Equalize Bears

[Guest Robocasper]

Heyya,

 

Just a quick idea for an improved challenge; when looking at the bears, you'll notice the black/brown bears have lower hit points and weapon damage*, but these two bears actually pack an almost equal punch due to their strength being 18/00 and having more constitution. In order to make the bears a more proper challenge, the cave/mountain/polar bears should have the same stats as the black/brown bears. I always mod this "fix", so I figured SCS could do this too. There are a few other sets of creatures that do this as well such as the wolves.

 

*Many hand weapons use the strength bonus...and assuming it works!

[Dakk]

So bears other than the "friendly" bears - black and brown - actually have lower STR than those two? That's unbearable.

 

 

 

 

 

.. my apologies.

[Guest Robocasper]

Yes, the black/brown bear are beefy compared to the other 3.

 

Quick run down: Bear, THAC0, HP, Attacks, STR, CON, Weapon:

Black, 25, 17, 3, 18/00, 18, 1d6

Brown, 41, 15, 3, 18/00, 18, 1d8

Cave, 50, 13, 3, 16, 9, 1d10

Mountain/Polar, 66, 11, 3, 16, 9, 1d12

 

As you can see - the black/brown bears STR/CON helps boost them closer to the more powerful bears. One option is to equalize by lowering the black/brown bears STR/CON, but for SCS -- you'd want to go the opposite direction

[Guest Robocasper]

Yes, the black/brown bear are beefy compared to the other 3.

 

Quick run down: Bear, THAC0, HP, Attacks, STR, CON, Weapon:

Black, 25, 17, 3, 18/00, 18, 1d6

Brown, 41, 15, 3, 18/00, 18, 1d8

Cave, 50, 13, 3, 16, 9, 1d10

Mountain/Polar, 66, 11, 3, 16, 9, 1d12

 

As you can see - the black/brown bears STR/CON helps boost them closer to the more powerful bears. One option is to equalize by lowering the black/brown bears STR/CON, but for SCS -- you'd want to go the opposite direction

 

Oops...bad being a guest, make that:

Quick run down: Bear, HP, THAC0, Attacks, STR, CON, Weapon:

[polytope]

As you can see - the black/brown bears STR/CON helps boost them closer to the more powerful bears. One option is to equalize by lowering the black/brown bears STR/CON, but for SCS -- you'd want to go the opposite direction

Constitution doesn't actually matter for bears, the game only applies constitution bonuses to creatures with a character class.

 

I'd vote 18 strength for the black bear, 18/51 for brown, 18/00 for cave, and 19 str for polar bear/mountain bear. The polar bear is the world's largest land carnivore - it stands to reason it should be stronger than the other bears. 2ed MM entries don't usually specify stuff like strength, but high level campaigns gives tables for aproximating creature ability scores.

[Guest erikt]

As you can see - the black/brown bears STR/CON helps boost them closer to the more powerful bears. One option is to equalize by lowering the black/brown bears STR/CON, but for SCS -- you'd want to go the opposite direction

Constitution doesn't actually matter for bears, the game only applies constitution bonuses to creatures with a character class.

 

I'd vote 18 strength for the black bear, 18/51 for brown, 18/00 for cave, and 19 str for polar bear/mountain bear. The polar bear is the world's largest land carnivore - it stands to reason it should be stronger than the other bears. 2ed MM entries don't usually specify stuff like strength, but high level campaigns gives tables for aproximating creature ability scores.

 

Remember that druids can change shape into brown bears and black bears and when shapechanged get at least some of the stats of the creature they are changed into. My guess is that the high STR and CON scores of brown and black bears are because of this.

 

As for the relative strenghts of the various bear types I will note that while the polar bear may be the largest land carnivore the (omnivorous) Kodiak bear (a subspecies of brown bear) is just as large and presumably just as strong as the polar bear. The same goes for the (nowadays extinct) cave bear.

[Dakk]

I'd vote 18 strength for the black bear, 18/51 for brown, 18/00 for cave, and 19 str for polar bear/mountain bear.

I'd side with that.

