Main component

[Guest guest]

I don't like the way the main component comes with so many different changes, I haven't installed this mod yet, and I daren't because I get the impression i'll press enter after typing 'I' to the main component and I'll get a whole list of unwanted changes; from store discounts to druid armor changes to general weapon changes. Please tell me this is not so? If it is, I think you'd achieve a lot more approval and thanks if you went ahead and made those into selectable components.

 

I want cool new weapons but don't appreciate the other stuff being bundled with it...why oh why would I expect lore tables to change if I want some new items...seriously.

 

As I say, I get the impression from the wording in the readme that the only thing in the main component over which I have any choice is the masterwork weapons.

 

I hope i'm wrong.

[Demivrgvs]

I don't like the way the main component comes with so many different changes, I haven't installed this mod yet, and I daren't because I get the impression i'll press enter after typing 'I' to the main component and I'll get a whole list of unwanted changes; from store discounts to druid armor changes to general weapon changes. Please tell me this is not so? If it is, I think you'd achieve a lot more approval and thanks if you went ahead and made those into selectable components.

 

I want cool new weapons but don't appreciate the other stuff being bundled with it...why oh why would I expect lore tables to change if I want some new items...seriously.

Let's see the list of "unwanted" changes:

 

* Store Prices: adjusting items prices is necessary due to the large amount of powerful items available to the player with IR. Without it charname would be absurdly rich and could sell and buy a lot of wonderful items at ridiculously convenient prices.

 

* Druid's Armor: the way IR handles armors having fighter/druids unable to wear metal armors is not a nerf at all.

 

* Lore Tables: seriously...why oh why would you expect this this change to affect your game in a bad way? Most tables are unchanged, the only noticeable change is the bard's table, which has been nerfed to avoid having a 5th level bard recognize an almost unknown artifact from the planes while having a 10th level archer unable to identify simple magical arrows.

 

* Weapon changes: some weapons were clearly underpowered, and I've tried to allow the player to chose from any weapon type and select whatever wapon style without having to think "everyone must dual wield katanas and flails, it's the only way to go!".

Why would you complain about having spears finally deal decent damage or xbows finally having a chance to be as useful as bows?

[jon-eli]

Can I ask, Demi; is there any chance more elements of the main component could be separated out? Personally I'd still install them, but the more modular the... ahh... mod is, the more likely it is you'll please everyone with this beautiful mod of yours, no?

 

Not to mention that people might prefer to use, say, the StorePrices mod, in place of your own changes. And I think that *many* people are used to Jaheira wearing full plate; Jaheira in studded leather takes a lot of getting used to, and certainly isn't for everyone.

[Icendoan]

You CAN edit the mod yourself to cut out changes you don't like, and people have written guides on how to do this.

 

The more modular it is, the longer it takes. This is the main reason why such mods as the BG2Fixpack are usually in the one package, because it has thousands of fixes. Would you want to install all these manually?

 

Icen

[jon-eli]

You CAN edit the mod yourself to cut out changes you don't like, and people have written guides on how to do this.

As a professional programmer, I have, strangely, mastered the art of inserting comment-syntax around pieces of code that I don't like. I was speaking more on behalf of the people for whom this is either troublesome or not possible.

 

The more modular it is, the longer it takes. This is the main reason why such mods as the BG2Fixpack are usually in the one package, because it has thousands of fixes.

Fixes? Or tweaks...? Hehe.

 

But seriously, the fixpack is a special case, and not really a good comparison. Making one or two more things optional would hardly take very long... I was mainly asking if Demi was concerned about extra modularity being an unbalancing force, or something of the sort.

[Demivrgvs]

Can I ask, Demi; is there any chance more elements of the main component could be separated out?

Not installing changes to store prices and lore tables is as easy as commenting out an single item...but I'll think about it.

 

Not to mention that people might prefer to use, say, the StorePrices mod, in place of your own changes.

I think installing StorePrices after SR should be fine. As I said my issue with making this optional is that it's quite necessary to change vanilla's values to avoid unbalancing the game in favor of the player.

 

And I think that *many* people are used to Jaheira wearing full plate; Jaheira in studded leather takes a lot of getting used to, and certainly isn't for everyone.

You have a point, but actually Jaheira is a perfect example of character that with IR works great in light armor, as in heavy armor she would suffer a -3 penalty to DEX.

 

I was mainly asking if Demi was concerned about extra modularity being an unbalancing force, or something of the sort.

