An Honest Bard

[ZenSojourner]

I've been trying very hard to turn Imoen into an HONEST bard rather than a slimy little backstabbing thief (no offense, thief lovers!) via EE Keeper and either EE Keeper can't modify thief abilities and/or the game overwrites all attempts to modify those stats. In any case I have been assured that there is no way to keep Imoen on the straight and narrow via EE Keeper.

 

Then I was told it was an impossible mod as well, as "thief abilities are hard coded in the game and cannot be modified".

 

But I don't think that's totally correct, given the vast changes "Song and Silence" makes to various thief classes. Assuming thief abilities CAN be modified by a kit, here's what I've been thinking, in a disorganized sort of a way.

 

In looking that over there is one class/kit that very nearly meets my idea of the honest bard - Chorister bard kit, which gives a 50% nerf to pickpocketing.

 

That's awful close, only my idea of the Honest Bard would allow for trap/illusion detection and set traps; don't care about hiding skills; and I want the actual thievery skills as nerfed as possible. So if my informant is right and you can't add abilities to the bard class (eg they can ONLY pickpocket and no mod can change that) then this would have to be some subset of the thief class instead.

 

I'd like to see one or two "innate abilities" such as protection from evil (defensive) or "goodberries" if that can be set up as an innate ability (its actually a L2 cleric spell) - weakish spells that shouldn't be too overpowering but make up for the lousy way bardsong was implemented. Maybe a minor healing as an innate ability if goodberries can't be done this way.

 

The honest bard would have the "jester" type of bard song, since he or she will be prohibited from using any offensive spells. It's sort of "attacky" rather than supportive. If it's even possible to add bardsong to a thief without losing everything but pickpocketing (the on thief ability I'm dead set AGAINST the honest bard having, LOL!)

 

This guy will only be lousy in melee, might be awesome in ranged weapons (eventually), won't ever be effective at actual stealing, will have good illusion/trap detection skills, good trap setting skills, and moderate hiding skills, if there's any real reason for a non-backstabbing not-a-thief to need them.

 

ADVANTAGES:

 

Allow grand mastery in one type of bow, slings, or darts

 

Bonus to setting/finding traps and illusions

 

Allow some kind of armor, elven chain or similar to be worn when casting; allow ankheg armor to be worn when casting if its possible to do that.

 

Buffs to one or two of the non-thieving thief skills (such as detect/set traps, etc).

 

DISADVANTAGES:

 

All armor (except ankheg armor and elven chain) above a certain level is disallowed, probably it should stop at chain mail or thereabouts.

 

May not use any type of shield

 

Any spells allowed should be mostly defensive in nature, or passively offensive (such as the bard song for the joker class that saps the will of unfriendlies). I don't know which spells specifically, but I'm not looking for a full-mage or cleric type kit for this; whatever spells are allowed should be limited in scope. That means no spirit weapons (if of a clericly bent) or no magic missiles or other offensive spells (if of a wizzardly bent).

 

Pick pocketing nerfed into the ground

 

Pick locks severely nerfed (it's stealling, honest bards don't thieve)

 

NO backstab

 

Limit to ONE pip proficiency in a melee weapon

 

I'm not sure what else. I'm not looking for a super-fighter or anything more than moderate level spells very limited in nature; this class/kit will preferentially fight at long range and will be at disadvantage in melee. They should act primarily in a supportive capacity and with cunning/tactical considerations rather than by brute force. This is not a melee fighter.

 

Strength - 8 or 10 (whatever is required to be able to use all crossbows)

Dexterity - should be high as this class/kit will be relying mostly on ranged weapons

CON - should be high just on general principle but as this is not a fighter, no need to exceed 15 or so

INT/WIS - neither of these need to be high IF charisma can be used to buff them (see CHA below) for spell-casting/learning purposes.