[Guest Robocasper]

I play EasyTutu, so the "_" creatures are not used for shapechange, but BGT folk might have to copy creatures to be used for spells so we can mod the basic creatures to our liking : )

 

The THAC0 and weapon damage are generally set to AD&D 2nd edition for BG1 with adjustments for the engine and fun-factor. The THAC0 is controlled on the creature and damage by weapon. However, by adding equal strength to all, this will keep the bears evenly going up in power by these two controls.

 

I set my creatures like this:

 

dogs - STR 16

wolves - STR 18 (this is why the basic wolf is a challenge compared to a dog (and their HP) - so only fair for the dog to get a +1 damage bump)

bears - STR 18/50

 

This way, there is still a bit of a boost over the base THAC0/weapon, but not by so much an 18/00 gives! I prefer to reserve the 18/00 for BOSS bears {as it were}.

[Dakk]

bears - STR 18/50

 

This way, there is still a bit of a boost over the base THAC0/weapon, but not by so much an 18/00 gives! I prefer to reserve the 18/00 for BOSS bears {as it were}.

Remember that 18/00 is the maximum strength of a human being (albeit a VERY strong human being). And as far as CRPG goes, a STR 18/50 Fighter is not that impressive. Compare this to the following quotes:

Bears possess enormous strength, regardless of species or size. The strength of a bear is difficult to measure, but observations of bears moving rocks, carrying animal carcasses, removing large logs from the side of a cabin, and digging cavernous holes are all indicative of enormous power. No animal of equal size is as powerful. A bear may kill a moose, elk, or deer by a single blow to the neck with a powerful foreleg, then lift the carcass in its mouth and carry it for great distances.

 

"The strength . . . is in keeping with his size," describes Ben East in Bears. "He is a very powerfully built, a heavy skeleton overlaid with thick layers of muscle as strong as rawhide rope. He can hook his long, grizzly-like front claws under a slab of rock that three grown men could not lift, and flip it over almost effortlessly...." "... a brown [bear] ... took a thousand-pound steer a half mile up an almost vertical mountain, much of the way through alder tangles with trunks three or four inches thick."

 

Strength and power are not only the attributes of large bears but also of the young. The author observed a yearling American black bear, while searching for insects, turn over a flat-shaped rock (between 310 and 325 pounds [140 - 147 kilograms]) "backhanded" with a single foreleg. The bear was captured the following day in a management action and weighed 120 pounds.

Source: http://www.bowhunting.net/bearhunting.net/...2.html#strength

 

"Our conclusion was a grizzly bear is equal to 2.5 to 5 humans in strength. I'm certain if a bear were enraged it would be much, much higher," Cairns said. "We never did get them ticked off. We didn't want to."

Source: http://www.montana.edu/cpa/news/nwview.php?article=3827

[Guest Robocasper]

I did some numbers...perhaps 18/00 and 19 are better after all when compared to a level 1 fighter with a 18/00 strength and two stars. I first bring the bears up to 2E rules -- this gives them the correct weapons [slash] plus a 10% chance for a "hug" [crushing]. It also boosts HP slightly for each.

 

18/50 Bears vs. 18/00 level 1 Human Fighter (using a Long Sword with two stars):

Note: in brackets [] would be 18/00 for Black/Brown/Cave and 19 for Mountain/Polar

 

L1 Human Fighter (2 stars):

THAC0: 20 - 3 - 1 = 16

Damage: 1d8 + 6 + 2 = 9-16

 

Black Bear:

THAC0: 17 - 1 = 16 [14]

Damage: 1d6 + 3 = 4-9 [7-12] + {2d4 hug} = 6-17 [9-20]

 

Brown Bear:

THAC0: 15 - 1 = 14 [12]

Damage: 1d8 + 3 = 4-11 [7-14] + {2d6 hug} = 6-23 [9-26]

 

Cave Bear (I think the game uses 1-10, but it should be 1-12):

THAC0: 13 - 1 = 12 [10]

Damage: 1d12 + 3 = 4-15 [7-18] + {2d8 hug} = 6-31 [9-34]

 

Mountain/Polar Bear:

THAC0: 11 - 1 = 10 [8]

Damage: 2d6 + 3 = 5-15 [9-19] + {3d6 hug} = 8-33 [12-37]

 

Sooo...18/00 for Black/Brown/Cave and a 19 for the Mountain/Polar bears it is! Uhh...don't get hugged by my polar bear...looks painful.