Initial Ideas

[Bibbi]

I guess we should start a thread about what we want/think should happen in the romance?  I'll just post some of my ideas for what I've gathered from hints from the design team or from the bard's personality.

 

initial talks should be the standard getting to know you, exchanging tales about PC's past and Haer's past.  talks about the sword coast, sarevok, sigil, the acting troupe, light stuff.  we delve into deeper things as we talk about learning of our heritage/what it's been like to be a bhaalspawn while haer speaks of the morbid philosophy of the doomguard and applications to real world experiences (whether in his past or on the present journey).

 

i think at this point we might stick in the aerie conflict if it exists, not getting any further with haer until things are settled.  do we want him to try to teach PC acting like he does with aerie, or is that his tact with her? i guess he has other ways of flirting with PC...

 

maybe the experience with aerie will prompt the PC to ask Haer about his past romances/why he flirts so much.  he might give a brief explanation, dodge the issue, give a tale or two of raelis or other lovers, whatever.  PC may talk about her lack of experience within candlekeep if she wants...

 

eventually, haer will make a confession to the PC about his past, and the woman/event that made him decide to become a doomguard and not a sensate.  maybe have some sort of event to trigger this, either a random event we create or some sort of dialogue where the pc presses for truth. i don't see haer as the type to freely admit all of his secrets without good cause.  maybe if we add this with UB's cut quests, this can't happen until we've rescued him from prison or the summoning wizards to prove our feelings...?

 

someone also mentioned something about a turning point in the romance in spellhold when the PC turns into the slayer. maybe end first portion of romance when he admits his tragic past, leaving him vulnerable.  when he sees the slayer, he reverts to his old self to protect himself from his admission from the past, and the pc must convince him either

 

A) to look past the chaos of the slayer and love her for the person she is

 

B) or embrace the chaos she embodies and not to change his views.  

 

this is the major split in the romance, where the deciding factor of his alignment switch occurs at suldanesselar.  A leads to a change in perspective and his rejection of the doomguard while B leaves him as is

 

the romance would then resemble anomen's in its duality.  the A track would become more romantic and emotional, perhaps with some sincere love poetry, while B would be purely physical and superficial with lovely but artifical poems...

 

then the fateful suldanesselar encounter where he must choose between chaos and entropy and his love.  the only thing is, i think it would be a bit unfair to punish the people taking track B to have him attack the party. maybe give an option of talking him down, convincing him that the PC will spread more chaos in the coming days (hinting at ToB) so he remains in the group.

 

so that's my basic idea for SoA.  ToB could follow with a visit from the Doomguard if Haer quits, among other encounters...

 

do we want to have any encounters created for the romance, like the bandits for jaheira or the handmaiden for viconia, or keep it to love talks and perhaps the linking of UB's quests?  maybe a chance to upgrade his weapons since they're only +2? or give him a special musical instrument?  and what about flirts? i for one would love them, but i'm sure we need permission from jc and someone who knows how to script them...

 

my initial ideas for now, to be tossed around and destroyed  

[Eyreequel]

hy and best wished for the mod .... i am certainly looking forward this ....

 

so ... hmmm ... well your ideas are very good bibbi, i like them ! i just have some addtiions such as class-specific talk that could be intigrated into the get to know you talk

 

i see many possibilities if charname is also a bard, he could compete with her and play with her some drama as he diid with aerie, maybe you could get aerie in the whole things too. jealous spats with aerie  

 

i agree with you also that hd wouldnt admit his secrets just cos he feels like it and pc pressing for answers is a great idea, but this is programating a fight between the two if the pc does it in the wrong way, i am sorry if this is hard to understand but my english isnt that good ...

 

one question: would raelis be the type for avenging ? i mean she did let hd very easily go ... maybe she is hurt by the fact that hd found in so little time a new "lover" ?

 maybe its just my crazy disrubed mind but i think she could do that    

 

soooooo okay bye for now

[JPS]

Interesting thoughts, and I hope I'll have time to respond to them soon. I've already given some thought to his weapons, though, so I might as well try to get it all sorted out.

