Clerics (outdated concept)

[yarpen]

Mhm, this Lathander's Lay on Hands could be fine. But what do you think about something more unique? Hmm... Touch of Radiance, which restores 2k8 hp, remove drained level, fatigue and other negative effects or deal 2k8 damage to undead and blinds for 5 rounds?

[Aranthys]

Mhm, this Lathander's Lay on Hands could be fine. But what do you think about something more unique? Hmm... Touch of Radiance, which restores 2k8 hp, remove drained level, fatigue and other negative effects or deal 2k8 damage to undead and blinds for 5 rounds?

How about modifying the kits so that they get some special abilities, kinda like the druid kits ?

 

BASE BONUS :

Some new spells at each level for Talos priests, kinda like an avenger.

Stronger healing abilities for Lothander priests (Luck-based ? not sure if it's possible).

Strong fighting abilities for Helm priests (+1 TACO / +1 Damage every 5 level)

 

SPECIFIC ABILITIES :

- An ability that's Vengeance-storm like for Talos priests, that deals elemental damage to all ennemies in the vicinity.

- An ability that's Sunray-like for lothander priests, that heal the party and deal damage to undeads. Heals 1d4 per level / deals 1d4 damage per level to undeads, usable once a day every 5 level

- An improved true-sight for Helm priests : Dissipate any illusion on the ennemies, and any fear / feebleminded / confusion effect on the party.

Usable once a day every 5 levels.

 

SPECIFIC WEAPON :

For each priest, a summonable weapon that acts like an upgradable magic weapon, and lasts X turns (Fixed duration) where the priests is proficient.

 

Something like :

At level 1-6 : +1 weapon

Level 7-12 : +2 weapon

Level 12-18 : +3 weapon

Level 19+ : +4 weapon

 

The additional effects of the weapon would depend on the kit.

 

Most important thing to consider is to have a theme for each kit.

Lothander priests would be "Healing / Antiundead" kit : Weapon deals additional damage against undead ( maybe additional healing ability too ?) & protects against usual undead traits (Paralysis, level drain, attribute drain)

Helm priests would be the "Fighting" kit : Weapon grants 1 additional attack & TACO bonus).

Talos priests would be the "Mage-cleric" kit : Weapon grants -1 to cast time & maybe a luck bonus for spell damage abilities).

 

Tempus : ? To discuss

Shar : ? To discuss

 

Now that we've set the bonus traits for each kit, let's discuss what kind of limitations we need to implement :

- Alignment restrictions for each kit

- Other limitations ()

[Guest Guest]

Don't forget about the Strifeleader of Cyric for Tiax!

[Ardanis]

How about modifying the kits so that they get some special abilities, kinda like the druid kits ?

You know, I probably agree on this. Not in particular because I dislike domain slots, but mainly due to them occupying quite a space in the innate bar. I'm near 50/50 between this and domain slots.

[Demivrgvs]

How about modifying the kits so that they get some special abilities, kinda like the druid kits ?

You know, I probably agree on this. Not in particular because I dislike domain slots, but mainly due to them occupying quite a space in the innate bar. I'm near 50/50 between this and domain slots.

I'm not sure if Aranthys was suggesting to remove domain spells, as all his suggestions remain within my proposed template without overlapping anything. He proposed one base "permanent" bonus plus one specific ability per kit, and the two granted powers in my template generally are a base bonus and a once per day ability. The specific weapons are surely an important part, and what he's suggesting is similar to one of the two solutions I had in mind (for Talos I also thought about Lightning Bolts usable a la Melf Minute Meteors ), but I'm not sure if making them outshine their respective "real" counterpart is a good solution (e.g. a Mace of Disruption +4 which protects from level drain is already available in game).

 

Regarding domain spells, it's very unlikely that I'm going to give up on them. They are the foundations of PnP clerics within Forgotten Realms lore (at least before the crappy 4th edition ), and they are a distinctive mark of their specialization (e.g. Morninglords who doesn't memorize spells from the Sun domain are not Morninglords imo).

 

 

Now that we've set the bonus traits for each kit, let's discuss what kind of limitations we need to implement :

- Alignment restrictions for each kit

- Other limitations ( )

Alignment restrictions are already listed, but I'll never list them as a disadvantage, as they aren't a disadvantage at all. Making a Blood Raged Berserker kit more powerful than a Berserker and saying that its disadvantage over the latter is that the former must be evil doesn't make any sense, does it?