CHARISMA - this OUGHT to count for something for a bard (or bard-like thief) but doesn't in the regular game dynamics - could it instead be used to give a buff to INT/WIS so that for spell casting/learning purposes the limited spell sets allowed are actually controlled by charisma? So actual WIS/INT could be low, but if CHA is high then that value gets used for INT/WIS. Given that all offensive spells are forbidden to this class/kit hopefully that isn't too overpowering and would let the honest bard cast any defensive spell from either class.

 

Oh, and I would like to see lore as for the normal bard, eg 10 per level, with ONE buff to lore based on CHA instead of INT/WIS, as for normal bards, only based on CHA (instead of the two buffs, one each for high WIS and INT, just the one based on CHA).

 

Is any of this even REMOTELY possible? Especially when we add in a requirement that it has to work with BG:EE?

 

If it is possible, could it be done with a new Bard kit or would it have to be a new thief kit? Or (worst of all) an entirely new class?

 

Actually I guess "worst of all" would be "All portions of the above are impossible. Now go away!"

 

I don't want much. Just basically an entirely new class, LOL!

[Jarno Mikkola]

1) Allow grand mastery in one type of bow, slings, or darts

2)Bonus to setting/finding traps and illusions

3)Allow some kind of armor, elven chain or similar to be worn when casting; allow ankheg armor to be worn when casting if its possible to do that.

4)Buffs to one or two of the non-thieving thief skills (such as detect/set traps, etc).

...

5)All armor (except ankheg armor and elven chain) above a certain level is disallowed, probably it should stop at chain mail or thereabouts.

6)May not use any type of shield

7)Any spells allowed should be mostly defensive in nature, or passively offensive (such as the bard song for the joker class that saps the will of unfriendlies). I don't know which spells specifically, but I'm not looking for a full-mage or cleric type kit for this; whatever spells are allowed should be limited in scope. That means no spirit weapons (if of a clericly bent) or no magic missiles or other offensive spells (if of a wizzardly bent).

8)Pick pocketing nerfed into the ground

9)Pick locks severely nerfed (it's stealling, honest bards don't thieve)

10)NO backstab

11)Limit to ONE pip proficiency in a melee weapon

12)Rest....

12. The BGEE is not a hard thing to do, as the weidu installer can install to BG:EE if it's the newest moddle.

1. For a thief, the extra proficiency spots won't give the extra attacks per round, so you are stuck with the 1... erhm, so the 5 max pips is not that good, but it's doable.

2. Well the bonus comes if you choose the other than the thieving skills... so why not let the player deside and that's that.

3. Non leather armors for thief... Why not just get it over with and give it a +5 Full Plate armor at the char creation ?

4. look at answer 2.

5. Look up the answer 3.

6. Look at the answer 3. Yey, Tower shield for thieves! Erhm. NO.

7. Bonus spells as inates are always the butter of the kit, and easy to do actually... can be done by me if you wish. Ouh, and the coding and so forth as long as you get all the other stuff sorted out first.

8. Look at answer 2.

9. -//-

10. That's easy, You just don't give the kit the vanilla backstab multipliers.

11. Easy.

[ZenSojourner]

(bunch of stuff)

 

I've been looking at this some more and I don't see why I can't do this based off the Bard class instead of the Thief class. In fact all I should have to do is modify SKILLBRD.2da and the weapprof.2da files (I think, I've got copies of the appropriate files exported out of NI to look over)

 

Bard class is NOT hard coded after all, at least not in its entirety.

 

But I'm not sure what you're saying in some of this so let me go through:

 

Your points:

 

1) For a thief, the extra proficiency spots won't give the extra attacks per round, so you are stuck with the 1... erhm, so the 5 max pips is not that good, but it's doable.

 

You're saying this is something hard coded, that the proficiencies are checked against class? But if I change the proficiency allowances in WEAPPROF.2da, won't it go by the new values there? EG I change the JESTER proficiencies to allow 5 for bows but leave all the rest at 1 (basic proficiency), you're saying the core code will ignore what's set in WEAPPROF.2da?

