Clerics (outdated concept)

[SixOfSpades]

I've just wanted to say that kitless Priest isn't a cleric of nothing. He's just a sort of generalist . . . He can choose his destiny on his own.

Wait--by "a sort of generalist" do you mean he does not pray to any specific god? I can understand a Priest venerating a small number of separate deities, provided that those deities are closely allied and don't mind "sharing" the Cleric, but from my way of thinking, that's about as nonspecific as it should be able to get. I don't know what canon lore on this subject is, but I find the idea of a "Priest of Religion" who aims his vaguely-worded worship somewhere in the general direction of the Weave to be extremely lame.

 

(not real kits, but just edited Usability Flags) would be really welcome.

The mage-type could just use few weapons and armor, but have more spells, the warrior-type could have more weapons skills and better proficiency allocation and not so many spells, while the Priest-type is the normal Kit. So the 2 specializations can be acquired during the game at the start or near it.

Cold, hard lessons of Kit mechanics: Item usabilities/restrictions, maximum settings for weapon proficiencies, and separate kits are all applied at the exact same time. You cannot have any of the three without the other two. Now, I have it on good authority that changing from one kit to another (or your default Class) in the middle of a game is quite possible, so theoretically we could make a "base" Priest of Helm kit, and then upon being prompted by the player, switch him over to the "Scholar" Priest of of Helm kit with tighter item restrictions, or to the "Battlepriest" Priest of Helm kit with increased weapon proficiencies. But as this would require making 3 separate kits for every faith, not to mention perform a trick that nobody has ever done before, I think it's very safe to say that we will NOT be doing this anytime soon.

 

 

I also have to kill the idea of "regular" Clerics not being able to wear Plate armors. Yeah, I can see the appeal of most Clerics wearing Chain/Splint, with only Battlepriests getting all decked out in Full Plate. But if trueclass, unkitted Clerics can't wear Plate, then no Clerics can wear Plate, including Dual-Classed Fighter->Clerics, Multiclassed Ranger/Clerics, and, yes, Battlepriests.

With that said, the notion that "All Clerics can use pointy weapons now, but no Clerics can wear Plate armors" to be an interesting one, and possibly worth the tradeoff. But I doubt players will find it appealing, not least because it goes against canon lore and directly against what the game's been like so far.

[Ardanis]

But if trueclass, unkitted Clerics can't wear Plate, then no Clerics can wear Plate, including Dual-Classed Fighter->Clerics, Multiclassed Ranger/Clerics, and, yes, Battlepriests.

Actually, you can have a kit to use items forbidden to trueclass.

[SixOfSpades]

Actually, you can have a kit to use items forbidden to trueclass.

Are you speaking of the base "Cleric" flag or the 0x4000 Trueclass flag? If the latter, that's asking for a great deal of trouble, as it's my understanding that 0x4000 is the flag for everybody without a kit--meaning that Plate armors would be off-limits not only to pure Clerics, but also pureclass Fighters, Paladins and Rangers, as well as (most) Dual- and Multi-classed Warriors and Clerics.

[Ardanis]

You're correct again.

The solution can be to create a twin kit (not that i like them though, as I recall having glitches related) or to use 'Can't use item [180]'. None of which looks much appealing.

[SixOfSpades]

The solution can be to create a twin kit (not that i like them though, as I recall having glitches related) or to use 'Can't use item [180]'. None of which looks much appealing.

Yeah. We may eventually end up going one of these routes, but let's not plan on having Kit Revisions go there just yet, at least not while we can use much more workable methods to make Cleric kits that are just as diverse & playable.

 

If I burst anybody's bubble back there, just remember that if I seem to know whereof I speak about kits, it's usually because of some neat trick that I attempted . . . and failed miserably. So think of my lessons as trial-and-error that YOU don't have to sit through.

[Guest Guest]

I would go with the 2nd choice on Talos for Call Lightening. It would make sense that a priest praying to the God of storms would be able to get him to call down lightening from its natural source.

