellcasting experience.

 

If not. Well, the SCS mods are hands down the best tactical challange mod writing I've come across. Cheers for revamping the BG series!

[DavidW]

Since you're not the first person to mention it, I'll put in a console option to disable demon summoning by mages. I don't think I can easily make protection-from-evil immunity optional, though.

 

I agree, it's not completely obvious why Edwin doesn't get the right to summon devils. I could make something up, but to be honest this is one of the (three or four, I think) times when I gave myself a holiday from SCS's usual scrupulous attempts to be fair...

 

As for Haer'dalis, all I can say is that my interpretation of demons puts rather less stress on the value of friendship to the tanar'ri...

[Mahokenshi]

Cheers. Optional summoning sounds like a good trade off. And I'm sorry if this was the subject of another thread; I thought I checked for a similar thread... .

 

As for the joinable NPC mages and deamons, I really wasn't being serious, as you could probably tell. I for one wouldn't even want that power; even with an evil conjurer PC. I'd rather earn power (as a character) and overcome challenges with the resources I have now (as a player) instead.

[aVENGER_(RR)]

I don't think I can easily make protection-from-evil immunity optional, though.

 

An idea, if I may. Have a Demon see, but ignore characters who are Protected from Evil unless they are aggressive and attack him. In that case, the protection should end. IIRC, Balors and a few other powerful Demons/Devils can even cast Dispel Magic at will in 2E and they could use it to remove the Protection from Evil from any aggressive partymembers. FYI, this is in-line with the PnP AD&D description of the Protection from Evil spell. I've highlighted the relevant passage:

 

Protection From Evil

(Abjuration)

Reversible

Range: Touch

Components: V, S, M

Duration: 2 rds./level

Casting Time: 1

Area of Effect: Creature touched

Saving Throw: None

 

When this spell is cast, it creates a magical barrier around the recipient at a distance of 1 foot. The barrier moves with the recipient and has three major effects:

 

First, all attacks made by evil (or evilly enchanted) creatures against the protected creature suffer -2 penalties to attack rolls; any saving throws caused by such attacks are made with +2 bonuses.

 

Second, any attempt to possess (as by a magic jar attack) or to exercise mental control over (as by a vampire's charm ability) the protected creature is blocked by this spell. Note that the protection does not prevent a vampire's charm itself, but it does prevent the exercise of mental control through the barrier. Likewise, a possessing life force is merely kept out. It would not be expelled if in place before the protection is cast.

 

Third, the spell prevents bodily contact by creatures of an extraplanar or conjured nature (such as aerial servants, elementals, imps, invisible stalkers, salamanders, water weirds, xorn, and others). This causes the natural (body) weapon attacks of such creatures to fail and the creatures to recoil, if such attacks require touching the protected being. Animals or monsters summoned or conjured by spells or similar magic are likewise hedged from the character. This protection ends if the protected character makes a melee attack against or tries to force the barrier against the blocked creature.

 

To complete this spell, the wizard must trace a 3-foot-diameter circle on the floor (or ground) with powdered silver. This spell can be reversed to become protection from good; the second and third benefits remain unchanged. The material component for the reverse is a circle of powdered iron.

[Salk]

I simply love aVenger's suggestion!

 

Could this be easily done, DavidW?

[DavidW]

I simply love aVenger's suggestion!

 

Could this be easily done, DavidW?

 

It sounds technically possible (and is in principle a very nice idea), but on the other hand it fairly severely nerfs summoned demons, and/or requires lots of code for their summoners to prioritise taking down protection-from-evil spell.

[Salk]

Yes, summons will be fairly nerfed but I do think it's just right.

 

Summons are already abused and too powerful for my tastes and this change would be fair because it'd affect both allied and enemy summons.

 

I am no modder but I'd have actually not thought that adding this bit of code would require much work. I do take your word on it of course.

[DavidW]

Yes, summons will be fairly nerfed but I do think it's just right.

 

Summons are already abused and too powerful for my tastes

 

You reckon? I think a Glabrezu being dumped on your party vs. being hit by Horrid Wilting is pretty much a wash.

 

I am no modder but I'd have actually not thought that adding this bit of code would require much work. I do take your word on it of course.

 

Bear in mind that if demons ignore people protected by pro/evil, any summoner worth their salt will prioritise enemies protected by pro/evil and try to drop their protection. Coding that is a non-trivial addition to the AI. (Normally, pro/evil is a bit too trivial to bother dispelling.)

[Demivrgvs]

Yes, summons will be fairly nerfed but I do think it's just right.

Summons are already abused and too powerful for my tastes...

Actually i've always thought summons were extremely weak...like DavidW said being hit by a 20D8 ADHW is much worse than facing a Glabrezu. Only Glabrezu, Pit Fiens and Elementals were at least useful in vanilla imo...SCS II makes Demons more powerful but they rightly deserve it.

 

Anyway Protection from Evil remains a powerful spell even without making the recipient untouchable by demons. I'd like to see what aVenger suggests but if it requires much work probably it's not worth the trouble.

[aVENGER_(RR)]

Anyway Protection from Evil remains a powerful spell even without making the recipient untouchable by demons. I'd like to see what aVenger suggests but if it requires much work probably it's not worth the trouble.

 

 

Don't forget that Protection From Evil grants complete immunity toward summoned Demons in the unmodded game (now that's overpowered).

 

I think that my suggestion would be a nice middle-ground solution, especially since SCS II is such a seamless and pure AI-enhancing mod and features almost no game rule changes. That is probably one of the main reasons why people enjoy it so much.

 

Also, note that David already took a similar approach with the Protection from Undead scroll and Liches. That works very well IMO, and could be applicable to summoned Demons as well.

[Demivrgvs]

Don't forget that Protection From Evil grants complete immunity toward summoned Demons in the unmodded game (now that's overpowered).

That's exactly why i've never objected to the changes DavidW did. Even with a plain +2 AC, +2 to all saves vs. evil creatures Protection from Evil still remains a fairly powerful 1st level spell imo.

[Salk]

The summons themselves (as far as I get to remember since I played BG2 many years ago) were probably not so strong if we compare what other spells could be cast at the same level but the main point of summons (at least when I played) was not to damage enemies but rather keep them busy while we prepare our next spells undisturbed.

 

So I do believe summoning spells are very effective.

 

Now, I do agree that Protection from Evil is an extremely powerful spell. It's a first level spell and it's supposed to protect against summons unless offensive actions are taken against them.

 

Might be overpowered. I would even dare say that it certainly is but still Protection from Evil should come also with this kind of protection.

 

SCS and SCS II presents, like DavidW himself said, very few situations were the enemies get an unfair advantage over the player.

 

Well, I think it'd be good to rebalance this.