Clerics (outdated concept)

[Demivrgvs]

I saw this suggestion a looooong time ago. I thought it was a BRILLIANT idea! I was extremely dissapointed that this project was dropped. I'm just going to throw it out there again on the chance that it will get a bite. So, to reiterate:

 

- Cleric kits become actual kits rather than specialty priests: Battlepriests, pilgrims and scholars (or something).

- Deity selection by a dialogue that checks for alignment and kit (thereby) giving an appropriate selection of deities

I kinda like the idea, especially considering vanilla's cleric kits aren't real kits. A "Priest of Lathander" should just be an unkitted cleric who worship Lathander. The only difference between priests of different deities within AD&D were the assigned spheres of influence (aka the limited known spells repertoire Divine Remix mod implemented - or what more recent versions called domain spells). The original game design was really misleading, because it confused "Priests of Lathander" with "Morninglords of Lathander", but the latters are Lathander's most elite priests, not your standard/common Lathander's priest.

 

That being said, I fear that in terms of implementation the change would be too heavy. Overall it's just easier to automatically assign one of those "templates" to each kit according to the global kit design imo (e.g. Morninglords are battlepriests, Lorekeepers are "scholars"), not to mention that many variant templates can already be achieved by multi or dual classing (e.g. a "battlepriest" is a fighter/cleric --> aka Anomen already is a perfect battlepriest of Helm) and/or roleplaying (e.g. roleplaying-wise Viconia is a sort of "parvenu" in terms of worshipping Shar, she cannot really be Nightcloak imo, but make her a thief/cleric, use the right equipment/spells, and you'll have a perfect roguish priest of Shar).

[Grammarsalad]

I see your point but if (eg) you want to be a good cleric that is a little different than the trueclass you Have to be a priest of lathander. Evil? Talos. Chaotic neutral? Helm. It's a straitjacket. Kits are meant to add diversity. it would be cool, imo, to be able to pick a"cloister", say, that focuses on casting but neglects armour and weapons or a "champion" that isn't much against undead and lacks some casting or spells but is a little more martial than the standard issue.

 

Also the second leg of this idea--deity selection--would economize cleric kit selection (and for modders) creation. Adding a deity wouldn't have to clutter up the kit selection screen leaving room for more unique and creative options

 

Also, the exact details can change..

[Jarno Mikkola]

would economize cleric kit selection (and for modders) creation. Adding a deity wouldn't have to clutter up the kit selection screen leaving room for more unique and creative options

With ToBEx you can have as many kits as you wish... ~250 at least per class...

[Ardanis]

NWN2 features Doomguide, Stormlord and Warpriest prestige classes. Imo we could do the same, i.e. keep a couple of generic kits and few devoted to a particular deity.

[Grammarsalad]

NWN2 features Doomguide, Stormlord and Warpriest prestige classes. Imo we could do the same, i.e. keep a couple of generic kits and few devoted to a particular deity.

 

I'm not against it. I think an advantage of my suggestion over this approach is that, because deity selection is standardized, kits then become standardized (and closer to their pnp roots). Also, it would minimize "my character separation" for those that became attached to their favorite watcher or morninglord (eg, we used those as kits). they keep an association with their deity and still receive unique abilities from that association.

 

(heh, my degree is in psychology)

[Ardanis]

What would you guys say, if I were to inform you that we actually can in a feasible way re-create spontaneous conversion in BG2?

 

PS And by "feasible" I mean exactly that, i.e. 100% accurate and non-involving individual spell patching or scripting.

[Demivrgvs]

What would you guys say, if I were to inform you that we actually can in a feasible way re-create spontaneous conversion in BG2?

 

PS And by "feasible" I mean exactly that, i.e. 100% accurate and non-involving individual spell patching or scripting.

I guess with something different from opcode 244 because it doesn't let us pick the correct spell level...what am I missing?

 

I'm not a big fan of spontaneous conversion (it makes memorizing healing spells pointless - to the point where they might as well not be in the spellbook) but I'm curious.

[Ardanis]

A spell being cast can be interrupted with 146/0/0 from the casting features block. All that remains is to disable it by default (146a/206b + 146b shell) and make work on demand (206a), and enable the latter via activating Convert Spell innate.

 

What good can come out of it, is that priests won't be forced to stuff their slots with healing spells in the beginning. Memorizing healing spells is still useful for combat situations, but after the battle you'll have have time to convert unused spells into healing.

[Demivrgvs]

A spell being cast can be interrupted with 146/0/0 from the casting features block. All that remains is to disable it by default (146a/206b + 146b shell) and make work on demand (206a), and enable the latter via activating Convert Spell innate.