 

2. Well the bonus comes if you choose the other than the thieving skills... so why not let the player deside and that's that.

 

I don't understand? The whole point of the class (or kit rather) is that this is an HONEST bard. He/she doesn't steal. They don't pick people's pockets and they don't break into locked chests and cabinets. If people want to play a thief then they can play a thief and not an honest bard, so nerfing those skills for an HONEST BARD in no way stops people from choosing those skills in an appropriate class. Those skills are NOT appropriate for an HONEST BARD though, so no, I'm not inclined to allow "the player to decide and that's that".

 

This is not a thief. This is an HONEST BARD - with no pickpocketing, but who is allowed to find and disarm traps.

 

3. Non leather armors for thief... Why not just get it over with and give it a +5 Full Plate armor at the char creation ?

 

Your sarcasm is misplaced. Bards - not thieves, BARDS - are allowed all armor. By limiting their armor in any way I am REDUCING their current capabilities, not providing an illegal buff.

 

I think you're confused because I was thinking I would have to base this kit off the THIEF class, but it's really a BARD kit, not a thief kit.I was only looking at basing it off a thief class because I had been told it was impossible to base it off the bard class. But it was never supposed to be an actual thief, that should have been clear from the reiteration that thieving skills are not part of this kit.

 

Anyway, at this point, after digging around in the files, I don't see why I can't base this off the BARD class after all, because it sure doesn't look hard-coded to me.

 

So. BARD, not thief. And Bards are allowed ALL armor. Your point 5 is misplaced for the same reason (same point actually)

 

As for 4, I want the non-thieving rogue skills applied to the HONEST BARD to increase with level, just as they do in the default Bard class for pickpocketing. I want pickpocketing and lock picking nerfed as far as possible, all the way to 0 if at all possible for this kit, but the other skills to be enabled for progression as normal. So "letting people choose" again doesn't apply - especially since, really, this is a kit I want to develop for myself. The problem is enabling that JUST for this kit, and not for all bards, since the only place I've found that handles this is SKILLBRD.2da, which applies to ALL bards. I can't find where they apply the SKALD and BLADE penalties to pickpocketing so I can't tell yet if I can coopt the same method to nerf thieving totally for HONEST BARDS and also to allow the other non-thieving rogue skills to just the new kit, or to modify the jester kit to allow that without unlocking it for all the other bards.

 

Again. This is a NON-THIEVING rogue, not a thief. Even if I did, by some miracle, manage to pull this off as a totally new kit - if you don't want to play a NON-THIEVING rogue, the solution to that is not to CHOOSE a non-thieving rogue, not to let people choose thieving options.

 

point 6 - again your sarcasm is badly misplaced. Bards are allowed to use shields. By NOT allowing my HONEST BARD to use a shield, he is being put at a disadvantage compared to any other Bard kit. Besides, I said I DON'T want the class to be allowed to use shields. So if I don't want them to use shields, and YOU don't think they should use shields, I fail to see why you are upset and waxing sarcastic over a point upon which we agree.

 

point 7 has nothing to do with innate abilities. I'm talking about actual spells that use the spell books. I'm not sure how to implement that as I only want specific spells allowed - I haven't found the stuff in the .2da files that handles this, but it must be there because there are 9 different flavors of mage, which can only cast spells from particular "schools" of magic. Depending on how that is implemented (how they limit which spells particular types of mages can cast), I may be able to coopt that mechanism for HONEST BARDS - or I may have to do it some other, really complicated and possibly convoluted way. I don't want to overpower this kit, I want some very definite limits on spellcasting. This character is NOT a primary spellcaster; they haven't invested that kind of time. They just have some defensive skills that are spell-based, they're not full-blown magic users. If somebody wants that they can dual class a regular bard.

 

Part of this issue is the whole idea of basing bards defensive spell-casting abilities off of CHARISMA instead of INT or WIS. Again, that may be a can of worms I shouldn't open - I don't know yet. I need to see more about how spells are already implemented and controlled.