 

Disadvantages/Hindrances may be:

- armor restrictions (Stormlords may be limited to medium armors, Nightcloaks to light armors, ...)

- weapon restrictions (well, this makes sense only if the true cleric isn't already heavily restricted)

- cannot turn undead

 

I don't see many other ways to limit a cleric right now. Well there's the sphere system, but without adding a gazillions of new spells (and I'm not going to do it) the sphere system would reduce some kits to have a ridiculously limited spell selection.

[Aranthys]

Here's some additional suggestions for Battleguard of tempus and Nightcloak of shar cleric kits :

 

Battleguard of Tempus :

 

Abilities :

- Can gain Battle gift of Tempus once a day every 4 levels. For one turn the user gains the TACO of a warrior of the same level.

- Can cast the "Axe of Tempus" spirit weapon once a day every 5 levels. Lasts 2 turns.

 

The weapon grants the following abilities, depending on caster level :

Level 1-6 : +1 weapon / +1 attack per round / User can't cast spells / User is immune to fear

Level 7-12 : +2 weapon / +1 attack per round / User can't cast spells / User is immune to fear/confusion

Level 12-18 : +3 weapon / +1 attack per round / User can't cast spells / User is immune to fear/confusion/stun

Level 19+ : +4 weapon / +1 attack per round / User can't cast spells / User is immune to fear/confusion/stun and deals maximum damage with each attack

 

Restrictions :

- Alignment must be Chaotic evil / Chaotic neutral / Chaotic good / True neutral

- Cannot use missile weapons

 

Nightcloak of Shar :

 

Abilities :

- Immune to blindness / charm / confusion

- Can summon a shadow once a day every five level. The shadow lasts 2 turn.

 

Level 1-7 : Lower shadow

Level 5

Hp : 30

TACO 16

AC : 2

Backstab Multiplier : x2

Weapon is considered magical

Invisibility 2/day

 

At level 8-16 : Shadow

Level 10

Hp : 60

TACO : 11

AC : 0

Backstab Multiplier : x3

Weapon is considered +1

Invisibility 2/day

 

At level 17+ : Greater Shadow

Level 15

Hp : 80

TACO : 6

AC : 0

Backstab Multiplier : x4

Weapon is considered +2

Can only be hit with magical weapons

Permanent improved invisibility

Invisibility 2/day

 

- Can cast the "'Disc of Night" spiritual weapon once a day every 5 level, lasts 2 turns.

Disc of night is a returning dart.

 

The weapon grants the following abilities, depending on caster level :

Level 1-6 : +1 weapon / Enemy must save vs spells at +4 or be blinded for 1 round

Level 7-12 : +2 weapon / Enemy must save vs spells at +2 or be blinded for 1 round

Level 12-18 : +3 weapon / Enemy must save vs Spells or be blinded for 1 round

Level 19+ : +4 weapon / Enemy must save vs Spells at -2 or be blinded for 1 round

 

Restrictions :

- Alignment must one of : Loyal evil / Neutral evil / Chaotic evil / True neutral

- May only wear light armors

- Cannot use medium or large shields

[Aranthys]

Regarding domain spells, it's very unlikely that I'm going to give up on them. They are the foundations of PnP clerics within Forgotten Realms lore (at least before the crappy 4th edition ), and they are a distinctive mark of their specialization (e.g. Morninglords who doesn't memorize spells from the Sun domain are not Morninglords imo).

Well, honestly, i would prefer you to give them the possibility to memorize existing mage spells depending on the kit rather than 7 innate abilities, kinda like an avenger can.

[yarpen]

With exception of custom shadow creature which should be standarised to this from game - I like Aranthys's ideas! Especially special weapon features - they're cool, and there was a lack of it in Divine Remixes. As Kossuth's cleric you got uber-flail but it doesn't even deal fire damage.

 

And as I said earlier, there could be 3 templates of clerics - maybe we should discuss them.

 

Damn, I think that I'll have to work on mine Cleric's Improvement called Faiths and Pantheons. As wrote in SR's original thread it based on Holy Symbols. It was easy and pretty efficent system, there was only one problem with BAMs.

[Demivrgvs]

Regarding domain spells, it's very unlikely that I'm going to give up on them. They are the foundations of PnP clerics within Forgotten Realms lore (at least before the crappy 4th edition ), and they are a distinctive mark of their specialization (e.g. Morninglords who doesn't memorize spells from the Sun domain are not Morninglords imo).