[yarpen]

Demi, I'm sorry for that what I'm doing, but I think that my idea was a part of this discussion, so I can do such a bad thing!

Here you can find discussion about my revision of clerics/deities system which removes vanilla cleric kits and instead of them adds cleric-templates such as Crusader, Mystic and Speciality Priest (who kicked Pilgrim's ass); which also allows you to select your deity by obtaining Holy Symbol at the beginning of game. There's a lack of good brainstorming which doesn't allow me to make any progress in mod - so Demi, could you lend me your great audience-flaming team for a moment?

[Demivrgvs]

Demi, I'm sorry for that what I'm doing, but I think that my idea was a part of this discussion, so I can do such a bad thing!

Here you can find discussion about my revision of clerics/deities system which removes vanilla cleric kits and instead of them adds cleric-templates such as Crusader, Mystic and Speciality Priest (who kicked Pilgrim's ass); which also allows you to select your deity by obtaining Holy Symbol at the beginning of game. There's a lack of good brainstorming which doesn't allow me to make any progress in mod - so Demi, could you lend me your great audience-flaming team for a moment?

I'll try to find some time to look more closely your discussion and contribute, but judging from the first look I'd say you're doing more or less what we discussed here with your idea about holy symbols, which isn't bad at all.

 

The only thing I may complain about is that your 'Specialty Priests' are actually my proposed kits for KR, but I'm not a gelous modder, feel free to use my ideas as they actually are ours ideas once they are discussed here.

 

P.S And if you finish those 'specialty priest' before mine for KR I'm sure you'll let me stole that part of your work!

[yarpen]

The only thing I may complain about is that your 'Specialty Priests' are actually my proposed kits for KR, but I'm not a gelous modder, feel free to use my ideas as they actually are ours ideas once they are discussed here.

Sorry Demi, but Your kits for KR are actually DR's kits which are actually fine interpretation of AD&D cleric Speciality Priest kits D:

[Demivrgvs]

The only thing I may complain about is that your 'Specialty Priests' are actually my proposed kits for KR, but I'm not a gelous modder, feel free to use my ideas as they actually are ours ideas once they are discussed here.

Sorry Demi, but Your kits for KR are actually DR's kits which are actually fine interpretation of AD&D cleric Speciality Priest kits

Eh eh, actually I'm not following AD&D but Faiths&Pantheons which is 3rd edition. The way I'm going to handle spiritual weapons is probably much more similar to what you're currently suggesting for your mod, I'm not using DR's sphere system at all, and the various suggested avantages/disadvantages (e.g. armor and weapon restrictions) are actually come out from discussions between me and players like you, not from PnP nor from DR.

 

P.S I just noticed the first post in not up to date at all...

[yarpen]

Uhm, understood. Still, it's very similiar to one of the version of Specialty Clerics from AD&D. As an example I'm bringing Dawnbringer of Lathander

 

Morninglords turn undead creatures at four levels higher than their listed level if the undead is affected by direct sunlight. Intelligent undead such as vampires know about Lathanderian specialty priests and either avoid direct conflict or act to remove the threat they pose as quickly as possible.

Morninglords are able to create light (as the 1st-level priest spell) three times a day.

At 3rd level, morninglords are able to cast faerie fire (as the 1st-level priest spell) once per day.

At 5th level, morninglords are able to cast sunrise (as the 3rd-level priest spell) once a day.

At 7th level, morninglords are able to cast boon of Lathander (as the 4th-level priest spell) once a day.

At 9th level, morninglords are able to cast false dawn (as the 6th-level priest spell) once a day.

Morninglords gain a +2 base bonus when using the appraising, artistic ability, carpentry, cooking, juggling, leatherworking, musical instrument, or pottery nonweapon proficiencies. Additional nonweapon proficiency slots devoted to these proficiencies increase the proficiency score normally.