It depends, lore tables obviously doesn't cause unbalancing issues, but weapon global changes are necessary imo (except perhaps flail's changes which are mostly done to make it more special rather than balanced).

 

Note that IR's items are designed taking into account all these things. For example I give slightly better abilities to daggers to offset their low damage output, I give "druidic" abilities to a few leather/hide armors, and so on...

[jon-eli]

Not installing changes to store prices and lore tables is as easy as commenting out an single item...but I'll think about it.

The lore table is very easily overridden. It's probably not worth its own component... which is what you were thinking too, hmm?

 

I think installing StorePrices after SR should be fine. As I said my issue with making this optional is that it's quite necessary to change vanilla's values to avoid unbalancing the game in favor of the player.

I agree completely with your rationale vis-a-vis the changes being necessary; but StorePrices actually applies a modifier to whatever values already exist within the *.sto files, rather than working with a set value. Therefore a reduction of 33% is actually a 33% reduction of the item_rev value, rather than the vanilla value. Not that it matters, I suppose; but it is a little confusing. And, to boot, StorePrices is more flexible... not that I mean to sound evangelical about it.

 

You have a point, but actually Jaheira is a perfect example of character that with IR works great in light armor, as in heavy armor she would suffer a -3 penalty to DEX.

Ahh... this is true. I like this mod for this kind of reason; the game becomes more of a lateral thinking puzzle with no hard and fast answers.

[DrAzTiK]

Druid's Armor: the way IR handles armors having fighter/druids unable to wear metal armors is not a nerf at all.

 

You have a point, but actually Jaheira is a perfect example of character that with IR works great in light armor, as in heavy armor she would suffer a -3 penalty to DEX.

 

I thought that restriction for fighter/druids was a way to balance multiclassed.

 

Imo it's not nice and consistent to make heavy armor as appealing than light armor for character with hight dexterity. Wear a heavy armor is privilege from fighters class and this privilege deserve to be notable, especially for CA bonus. In vanilla, when a fighter is unable to wear an heavy armor, it's considered as a penality. ( barbarian, stalker, bowman).

 

 

Both penality (dexterity and movement) are too much imo for balance. Special mention to full plate : character is damn slowed ( I think you and others underestimate a lot this penality) and take -3 dexterity in the face and so -1 or -2 thac0 for ranged weapons. Sorry but it's too much for me

 

Personally, I actually play only with movements penality ( a fair penality in comparaison to dexterity penality) and armors seems to be balanced for me . Valygar is not as proud than before in front of Sarevok now. ( but he still run faster than him )

 

Sorry, I love your mod but I don't like dexterity penality at all. It's too much for heavy armor and it's not fair (characters with low dexterity are not penalized) . I don't understand that nobody complain about it....

 

Imho , movement penality and a fair thac0 penality (like you have done for shields) could be a better fair and consistent way to balance heavy armor...

[Salk]

Sorry, I love your mod but I don't like dexterity penality at all. It's too much for heavy armor and it's not fair (characters with low dexterity are not penalized) . I don't understand that nobody complain about it....

 

Instead I don't understand why you are so saddened by the fact that there is this option. You don't have to install it, you know.

 

I play with the dexterity penalty and NOT the movement penalty, for instance. I find it is the most balanced solution.

[jon-eli]

I thought that restriction for fighter/druids was a way to balance multiclassed.

I've always made this change locally, as I find it very jarring that fighter/druids are restricted by druidic ethos in regards to weapon selection, but somehow don't feel restricted by their ethos when it comes to armor type. That's my reasoning for it... And I don't hold a copyright on that reasoning, so by all means take it if you like it.

 

Both penality (dexterity and movement) are too much imo for balance.

I'll leave others to talk about balance... For myself, I've always been more concerned with realism, and keeping my disbelief suspended. I feel that these systems (dex, speed, thac0, etc. penalties) are more realistic, and they make my game experience more immersive. That's what I get out of it. I know others are different.

 

Valygar is not as proud than before in front of Sarevok now. ( but he still run faster than him )

Okay, that made me smile.

 

And honestly, this is all good discussion. You like the mod, but there are some things that bother you about it... And by coming here and speaking your mind you're saying things that I'm sure others feel like saying, but can't find the energy, or the words, to say it right, or feel intimidated for some reason.

 

More is more.

[DrAzTiK]

Instead I don't understand why you are so saddened by the fact that there is this option. You don't have to install it, you know.