 

Point 8 is more of the same - there is absolutely no reason to "allow people to choose" thieving skills for a NON-THIEVING rogue. That's the whole point of the kit - this character DOES NOT STEAL. Period paragraph.

 

your point 9 - I have no idea what -//- means. I assume you're indulging in more sarcasm over the issue of nerfed thieving skills.

 

However - NON-THIEVING ROGUE. OK? So remember - NON-THIEVING rogue. Not a thief. Whether or not it ends up based off the thief class or the bard class (and the latter looks to be far more likely now that I've started ripping into the actual files involved) it's still not a thief. It's a NON-THIEVING ROGUE. That means NO STEALING. If you want to steal, go play a vanilla thief, but for my purposes, for this kit - there are NO THIEVING skills allowed.

 

Moving on. You say:

 

10. That's easy, You just don't give the kit the vanilla backstab multipliers.

 

It may very well be easy, but I don't know where the backstabbing is handled in the files yet. Implementing it probably IS easy - what's hard is finding where that is handled. I'd be happy to hear from you where to change backstabbing, since it's so easy for you I presume you know where that is. Then it'll be easy for me, too!

 

Again you say (re limiting to one pip in all weapons other than bows)

 

11. Easy.

 

That's true, and it's even easy for me because I already found where that is handled and it involves NO CHANGES to those weapons in the WEAPPROF.2da file. So easy-peasy, I already know how to do that!

 

If you have any information about the files I need to find and understand, feel free to lay it on me.

 

But the whole no-thieving skills is not negotiable - it's the whole point of the kit, LOL!

[Jarno Mikkola]

1) For a thief, the extra proficiency spots won't give the extra attacks per round, so you are stuck with the 1... erhm, so the 5 max pips is not that good, but it's doable.

You're saying this is something hard coded, that the proficiencies are checked against class? But if I change the proficiency allowances in WEAPPROF.2da, won't it go by the new values there? EG I change the JESTER proficiencies to allow 5 for bows but leave all the rest at 1 (basic proficiency), you're saying the core code will ignore what's set in WEAPPROF.2da?

I see you haven't come accross the warrior class domination, well, look at the wspatck.2da file, you'll see what's up with the attacks per round thing in relation to warrior classes, and why the proficiency points won't help. Now there's a way to go around this and it involves installing the ToBEx or a small library version of it... but that's a bit of more than a normal kit mod does.

 

2. Well you can't make the bard unlock the chest, find and remove traps etc. it's hard coded as far as I know. So even if you add things to the bard tables etc, there's no way to utilize the abilities.

 

Bards - not thieves, BARDS - are allowed all armor. By limiting their armor in any way I am REDUCING their current capabilities, not providing an illegal buff.

Erhm, nope, a bard can use chain armors... not plate mails nor scale/splint mails... So you are there to not limiting it but expanding it, as the original ankheg plate armor is actually a plate mail(at least in stat -vise). This goes to the shields as well.. they can't even use the small shields, which only leaves them with bucklers. This is normally, we can adjust all this, but it's better to leave those changes to more item based mods, like for example the Item Revision etc.

 

10. Well, if you go to the kit ability.2da's... in the actual games they are clabth01.2da, clabth02.2da, clabth03.2da, you notice that there's one spell that increases the characters backstab multiplier in the levels they gain the multiplier... well except the thief that doesn't have the multiplier.

Erhm, you have read the making a kit tutorial series 1-4, correct ?

[ZenSojourner]

(YOU):

1) For a thief, the extra proficiency spots won't give the extra attacks per round, so you are stuck with the 1... erhm, so the 5 max pips is not that good, but it's doable.

 

(ME):

You're saying this is something hard coded, that the proficiencies are checked against class? But if I change the proficiency allowances in WEAPPROF.2da, won't it go by the new values there? EG I change the JESTER proficiencies to allow 5 for bows but leave all the rest at 1 (basic proficiency), you're saying the core code will ignore what's set in WEAPPROF.2da?

