Main component

[DrAzTiK]

Many high enchanted light armors in vanilla . Maybe for balance yes ^^.

 

Just to finish, i still wonder about full plate. Ok I have not installed main composent but in comparaison to plate armor, full plate seem to be not very appealing except for characters with low exterity.

 

I mean : in full plate, you are frighteningly slowed and you have more or less same AC than a plate armor no?? ( only + 1 AC in most case coz of -3 dexterity). Ok there is hidden bonus but I wonder if it's enough to make them so appealing ?

[DrAzTiK]

Hum, spend long time to think about it this night and somethink still disturbe me :

 

"heavy armors are still better than light armors even for characters with high dexterity."

 

Of course I understood but difference seems to be very very minimal. (+1 between full plate and plate by exemple). Maybe this apreciation is personnal for each but for my part, I think that heavy armors should be a lot more appealing in terme of AC in comparaison to light armors.

 

Imo Fighters need and deserve a good AC, not others. If a fighter is unable to wear an heavy armor, it should be seen as a huge penality. I think especially about some powerfull kit ( barbarian, kensai, stalker, bowman), multiclassed fighters/thief and fighters/druid etc...

 

Well I think it 's ma definitive opinion lol

[Jarno Mikkola]

IMO, Fighters need and deserve a good AC, not others. If a fighter is unable to wear an heavy armor, it should be seen as a huge penality. I think especially about some powerfull kit (barbarian, kensai, stalker, bowman), multiclassed fighters/thief and fighters/druid etc...

So you are thinking that the dexterity penality should be made not to effect single class none kitted fighters, rangers, paladins... and the like, but still effect most of the others, like the once you said.

[DrAzTiK]

Imo a penality should be fair and apply for all characters.

 

I just say that in vanilla, some kits and multiclassed can't wear heavy armor to balance powerness of these kits or some multiclassed. For them, impossibility to wear heavy armor is listed in "class penality" not in " minor drawback"

 

In vanilla, Heavy armor are supposed to be in most situation and in general a lot of more appealing in comparaison to lights armor, especially for AC bonus.

 

It's not consistent to make a Ferrari as appealing a 2CV. (even if 2CV roxx)

 

I am ok to say that lights armor are too much weak in vanilla but I don't know if they deserve to be almost as good as heavy armor. ( at least for AC bonus)

I like movement penality, it gives a somethink special for light armors. But i think that dexterity penality decrease AC bonus of heavy armor too much and I don't know if they deserve it.

 

It make some kits (already powerfull) and thief/fighters more better. Single class Fighters are penalized and they are already not so advantaged in BG2.

[Jarno Mikkola]

Imo

Could you please use "IMO" instead... as the expression is "In My Opinion"... encumbered nuisance. Imoen.

 

I am ok to say that lights armor are too much weak in vanilla but I don't know if they deserve to be almost as good as heavy armor. ( at least for AC bonus)

I like movement penality, it gives a somethink special for light armors. But i think that dexterity penality decrease AC bonus of heavy armor too much and I don't know if they deserve it.

Well, you can choose which ever choice you wish, you know... I'll use the Dex penalty, you can use the Movement speed penalty.

 

It make some kits (already powerfull) and thief/fighters more better. Single class Fighters are penalized and they are already not so advantaged in BG2.

Well, the thief needs to be at really high level to be able to be a good thief in the heavy armor, so they loose a lot of experience there, and Kensais can't wear armor, just the bracers...

Besides that, there is no pure fighters anymore as the Berserker get's all their abilities and no penelties.

Bowman looses the Dex, so he is worse with the bows...

So only Barbarian get's something out of the abjustment, if I remember right.

[DrAzTiK]

I don't speak about " Allow Thieving Skills in Armor composant"

 

When I say thief/fighters : I mean multiclass fighters/thief

 

IMO Lights armors are too much appealing and it make some class (more or less well balanced) who can wear only light armor more powerfull if both composents are installed (dexterity and movement).

 

In contrary, it make single fighters worse and they are already pretty weak in BG2 .

 

I know : composents are optionnel. I just want to be sure what is the most balanced solution before I start a new game ^^ What is your opinon ?

 

ps : But i think that the main question is : Does light armors deserve to be balanced and be (almost) as appealing that heavy armor ?

[jon-eli]

I like movement penality, it gives a somethink special for light armors. But i think that dexterity penality decrease AC bonus of heavy armor too much and I don't know if they deserve it.

