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Ninja-to


Jarno Mikkola

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Edit from Demi: I've moved here this discussion because I want the main one on V3 changes to be readable and not a wall of text.

 

Removing Ninja-tos

Wow, I never expected such an easy consensus.

Well, it's foreseeable if you really think about it, as they are both still "Scimitars", essentially. Or you could go and call them backswords/sabres, if you take the western naming approach. Yes, the Scimitar is actually Southwest Asia (Middle East) name for a backsword.
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Removing Ninja-tos

Wow, I never expected such an easy consensus.
Well, it's foreseeable if you really think about it, as they are both still "Scimitars", essentially. Or you could go and call them backswords/sabres, if you take the western naming approach. Yes, the Scimitar is actually Southwest Asia (Middle East) name for a backsword.
Ninja-to has nothing in common with the scimitar, the former is a short thin piercing blade, the latter is curved slashing blade which really cannot be used as a piercing weapon. Scimitars belong to the middle east, ninja-to to the extreme orient, Japan. ;)
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Ninja-to has nothing in common with the scimitar, the former is a short thin piercing blade, the latter is curved slashing blade which really cannot be used as a piercing weapon. Scimitars belong to the middle east, ninja-to to the extreme orient, Japan. ;)
Yeah, it might have not, because:
There are some registers that say that the ninjatō unlike the katana and wakizashi was actually just a stabbing weapon and not a cutting one. It is not known whether the ninjatō had a kissaki (sword tip) or not.

...

Due to the fact that the 'ninjato' probably did not historically exist, there are differing schools of thought on how best to use such a sword.

And in the game it's defined as:

ninja-toplus1.jpg A slashing type damage producer.

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Due to the fact that the 'ninjato' probably did not historically exist...
Jarno I really don't get you...
Yeah, you probably didn't read the whole quote... just the pieces that you liked. ;) Well, that's really not my opinion, but still... funny.

Because if the ninjato doesn't exist, everything that says on how it was used is, and is not- accurate at the same time and still the truth. But if we then check what that weapon is in the game concept, we can find out that the ninjato is not a piercing damage producer as it's classified as:

A slashing type damage producer.
And if we look on how that impacts the game, as more of the high end AC is vs. Slashing at least on the humans, not Piercing damage type...

The same kinda arguments can be made from the proper usage of the Two Handed Sword, it can be used as a metal spear, which when it produces damage, it's piercing damage, or you could use the thing as a metal hammer, it's heavy enough with the blunt side for that, but still the game has it on the Slashing damage, so it's slashing weapon.

 

You get me now?

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You get me now?
No.

 

Due to the fact that the 'ninjato' probably did not historically exist...
Jarno I really don't get you...
Yeah, you probably didn't read the whole quote... just the pieces that you liked. ;) Well, that's really not my opinion, but still... funny.
Not funny, and not true.

 

Because if the ninjato doesn't exist, everything that says on how it was used is, and is not- accurate at the same time and still the truth.
That's quite a wrong statement. Once you describe the weapon (historical or not) you have to be consistent with whatever you described. In this case a STABBING SHORT BLADE used by ninjas (aka oriental assassins).

 

But if we then check what that weapon is in the game concept, we can find out that the ninjato is not a piercing damage producer as it's classified as a slashing type damage producer.
Wow, what a valid point. So, if BG "concept" used slashing damage for hammers you'd be fine with that too.

 

The same kinda arguments can be made from the proper usage of the Two Handed Sword, it can be used as a metal spear, which when it produces damage, it's piercing damage, or you could use the thing as a metal hammer, it's heavy enough with the blunt side for that, but still the game has it on the Slashing damage, so it's slashing weapon.
A greatsword as metal hammer? ;) If you want to imagine few unique fantasy swords like that fine, but I can assure you greatswords used like that wouldn't even scratch a plate armor.
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The same kinda arguments can be made from the proper usage of the Two Handed Sword, it can be used as a metal spear, which when it produces damage, it's piercing damage, or you could use the thing as a metal hammer, it's heavy enough with the blunt side for that, but still the game has it on the Slashing damage, so it's slashing weapon.