 

(YOU):

I see you haven't come accross the warrior class domination, well, look at the wspatck.2da file, you'll see what's up with the attacks per round thing in relation to warrior classes, and why the proficiency points won't help. Now there's a way to go around this and it involves installing the ToBEx or a small library version of it... but that's a bit of more than a normal kit mod does.

 

And yet - Coran has 3 pips in Bows, which he normally wouldn't have, and which work for him.

 

Regardless, NOW I've seen the WSPATCK.2da file and I have to say, that's clear as mud. There is no indication of what it does, it's just a table of numbers for "something" by level for 5 different unidentified categories. Care to enlighten me?

 

Actually the best thing would be a list of .2da files as comprehensive as possible that explains what each one does, as much as possible. Does such a thing exist?

 

2. Well you can't make the bard unlock the chest, find and remove traps etc. it's hard coded as far as I know. So even if you add things to the bard tables etc, there's no way to utilize the abilities.

 

I don't think that's the case but of course can't prove that yet. I think this can be done.

 

I've been pointed elsewhere at IEDSP and spell effects, which I am told can be used to modify skills. I'll have to look that over and see what help is to be had there - but frankly, even if you are 100% correct and bards can't be modified to have any of the rest of the rogue skills enabled (and I think that's not true either, because they can be added to SKILLBRD.2da, which would add them for ALL bards and which would require me to go nerf them out for everybody but Jesters), thieves already have them - so the solution in that case (assuming there is no other solution, which has yet to be established) would be to revert to the idea of basing this off the thief class and then nerfing out the actual thief skills. In that case I would of course have to generate an entirely new kit rather than just modifying the entire JESTER kit, but it's still doable.

 

 

ME: Bards - not thieves, BARDS - are allowed all armor. By limiting their armor in any way I am REDUCING their current capabilities, not providing an illegal buff.

 

YOU: Erhm, nope, a bard can use chain armors... not plate mails nor scale/splint mails... So you are there to not limiting it but expanding it, as the original ankheg plate armor is actually a plate mail(at least in stat -vise). This goes to the shields as well.. they can't even use the small shields, which only leaves them with bucklers. This is normally, we can adjust all this, but it's better to leave those changes to more item based mods, like for example the Item Revision etc.

 

OK, apparently my brain was nerfed on the issue of the armor. I swear I read that somewhere - and even double checked it before my last response - but I sure can't find it now. Of course I have since closed the 50+ tabs I had open at the time and rebooted so whatever that reference is it's for all intents and purposes lost - and immaterial, since if I DID read it somewhere, it's obviously wrong because I just went and checked in the actual create character thingy in BGEE and sure enough it clearly states no armor above chain, which is fine because that pretty much aligns with my intention. And losing ankheg armor is no biggie since there are only 2 (that I know of) in the game anyway. So it's all good, since the actual armor limit (chain) matches up with what I was thinking (chain).

 

As for the shield - a buckler IS a shield. I know, I know, they differentiate it from the other shields, but it's still a thing you hold in one hand while you hold a weapon in the other. I'm saying my HONEST BARD can't even use that. I will let them dual-wield knives though, if they want to invest a pip in dual-wielding. I've actually about decided to remove even basic proficiency in everything except daggers, shortswords, slings, bows, and staves, so I may even spot them that pip at character creation, in addition to the 2 unassigned pips they get.

 

10. Well, if you go to the kit ability.2da's... in the actual games they are clabth01.2da, clabth02.2da, clabth03.2da, you notice that there's one spell that increases the characters backstab multiplier in the levels they gain the multiplier... well except the thief that doesn't have the multiplier.