Actually, this makes me wonder how balanced the kensai becomes... Surely a kensai with barkskin cast, should not have better AC than a fighter in full plate?

 

Kensai with 18 dex and barkskin cast by an 8th level druid, has AC -2.

Fighter with 18 dex and full plate, has a 3 point dex penalty, which gives AC 0.

 

This is why you need bonus damage resistance for heavy armor... to balance the dex penalty.

[Jarno Mikkola]

ps : But i think that the main question is : Does light armors deserve to be balanced and be (almost) as appealing that heavy armor ?

Ask it the other way around... "Should there be any +6 light armors when there is barely a +3 Full Plate armor.

 

In my opinion, it would be more likely that there would be several +8 Full Plate armors in the game, as the game has a +6 Leather armor.

Yes, the +8 Full Plate armor would be obviously expensive and all that, but it was made from the best armor materials in the Forgotten Realms by dwarves which was then blessed by the gods in the Elf-Dwarf coalition that once were united, not from an odd creatures hide in a day(or actually in 15 minutes ).

[Demivrgvs]

Of course I understood but difference seems to be very very minimal. (+1 between full plate and plate by exemple). Maybe this apreciation is personnal for each but for my part, I think that heavy armors should be a lot more appealing in terme of AC in comparaison to light armors.

 

Imo Fighters need and deserve a good AC, not others. If a fighter is unable to wear an heavy armor, it should be seen as a huge penality. I think especially about some powerfull kit (barbarian, kensai, stalker, bowman), multiclassed fighters/thief and fighters/druid etc...

You're not making a "fair" comparison, as you've compared two heavy armors (plate and full plate) and then you considered the +1 AC difference between them as if it is the difference between light and heavy armors.

 

The AC difference between light armor and heavy armor (e.g. studded leather vs. full plate) is 6 AC points, and even with DEX 18 characters the difference is +3 AC in favor of heavy armor. How can you say a +3 AC is not a noticeable advantage?

 

I know : composents are optionnel. I just want to be sure what is the most balanced solution before I start a new game ^^ What is your opinon ?

IR's heavy armors without dexterity penalties are way overpowered compared to medium and light armors, and it's not an opinion, it's math.

 

ps : But i think that the main question is : Does light armors deserve to be balanced and be (almost) as appealing that heavy armor?

This instead may be a matter of tastes, but I do prefer to have a wider range of possible choices instead of reducing everything to "always equip the heviest armor".

 

That being said, heavier armor still grant better protection.

 

Actually, this makes me wonder how balanced the kensai becomes... Surely a kensai with barkskin cast, should not have better AC than a fighter in full plate?

 

Kensai with 18 dex and barkskin cast by an 8th level druid, has AC -2.

Fighter with 18 dex and full plate, has a 3 point dex penalty, which gives AC 0.

Again not a perfect comparison imo:

- Barkskin doesn't last forever and is dispellable

- enchanted heavy armors grants much better AC values (up to AC -4) than vanilla's Barkskin (AC 1)

- still your fighter wouldn't require sky high dexterity score to reach good AC levels, while Kensai always have to rely on dexterity

 

Last but not least this issue doesn't exist at all with Spell Revisions Barkskin.

 

This is why you need bonus damage resistance for heavy armor... to balance the dex penalty.

Indeed, in the next version I do want to implement physical damage resistance for armors as discussed here.

[jon-eli]

- enchanted heavy armors grants much better AC values (up to AC -4) than vanilla's Barkskin (AC 1)

Yeah, but... perhaps you've achieved an overall balance, without achieving balance during the early stages of the game? Barkskin is dirt cheap; a 2nd level druidic spell. But you're right, it just doesn't cut mustard against that Full Plate +10 you find on Frennedan's corpse in chapter 1.

 

Last but not least this issue doesn't exist at all with Spell Revisions Barkskin.

Spell R-- what? Is this some kind of a mod or something? Does anyone actually use it? Hehe.

[DrAzTiK]

You're not making a "fair" comparison, as you've compared two heavy armors (plate and full plate) and then you considered the +1 AC difference between them as if it is the difference between light and heavy armor

 

I know that difference is bigger between heavy armors and light armor. But even here, only +1AC (while more slowed) disturb me a litlle.

 

How can you say a +3 AC is not a noticeable advantage

Compensate by the fact to be slowed and thac0 penality.