 

I was thinking that sometime after the romance has reached the serious stage, Haer'Dalis would ask the main character to give her blessing to his weapons, or something like that. If she tells him that she has no powers like that, he would explain that his swords come from the outer planes (one of them is made out of metal from Baator, and the other... well, we'll make something up) and since the outer planes are driven and powered by belief, an act of faith would perhaps be enough to change them. And he's willing to believe, so if she believes in her power as well, that might be enough to actually change the swords (and if there's need for additional belief, Minsc has certainly belived in stranger things and might be willing to help   )

 

Anyway, it would of course turn out that he's right (or we might have to face some disappointed players...). The swords would probably change to, say, +3, and get some additional abilities as well. My initial thought was that this entire episode would occur early in chapter six, and that the actual powers of the swords would depend on how the main character has handles turning into the slayer and how she has dealt with HD's reactions. There probably shouldn't be too many alternatives, just enough to make the player's choices matter (in case you haven't noticed, I'm a sucker for player influence   )

 

That might be a bit late in the game, though. I tend to forget that many (most?) players finish all of the optional quests in chapter two and head directly for Bodhi and Irenicus in ch. six and seven. I don't know what weapons Haer'Dalis would have availiable at this stage in the game, but his upgraded swords should be slightly better than that. Or the entire thing could be moved to an earlier part of the romance, but I somehow feel that this requires a dramatic moment, and that the slayer change should be a dramatic moment, so why not combine them and save ourselves a moment?

 

JPS

[JPS]

Alright, I might as well go ahead and write another reply while I'm at it. I don't know when I'll be here next, and I happened to set eyes on a part of your post that I must have missed on my first time through:

 

someone also mentioned something about a turning point in the romance in spellhold when the PC turns into the slayer. maybe end first portion of romance when he admits his tragic past, leaving him vulnerable.  when he sees the slayer, he reverts to his old self to protect himself from his admission from the past, and the pc must convince him either

 

A) to look past the chaos of the slayer and love her for the person she is

 

B) or embrace the chaos she embodies and not to change his views.  

 

this is the major split in the romance, where the deciding factor of his alignment switch occurs at suldanesselar.  A leads to a change in perspective and his rejection of the doomguard while B leaves him as is

 

the romance would then resemble anomen's in its duality.  the A track would become more romantic and emotional, perhaps with some sincere love poetry, while B would be purely physical and superficial with lovely but artifical poems...

 

Well, that "someone" was me, and I realise that I should have elaborated a bit more on that. It's never too late to make amends, though, so here's my take on love, devotion and commitment, the Haer'Dalis way:

 

While I do agree with you that it should be possible to make Haer'Dalis see past the entire bhaalspawn thing and love Charname for who she really is, I think that you're not seeing the other path the same way that HD would (yes, I'm developing multiple personalities here, but it's all for your benefit ). He would certainly not be attracted to a, let's call it type b bhalspawn on a merely superficial and physical level.

 

I've been making a big issue of HD being fascinated by his potential lover turning into the slayer, and I think that's exactly the way to go in a type b relationship (err... I sound like a psychology textbook, but it can't be helped). Haer'Dalis would not just be interested in a type b character, he would be fascinated to the point of obsession, feeling that she embodies the inevitable destruction of everything, far beyond anything that his Doomguard ethos calls for. He would have no illusions about living happily ever after with his newfound love – he would be eager to go out in flames with her. All men must die, after all, but not all men die in a cosmic cataclysm, with a daughter of a dead god of murder by their side. It might not make sense to everybody, but it would certainly make sense to him. And, incidentally, I think he would write some of his best poems in the process...

 

He would not reach the truly obsessive stage without her driving him on though, so this path wouldn't have to end in death and destruction. If the main character has promised him undying love and the end of the world, however, it would probably be difficult to keep him under control during the battle in Suldanesselar. The only solution I can think of would be to convince him that a little fight against an evil wizard who plans to use your soul to become a god isn't worth wasting a cosmic cataclysm on. That way, his expectations would probably be raised to unreasonable heights for a future Throne of Bhaal part of the romance. He would certainly be dissapointed if she just decides to become the new god of murder, and doesn't even explode a little  

 

And then there's of course path A, where he becomes everybody's favourite prince charming, but for some reason I feel a little out of breath after this post, so I'll discuss that later  

 

Do note, however, that I'm not suggesting that he turns evil even if the main character does evil deeds and he supports her and encourages her. He'd certainly be irresponsible and short-sighted, and quite possibly delusional, but not evil. Consequently, he probably wouldn't turn good for a good character either, at least not during the actual game. After a lifetime, perhaps, provided that he stays with her that long, but not after seventy-four days of adventuring. But I seem to recall writing another post about alignment chance recently, so I'll leave it at this.

 

JPS

[Bibbi]

okay, I like your ideas so far, and I agree with the alignment shift thing- not to good or evil necessarily as that's not how he'll change.  

 

I just wanted to put a quick comment on about the upgraded weapons- it's a good idea, and i think we should advertise on the mod to delay finishing all of the quests until after spellhold.  that way, if the slayer change is the turning point of the romance, we still have chap 6 to continue the second part of his romance. and if there are no quests left for the players in chap 6, they're going to be bored sitting around for lovetalks.  plus, then they'll get to use his new swords for more quests besides bhodi and suldanesselar

[Barren Fischa]

Well, HD's swords are already improved in weimer's Item Upgrade. But I'd like to remind you that we have another forum for discussing this kind of suttf, and that you should PM me if yu want to have access to it. This forum should be mre like a general information forum.