Overcomplicated imo, but interesting.

 

What good can come out of it, is that priests won't be forced to stuff their slots with healing spells in the beginning. Memorizing healing spells is still useful for combat situations, but after the battle you'll have have time to convert unused spells into healing.

Point taken, but...

 

I still prefer healing spells to remain something you have to memorize to benefit from them. I like to be forced to decide between more healing spells or more offensive spells and buffs. Spontaneous casting remove this tactical choice imo, and...

 

Didn't we (I mean you and me because the clerics I described in this topic are tremendously outdated) kinda agreed about implementing D&D Next's Channel Divinity (aka a more customizable version of Pathfinder's Channel Positive/Negative Energy). That will greatly improve cleric's healing capacity, especially at low levels imo.

[Ardanis]

I still prefer healing spells to remain something you have to memorize to benefit from them. I like to be forced to decide between more healing spells or more offensive spells and buffs. Spontaneous casting remove this tactical choice imo, and...

I forgot to mention that converted spells should probably be a bit less effective than full-fledged Cure/Cause Wounds. E.g. at -5 caster level penalty, or something.

 

Didn't we (I mean you and me because the clerics I described in this topic are tremendously outdated) kinda agreed about implementing D&D Next's Channel Divinity (aka a more customizable version of Pathfinder's Channel Positive/Negative Energy). That will greatly improve cleric's healing capacity, especially at low levels imo.

Well, truth be told, I'd have preferred conversion to CD, if I knew back then it could be done. Even so, I guess CD will serve more like domain slot or wizard's contingency/sequencer innates.

There was never a choice for me what to fill Viconia's slots with in my last BGT run.

[Grammarsalad]

What would you guys say, if I were to inform you that we actually can in a feasible way re-create spontaneous conversion in BG2?

 

PS And by "feasible" I mean exactly that, i.e. 100% accurate and non-involving individual spell patching or scripting.

 

I personally love the idea!

[Jarno Mikkola]

I still prefer healing spells to remain something you have to memorize to benefit from them. I like to be forced to decide between more healing spells or more offensive spells and buffs. Spontaneous casting remove this tactical choice imo, and...

I forgot to mention that converted spells should probably be a bit less effective than full-fledged Cure/Cause Wounds. E.g. at -5 caster level penalty, or something.

Or you could make this an independent component and let the player decide. Casting level penalty or casting time penalty, no penalty... the like.

[Grammarsalad]

I still prefer healing spells to remain something you have to memorize to benefit from them. I like to be forced to decide between more healing spells or more offensive spells and buffs. Spontaneous casting remove this tactical choice imo, and...

I forgot to mention that converted spells should probably be a bit less effective than full-fledged Cure/Cause Wounds. E.g. at -5 caster level penalty, or something.

Or you could make this an independent component and let the player decide. Casting level penalty or casting time penalty, no penalty... the like.

 

Choice ids good!

 

[Ogi]

I'm also for first tackling bards problems. I just wonder about cleric because you will need change a lot of things if you don't want 20+ kits for this class.

[yarpen]

For Cleric? If Demi wouldn't be afraid of shaking things up:

- True Cleric

- Crusader (can summon god's weapon which gives him some of it's god's powers, same ThaC0 as Warrior's and additional attack per round).

- Mystic (can cast arcane spells from schools of Divination and Charm. Can only use items usable by mages)

- Specialist Priest (unique for every chosen deity).

 

BG:EE would probably allow you to implement the choose deity screen. In worst case, it could be possible to just use items to let you choose your deity.

 

 

CRUSADER

 

 

Sphere Access:

Limited as Hell (as in PnP)

 

Advantages:

- Once per day per 4 levels can summon Spiritual Weapon.

- At level 7 gains additional half of attack per round when using Spiritual Weapon. This bonus increases to full attack per round at level 15.

 

Disadvantages:

- When using Spiritual Weapon, Crusader cannot cast spells.

- Cannot Turn Undead.

 

Spiritual Weapon: Spiritual Weapon lasts for 1 round per level. It's enchantment level and proficiency of Crusader is reliant on his level. When using it, Crusader's ThaC0 is changed to ThaC0 of Fighter at his level.

 

Level Enchantment Proficiency

1 +1 Proficiency (+)

6 +2 Specialization (++)

11 +3 Mastery (+++)

16 +4 High Mastery (++++)

 

Crusader doesn't get additional attacks per rounds from his Proficiency.