Yeah, we can probably make that. Dealing 1d4 piercing damage with terrible, terrible speed and negating proficiency in 2H swords, and dealing 1d2 non-lethal damage. But for what? ^^ Halberds have this dual-weapon system because that's a sort of their nature, they were connection between spear and axe so they deserve to have advantages of both of those weapons (great damage or armor piercing). Instead of 2H swords, Long Swords would be a better candidate for such a thing. And they look to thin for me, to deal serious slashing damage. Well... when I'm going to get new system and all graphical tools installed, I'm gonna try to fix some stuff about BG2 graphics.

 

Ninja-to is short enough to always say that it deals piercing damages. 'Piercing damage' doesn't mean thrusting always, it's more of a type of wound. Those usually are not too large but deep (where slashing ones covers lot of body but are shallow and damage comes from external bleeding). Because BG2 is a sort of tabletop cRPG we can easily assume that it works like that.

 

And Jarno, don't you agree that everything about Ninja-To sucks? As much as BG2's Splint Mail which should be changed into Scale Mail (AC 6)

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Because if the ninjato doesn't exist, everything that says on how it was used is, and is not- accurate at the same time and still the truth.
That's quite a wrong statement. Once you describe the weapon (historical or not) you have to be consistent with whatever you described. In this case a STABBING SHORT BLADE used by ninjas (aka oriental assassins).
But the whole argument in this is that: Was it actually ever said that the weapon actually has a "kissaki" aka sword tip that can be used for stabbing, and the Wikipedia says that as the weapon has never actyually existed... then no you cannot say weather or not it had one and thus you cannot say how it was used. Now, as the game one is used as a slashing weapon, then it's a slashing weapon, not STABBING SHORT BLADE ! So to be consistent with the concept of the game, the weapon is a slahing weapon, and has always been one, in this game...

 

So, if BG "concept" used slashing damage for hammers you'd be fine with that too.
Well, the warhammers have five faces(usable sides that can be used for hitting)... if one of them is a puncturing one like in the BG1 normal warhammer, and the games animations and rules would use that, then I can accept the war hammer as stabbing weapon/piercing damage producer, yes. Hammer doesn't have a slashing facet, but the axe has, so if the game is made by reasonable people, they would rename the hammer 'you made' as an axe. Or Sword-Hammer.... *other triviling thoughs of emptiness*.

 

A greatsword as metal hammer? ;) If you want to imagine few unique fantasy swords like that fine, but I can assure you greatswords used like that wouldn't even scratch a plate armor.
The weapons can be used in many ways, one is to dent the armors enough to make it impossible for the wearer/"prisoner inside it" to even breath. Yes, unless metal armor is specially treated, it dents guite easily, and if it's specially threated with that in mind, it's easy to brake, at least the kinda metals that are used in the pre-industrial perioids, or when there is an 'iron' shortage in the region.

 

Ninja-to is short enough to always say that it deals piercing damages. 'Piercing damage' doesn't mean thrusting always, it's more of a type of wound. Those usually are not too large but deep (where slashing ones covers lot of body but are shallow and damage comes from external bleeding). Because BG2 is a sort of tabletop cRPG we can easily assume that it works like that.
The oriental weapon makers didn't make that many official stabbing weapons, as they weren't actually paid to make them to fight so many metal armored opponents, in 1 vs. 1, but 1000 vs. 1000's where bows, spears etc. arch-type weapons are more effective. Or if you made a weapon like that, the oriental "king" hired a thug to kill you, cause your actions threatened his power.

 

And Jarno, don't you agree that everything about Ninja-To sucks?
Well, yeah, as there is no definite Ninja-To'es in this world, it's kinda pointless to have it in the fantasy world, if it's too much of a trouble, and this would be the definition of that.

 

As much as BG2's Splint Mail which should be changed into Scale Mail (AC 6)
Or Half Plate... anyone is free to use any name they wish to, and if you find a use for more than one, go a head, just make the cathegory somewhat clear and to be consistent...
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Well, the warhammers have five faces(usable sides that can be used for hitting)... if one of them is a puncturing one like in the BG1 normal warhammer, and the games animations and rules would use that, then I can accept the war hammer as stabbing weapon/piercing damage producer

There is another weapon called 'Pick', which IMO should be introduced because it's heavy piercing weapon. Currently there's none in BG2.

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