Morninglords convey a +10% bonus to the resurrection survival check of any being upon which they cast raise dead or resurrection. (The resurrection survival score cannot, however, exceed 99%.)

As you can see, it's quitie similiar - my interpretation of these powers is maybe much closer to older versions of DR kits (where they have got also 1-3 level spells). And I'm rarely using unique abilities, maybe that's what I should improve

[Demivrgvs]

Uhm, understood. Still, it's very similiar to one of the version of Specialty Clerics from AD&D. As an example I'm bringing Dawnbringer of Lathander...

Cool, I was so close to AD&D without having the source material! I'm a genius!! Anyway...let's not spam this topic on this "it was mine idea, not yours, not PnP" discussion, I don't think it matters much and I only care for the BG community to enjoy good mods.

[yarpen]

Right sir. Hey, when I'm developing this mod I'm using changes from Spell Revision - I think it's going to be required to install it.

[Dermit]

Personally I wish Bioware had gone with something like Yarpen's cleric idea from the start. Just the three pretty much cover all cleric types, and have a much more 2nd. Ed "Kit" feel than specialty priests (inevitably people want all deities covered). I know the boats sailed on this one, but I can't help but feel that it would have been better to start from square one on cleric kit design.

[Grammarsalad]

Because you're not thinking about enough already!

 

Apologies for not following the direction of this thread beyond the first reply!

 

When create these 3 archetypes you can cover most of deities. Battlepriest model looks fine for Iyachtu Xwim, Tempus, Torm, Tyr, Corellon Larethian etc. Pilgrim model for Selune, Lathander etc. etc. and Scholar model for example for Mystra, Eldath - and that's how is it going. And these limitations allows to grant some additional deity powers. Cleric of Kossuth without fire resistance isn't Cleric of Kossuth

 

Personally I was working on other type of cleric revision. Instead of "devoted to" kits I've planned to create these three kits: Crusader/Battlepriest, Pilgrim and Scholar. And they could choose their deity by obtaining holy symbol of god. Which after 1st use is impossible to wear down, with exception of 6th level magic. And these magic symbols were giving to character some minor bonuses, and allowed them to cast spells or turn undead. It also worked with Divine Remixes system sphere: holy symbol granted to you one/two additional spheres - and one of most important kits attributes were these spheres. But huh, I'm capable only of planning.

 

I saw this suggestion a looooong time ago. I thought it was a BRILLIANT idea! I was extremely dissapointed that this project was dropped. I'm just going to throw it out there again on the chance that it will get a bite. So, to reiterate:

 

- Cleric kits become actual kits rather than specialty priests: Battlepriests, pilgrims and scholars (or something).

- Deity selection by a dialogue that checks for alignment and kit (thereby) giving an appropriate selection of deities for the cleric to choose as a single use special. Once a deity is selected, the cleric gets a holy symbol of said deity granting some minor special abilities (I believe that the symbol was planned to be unremovable but the details can be whatever is best).

 

(Please note that I only barely know what I'm talking about regarding the details of deity selection. I'm thinking of something similar to atweaks scribe scroll where the special summons an invisible creature that checks for certain spells and gold and gives certain options. I hope it's clear what I mean.)

 

(A simpler idea--something that I think even I could do!--for deity selection would be a single use modification of the create magical weapon spell but using deity icons and names instead. It wouldn't be able to discriminate and would give odd selections like Cyric for a lawful good cleric and Tempus for a scholar...heh, the only advantage would be that it would be much easier. Actually, I'm not sure that it would be easier. It would be easier for me! )

 

Anyway, I only have so many conceptions of a priest of Talos, Lathander or Helm but I have TONS of ideas for battlepriests, scholars/priests and/or others. Even with only a few deity options--which could be added to later--would truly expand one's options.

 

I know there is more to it than this--I'm thinking specifically about the cleric stronghold stuff--but there is already some weirdness there like a lawful evil ally of Talos or a chaotic neutral Helmite.

 

Anyway, something like this would be a huge improvement IMO.