[JPS]

Oh, I didn't know that the swords were in the Item Upgrade. I tend to upgrade my own items, so I haven't really looked at that mod.

 

I sent you a mail about the workroom forum already, but I suppose I could PM you as well in case that didn't work. All my posts in this forum, by the way, should be seen as suggestions, and not necessarily things that I think should be included in the mod at all costs. I'll pester you with those things in the workroom forum

 

JPS

[Guest Guest]

Ohhhhh... I only HOPE He will not become like Anomen, picking flowers and weeping on my Slayer's shoulder...

In my view sweet Dalis must be charming but not weak because of his falling in love. T'is not his first love by the way, but he'll need quite a time to realise that THIS one is true...

And not too much tortures in the past, I hope, - he is supposed to be loved, not pitied.

 

(emnn, excuse my english, I hope I sayed what I meant...)

 

Kania Blade

[Guest Guest]

And...

>do we want to have any encounters created for the romance, like the bandits for jaheira or the handmaiden for viconia, or keep it to love talks...

 

I'd personally prefer only love talks... Many...

 

And I'd never "press" on him to make him tell me about his past, if he does not want that. Maybe he'll himself want to tell me something?

[JPS]

I think that a lot of the problems with the Anomen romance have to do with the way it was written. All of the original romances follow a very basic problem–solution pattern, which is a great way to write if you don't have a lot of time. You basically present a situation ("Anomen is a pompus idiot"), find a problem ("he had a troubled childhood"), throw in a solution ("you're supportive and understanding") and then get a new situation ("Anomen is a pompus idiot who's in love with you").

 

The structure is a bit on the simple side, and the problem and solution that were chosen in this particular case aren't exactly the best (am I the only one who thinks Anomen needs a therapist rather than a girlfriend?), but it makes a lot of sense in the context where it was written. The romances were considered a very small part of the game, and the developers probably didn't think that they would be very popular with the audience. If I'm not terribly mistaken, the romances were literally written in a week. And even if they had been planned as a big thing, there's only so much time that can be spent on an individual element of a game, so they probably couldn't have gotten a lot more time even then.

 

Now, as you might have noticed, getting things done quickly isn't my highest priority ( ), so I've had time to work around all of the mistakes that I've able to discover (I'm sure I've made a lot of mistakes of my own, but that's a different story). There are problems to be encountered in this romance as well, but I've tried to keep them to the kinds of things that are likely to turn up in any relationship (if this relationship involved dead gods, interdimensional travel and lots and lots of battles, that is) instead of things that you'd be better off getting professional help for.

 

Also:

 

>do we want to have any encounters created for the romance, like the bandits for jaheira or the handmaiden for viconia, or keep it to love talks...

 

I'd personally prefer only love talks... Many...

 

There will be two quests, which are based on the quests that were planned but then cut from the game along with the romance. They're not "created for the romance" as such, but they will tie in with it (at first I planned to make them optional, but writing a romance that would work both with and without the quests would have been a lot too complicated for me).

 

There will also be many lovetalks, however, so I hope you'll be happy anyway.

 

And I'd never "press" on him to make him tell me about his past, if he does not want that. Maybe he'll himself want to tell me something? 

 

Oh, he'll talk, all right. I have in fact had to cut a lot of the background material from the actual lovetalks and turned it into a series of separate conversations (which will be triggered by the player so it doesn't drive people who aren't interested to madness, and which will be availiable even if you're not romancing him).

[Domi]

Oh, he'll talk, all right. I have in fact had to cut a lot of the background material from the actual lovetalks and turned it into a series of separate conversations (which will be triggered by the player so it doesn't drive people who aren't interested to madness, and which will be availiable even if you're not romancing him).

 

Good idea that - a friendship sequence started up by the interested player

[JPS]

It especially seemed like a good idea to move large parts of the Planescape-related material outside the main lovetalk track. There's a lot of cool stuff there that I want to include, but a lot of it isn't really relevant to the romance as such.

 

I'd been planning to include friendship-talks pretty much from the start, and this seemed like just the kind of thing that would fit.

[Domi]

Great idea and good luck. Heh, I envy you in a good way that you can spend all this time on one character and think it so thoroughly... One day, one day...

[Guest Kania Blade]

Oh, JPS, you frightened me!

I had no romance with Anomen (only read the .TLK) and my english is not that good, so at first I thought you said it's me, who needs a doctor.

I've finished reading everything on Dalis forum and came to a conclusion that DalisRomance is going to be a masterpiece.

VERY good luck to you and everybody who help you!

Moscow is patiently waiting for one sweet blue-haired pointy-ears...