 

But as you say, balance entirely heavy and light armors is a matter of taste. I just thought that the goal was to balance them just a litlle, and so the misunderstanding.

Admit that doing this could have unbalanced consequences for some kits and multiclassed characters as I have said

 

 

Ask it the other way around... "Should there be any +6 light armors when there is barely a +3 Full Plate armor.

I 'am sorry but I don't understand what you want to mean ??

[Jarno Mikkola]

Ask it the other way around... "Should there be any +6 light armors when there is barely a +3 Full Plate armor.

I 'am sorry but I don't understand what you want to mean ?

Just that the heavy armors aren't as heavily enhanced as the light armors.

 

Which is against all military principles. Well, at least I think so... as I wouldn't put logs of wood into a rockets so they might catch fire when it arrives at the target zone, but something that explodes, like a nuke.

[DrAzTiK]

Yes in vanilla heavy armors aren't as heavily enhanced as the light armors, it don't disturb a lot (while a bit strange) coz heavy armors are very very more appealing that light armors. ^^

[Demivrgvs]

- enchanted heavy armors grants much better AC values (up to AC -4) than vanilla's Barkskin (AC 1)

Yeah, but... perhaps you've achieved an overall balance, without achieving balance during the early stages of the game? Barkskin is dirt cheap; a 2nd level druidic spell.

Actually vanilla Barkskin grants AC 6 at low levels, and slowly improves up to AC 1 at 20th caster level, thus heavy armors are better at any stage of the game.

 

Last but not least this issue doesn't exist at all with Spell Revisions Barkskin.

Spell R-- what? Is this some kind of a mod or something? Does anyone actually use it? Hehe.

I can't understand if you're joking or what...

 

You're not making a "fair" comparison, as you've compared two heavy armors (plate and full plate) and then you considered the +1 AC difference between them as if it is the difference between light and heavy armor

I know that difference is bigger between heavy armors and light armor. But even here, only +1AC (while more slowed) disturb me a litlle.

If you don't like the slowed movements it's a different matter, and you are free to install the option without encumbered movements. If it wasn't for the movement penalties though plate mail would be completely useless compared to full plate, in fact in vanilla not a single plate mail was appealing unless you compare an incredibly enchanted one against a low enchanted full plate. You may not like the system, and I accept it, but from a balancing point of view it's correct.

 

Admit that doing this could have unbalanced consequences for some kits and multiclassed characters as I have said

Long story short, no. I don't have the time to be fully exhaustive, but I'll try to explain it anyway.

 

First of all the tweak cannot make anyone more powerful than before, and thus it can't unbalance anything, it can only potentially "nerf" something. Let's look at the classes you've mentioned as "more powerful with the tweak":

* Archer can't wear medium and heavy armor and thus "aren't affected"

* Barbarian can't wear heavy armor, and suffer a small penalty in medium armor

* Fighter/Thief in medium and heavy armor either can't use thieving skills or suffer huge penalties. Anyway they are as penalized as plain fighters in combat.

 

The fighter classes may be considered slightly "nerfed" by this tweak, but only in terms of power playing.

 

Characters more heavily affected by dexterity penalties are those built a la power player with 18 score on everything, while the tweak provide incentives to build characters a la PnP (quick, agile characters in light armor and strong, slow characters in heavy armors). Note that vanilla's NPCs are indeed built as a roleplayer would build them (e.g. Keldorn and Anomen have low dexterity and are excellent with heavy armor, suffering no penalties at all), and I gladly noticed that most NPC modders did the same.

 

Last but not least you're not taking into account the "hidden" AC bonuses: full plate is by far the best one on this matter with its +4 bonus to AC vs. slashing weapons and +3 vs. piercing/missile weapons (studded leather for example has +2 and +1 respectively).

[jon-eli]

Actually vanilla Barkskin grants AC 6 at low levels, and slowly improves up to AC 1 at 20th caster level, thus heavy armors are better at any stage of the game.

Good heavy armor is usually (a) expensive or (b) hard to find. Barkskin is free from day 0, hour 0. Also, kensai has very little to balance his bonus thac0 and damage, because the gap between his AC and that of a fighter in heavy armor is not very large, especially when you consider that he can always wear rings/amulets of protection, since he never wears enchanted armor.

 

I can't understand if you're joking or what...

Me...? Joke? Naw...

 

(Seriously though, I only take shots at mods I really like... If I didn't like your work, I wouldn't have so much to say.)