 

Yes but I 'am not supposed to know what is the best option for balance before I play a new game. I have the feeling when I read the "readme" and comments in this forum that Movement Speed and Dexterity Penalties in Heavy Armor (Option 1) is the best for balance. Unfortunately, I discover after many many hours (in TOB) that it's not the best option for balance .

 

lol, you can't say to players : " take composent you want, maybe it will be it will be balanced with luck"

[Demivrgvs]

IR and StorePrices mod

I agree completely with your rationale vis-a-vis the changes being necessary; but StorePrices actually applies a modifier to whatever values already exist within the *.sto files, rather than working with a set value. Therefore a reduction of 33% is actually a 33% reduction of the item_rev value, rather than the vanilla value. Not that it matters, I suppose; but it is a little confusing. And, to boot, StorePrices is more flexible... not that I mean to sound evangelical about it.

Judging from your description I'd say that StorePrices mod is perfectly compatible with IR as I haven't touched .STO files except for adding or moving items. I've adjusted each item price yes, but in the respective .ITM files, thus changes applied to store prices from that mod will work the same way with or without IR.

 

Druids restrictions

You have a point, but actually Jaheira is a perfect example of character that with IR works great in light armor, as in heavy armor she would suffer a -3 penalty to DEX.

Ahh... this is true. I like this mod for this kind of reason; the game becomes more of a lateral thinking puzzle with no hard and fast answers.

Thanks, that was one of my main goal.

 

Heavy armor vs. light armor

Imo it's not nice and consistent to make heavy armor as appealing than light armor for character with hight dexterity. Wear a heavy armor is privilege from fighters class and this privilege deserve to be notable, especially for CA bonus. In vanilla, when a fighter is unable to wear an heavy armor, it's considered as a penality. ( barbarian, stalker, bowman).

I have discussed this very point a lot of times, heavy armors are still better than light armors even for characters with high dexterity. Please search on this very forum for these discussions.

 

Imho , movement penality and a fair thac0 penality (like you have done for shields) could be a better fair and consistent way to balance heavy armor...

I was thinking some time ago to apply a penalty to "weapon speed factor" in heavier armors.

 

Sorry, I love your mod but I don't like dexterity penality at all. It's too much for heavy armor and it's not fair (characters with low dexterity are not penalized) . I don't understand that nobody complain about it....

Perhaps because I have convinced with with good arguments that what I did was a nice and balanced solution. Salk for example didn't liked "dexterity penalites" at all if I'm not wrong, but than end up appreciating the component.

 

Instead I don't understand why you are so saddened by the fact that there is this option. You don't have to install it, you know.

Yes but I 'am not supposed to know what is the best option for balance before I play a new game. I have the feeling when I read the "readme" and comments in this forum that Movement Speed and Dexterity Penalties in Heavy Armor (Option 1) is the best for balance. Unfortunately, I discover after many many hours (in TOB) that it's not the best option for balance.

I've demostrated with facts in these forums (I'll post here a link if I have the time) that dexterity penalties are necessary for balance purposes, and movement rate penalties are too imo, but in a much lesser extent.

[DrAzTiK]

Hummm, finally i think I must apologize... The fact is in vanilla there is not a lot of enchanted armors of plates and full plates in comparaison to light armors. (there is a +6 light armor and the max for full plate is +3...). So in my game, I think I had the sensation that light armors were overpowed a bit...

 

So Movement Speed and Dexterity Penalties in Heavy Armor is surely the best way for balance.

 

Soory guys

[jon-eli]

Soory guys

There's nothing to be sorry for... Expressing opinions is the whole point of this place.

[Demivrgvs]

Hummm, finally i think I must apologize... (*)

 

So Movement Speed and Dexterity Penalties in Heavy Armor is surely the best way for balance.

 

Soory guys

You really don't need to apologize! I'm glad our opinions converged!

 

(*)

The fact is in vanilla there is not a lot of enchanted armors of plates and full plates in comparaison to light armors. (there is a +6 light armor and the max for full plate is +3...). So in my game, I think I had the sensation that light armors were overpowed a bit...

I didn't know you haven't the main component installed! You have pointed out something I generally forgot to mention. With IR's main component installed, hard to obtain heavy armors can have high enchantement levels, unlike in vanilla where they were quite less enchanted than light armors (perhaps for balancing purposes? ).

 

This also shows why I generally don't like to have too many separate components. Main Component's armors aren't balanced without Dexterity Penalties, and at the same time Dexterity Penalties may be unbalanced with vanilla's armors.