Well, honestly, i would prefer you to give them the possibility to memorize existing mage spells depending on the kit rather than 7 innate abilities, kinda like an avenger can.

Having domain spells memorizeable like Avenger's ones would be bad for many reasons:

- it would be a plain advantage instead of a semi advantage, and semi disadvantage

- you may end up with a cleric who doesn't memorize his domain spells (from a roleplaying point of view this is the worst thing ever imo)

- you may end up with a cleric who memorize too many domain spells (e.g. I can easily imagine Stormlords memorizing tons of Chain Lightnings)

- I would have to find a spell at each spell level which isn't already available to the cleric (else we would have inconsistencies)

 

I do know that adding domain spells a la Avenger would be much more convenient, but I've never considered convenience as the ruling parameter.

 

 

With exception of custom shadow creature which should be standarised to this from game - I like Aranthys's ideas! Especially special weapon features - they're cool, and there was a lack of it in Divine Remixes. As Kossuth's cleric you got uber-flail but it doesn't even deal fire damage.

Divine Remixe didn't assigned fire damage to the flail not because the modders were lazy, but because spiritual weapons in PnP work just like they did. Spiritual Weapons (like Spiritual Hammer within SR) are evocation spells, whereas what you're suggesting seems more like a conjuration/alteration spell. Not to mention DR's spiritual weapons can easily be a 2nd level spell, whereas the above descripted Axe of Tempus goes up to a total enhancement bonus of +8/+9, making it shine even if compared to a Black Blade of Disaster!

 

That being said, don't misunderstand me, I like the idea of making spiritual weapons more "customized" based on the cleric's deity.

 

P.S Regarding Nightcloak's shadows (Minion of Shar ability in PnP) they should be much more similar to in-game shadows yes, thus no backstab (not to mention x4 multiplier and 15th level sounds as uberly overpowered to my PnP ears! ).

 

And as I said earlier, there could be 3 templates of clerics - maybe we should discuss them.

I don't have much time for this right now, but I'd be happy if you (players) discuss it yourselves. I'll step in asap.

 

Damn, I think that I'll have to work on mine Cleric's Improvement called Faiths and Pantheons.

That manual is my first source material for this matter.

[yarpen]

That's why I think that deity weapons don't need to have uber-powered magic enhancement - but stress should be pressed on these special, unique qualities. It's hard to say about Andyr, CamDawg and NightMARE to be lazy - I think that in this matter, there could be a bit of improvement from PnP which isn't always the best solution.

[Aranthys]

Regarding domain spells, it's very unlikely that I'm going to give up on them. They are the foundations of PnP clerics within Forgotten Realms lore (at least before the crappy 4th edition ), and they are a distinctive mark of their specialization (e.g. Morninglords who doesn't memorize spells from the Sun domain are not Morninglords imo).

Well, honestly, i would prefer you to give them the possibility to memorize existing mage spells depending on the kit rather than 7 innate abilities, kinda like an avenger can.

Having domain spells memorizeable like Avenger's ones would be bad for many reasons:

- it would be a plain advantage instead of a semi advantage, and semi disadvantage

- you may end up with a cleric who doesn't memorize his domain spells (from a roleplaying point of view this is the worst thing ever imo)

- you may end up with a cleric who memorize too many domain spells (e.g. I can easily imagine Stormlords memorizing tons of Chain Lightnings)

- I would have to find a spell at each spell level which isn't already available to the cleric (else we would have inconsistencies)

 

I do know that adding domain spells a la Avenger would be much more convenient, but I've never considered convenience as the ruling parameter.

 

 

With exception of custom shadow creature which should be standarised to this from game - I like Aranthys's ideas! Especially special weapon features - they're cool, and there was a lack of it in Divine Remixes. As Kossuth's cleric you got uber-flail but it doesn't even deal fire damage.

Divine Remixe didn't assigned fire damage to the flail not because the modders were lazy, but because spiritual weapons in PnP work just like they did. Spiritual Weapons (like Spiritual Hammer within SR) are evocation spells, whereas what you're suggesting seems more like a conjuration/alteration spell. Not to mention DR's spiritual weapons can easily be a 2nd level spell, whereas the above descripted Axe of Tempus goes up to a total enhancement bonus of +8/+9, making it shine even if compared to a Black Blade of Disaster!

 

That being said, don't misunderstand me, I like the idea of making spiritual weapons more "customized" based on the cleric's deity.

 

P.S Regarding Nightcloak's shadows (Minion of Shar ability in PnP) they should be much more similar to in-game shadows yes, thus no backstab (not to mention x4 multiplier and 15th level sounds as uberly overpowered to my PnP ears! ).

 

And as I said earlier, there could be 3 templates of clerics - maybe we should discuss them.

I don't have much time for this right now, but I'd be happy if you (players) discuss it yourselves. I'll step in asap.

 

Damn, I think that I'll have to work on mine Cleric's Improvement called Faiths and Pantheons.

That manual is my first source material for this matter.

Erm.

The proposed axe of Tempus is powerful indeed, but has a huge limitation :

You can't cast spells while it's active, turning your priest into a warrior.

 

At high level, it's a +4 weapon that gives one attack per turn & a few immunities. I really don't see this weapon as a +8/+9 one due to this limitation.

 

Theres usually two things people don't like about Divine Remixe

1 - Some of the kits don't have enough spells

2 - All of the kits are following the same template, lacking unique flavor.

 

That's why I really don't think having domain spells be forced on players is the best way to handle this.

When I was talking about providing clerics with domain spells they could memorize, I wasn't thinking "All kits should have 7 new spells, one per level"

but :

"Some of theses kits could be granted the advantage of beeing able to memorize a few mage / druid spells that flavors their deity"

 

There's a lack of damaging offensive spells for clerics, so I'm really sure that if you could provide priests of Talos with additional offensive spells, people would use them... otherwise, what's the point of using a kitted cleric in the first place ?

[Demivrgvs]

Theres usually two things people don't like about Divine Remixe

1 - Some of the kits don't have enough spells

2 - All of the kits are following the same template, lacking unique flavor.

 

That's why I really don't think having domain spells be forced on players is the best way to handle this.

1 - I'm not going to remove any spell from them, instead I'm allowing them to cast spells which aren't normally available to true clerics

2 - if you compare my suggested domain spell list for Morninglords and Stormlords you can easily see that the domains actually add unique flavor to each kit.

 

There's a lack of damaging offensive spells for clerics, so I'm really sure that if you could provide priests of Talos with additional offensive spells, people would use them... otherwise, what's the point of using a kitted cleric in the first place?

Because for example a true cleric compared to a Stormlord isn't able to cast things such as Chaos or Chain Lightning, can't charge his weapons with electrical damage, and isn't naturally resistant to electricity.

[Ardanis]

what's the point of using a kitted cleric in the first place?

Btw, can there exist a godless cleric in the first place? IIRC there were no generic paladins, monks and priests in iwd2, only ones devoted to a certain order/deity. So perhaps excluding the unkitted priest from the available for selection list will in fact only prove fitting in the class' concept.

[Demivrgvs]

Btw, can there exist a godless cleric in the first place? IIRC there were no generic paladins, monks and priests in iwd2, only ones devoted to a certain order/deity. So perhaps excluding the unkitted priest from the available for selection list will in fact only prove fitting in the class' concept.

Within Forgotten Realms lore there couldn't be an "unkitted" cleric. An "unkitted" cleric in PnP is a cleric who belives in an ideal instead of an actual god, but within FR clerics can cast spells only because their respective deity "allow" them to, grantig the priest divine spells as long as the follower behaves in the interest of his deity. IWD handled this in a much better way yes, but we can't remove the true cleric from BG.

[Aranthys]

1 - I'm not going to remove any spell from them, instead I'm allowing them to cast spells which aren't normally available to true clerics

2 - if you compare my suggested domain spell list for Morninglords and Stormlords you can easily see that the domains actually add unique flavor to each kit.

 

There's a lack of damaging offensive spells for clerics, so I'm really sure that if you could provide priests of Talos with additional offensive spells, people would use them... otherwise, what's the point of using a kitted cleric in the first place?

Because for example a true cleric compared to a Stormlord isn't able to cast things such as Chaos or Chain Lightning, can't charge his weapons with electrical damage, and isn't naturally resistant to electricity.

1 - I know, i was just pointing it

2 - I also know. But having a kit only beeing about "He has 1 spell at each level" lacks flavor in my eyes. About the Talos, your cleric of talos will only be able to use 1 Chain Lightning, instead of 3-4.

 

Look at the Bioware kits for all classes but Priests to see why some kits are nice, and why some arent : Kits must give you another way to play a character.

I think there's something that all kits must have, the spirit weapon.

 

But i'm really not fond of giving all kits one specific spell per level as a domain spell, it's too much standardization for my tastes I guess.

I prefer them to differ by their abilities and spells, rather than just spells.