 

All well and good - except the CLAB files for bards are BA01, BA02, BA03, and BA04 for vanilla bard, BLADE, JESTER, and SKALD respectively. Apparently the entries in those CLAB files are nothing for vanilla, enabling the offensive and defensive spin for the BLADE, and enabling the JESTER and SKALD specific bard song for those kits, plus for the SKALD the extra damage modifiers. Apparently these are all done via .SPL files. I haven't dug into that yet.

 

Erhm, you have read the making a kit tutorial series 1-4, correct ?

 

Oh yes, but I quit at the WeiDU part because I didn't know if there was an EE capable version of WeiDU, so it seemed rather a waste to go through that section if I couldn't use WeiDU. Also that tutorial was written NINE YEARS ago and is listed on the Gibberlings mod tutorials list as being out of date for current coding practices/requirements - so I suspect it is of limited usefulness and I have no way to identify the portions that no longer apply.

 

Now that I know where to get a beta version of WeiDU I'll go ahead and look the last section of that tutorial over, but the MOST helpful thing at this point would be if I could find as comprehensive as possible a list of the BG files I'm having to deal with, what they do, and how they interact.

 

For instance, knowing that the WSPATCK.2da file is involved in this somehow doesn't help because there is no clue inside the file itself as to what that table is controlling or modifying, or to whom it applies (or doesn't apply). Things like that need to be known before deciding what can and cannot be done.

 

Thanks for the pointers.

[Jarno Mikkola]

Actually the best thing would be a list of .2da files as comprehensive as possible that explains what each one does, as much as possible. Does such a thing exist?

 

... and ...

 

I've been pointed elsewhere at IEDSP and ....

Ouh yes, and you dare to ask... hi hihihi, just kidding, a bit. And yes, the explanations are fine in that file. Should have linked, my bad.

See, that's where I actually looked at the .2da files all the time, see I don't have the game installed.

[ZenSojourner]

Actually the best thing would be a list of .2da files as comprehensive as possible that explains what each one does, as much as possible. Does such a thing exist?

 

... and ...

 

I've been pointed elsewhere at IEDSP and ....

Ouh yes, and you dare to ask... hi hihihi, just kidding, a bit. And yes, the explanations are fine in that file. Should have linked, my bad.

See, that's where I actually looked at the .2da files all the time, see I don't have the game installed.

 

Yeah, I just got back from dipping into IEDSP - hadn't done it yet when I was responding to your e-mail. Give me a break - I was up at 4 am my time, I hadn't had time to do more than read the responses to the other 2 postings I did yesterday.

 

You should be flattered - I answered YOU first, LOL!

 

It still hasn't helped a lot because looking at the IEDSP entry for WSPATCK.2da tells me what the numbers mean, but not what the 5 categories are or to whom those are applied. So there's still a bit of confusion there. There are more than 5 basic classes so it can't be that.

 

Let's see, let me list them (sort of virtually thinking out loud)

 

Warriors

• Fighters
  
• Paladins
  
• Rangers
  
• Barbarians
  

Rogues

• Thieves
  
• Bards
  

Magic Users

 

.................

 

DOOP! Never mind. I'm guessing that the 5 numbered categories refer to the OVERCLASSES, of which there are, in fact, just 5

 

Warriors

Rogues

Magic Users

Clerics

Monks

 

Is that right? though there's still some confusion about which overclass corresponds to which numbered category (for me at least)

 

Regardless of whether or not that's a true lightbulb moment, I'm off to make bacon, hashbrowns and cookies. Must stoke the furnace, it's moving day. Well, more like moving week, but nonetheless ....

[Jarno Mikkola]

5 numbered categories...

They are the proficiency level of the warrior character. Zero means no points, 1 means one star... etc the 5 means the Grand Mastery / 5 stars in the proficiency in question.

The warriors are, Fighter single/multi/dual classes, Barbarian(actually a fighter kit), Paladins, Rangers(and multi/duals) & their kits. That's it.

[Mike1072]

Erhm, you have read the making a kit tutorial series 1-4, correct ?

 

Oh yes, but I quit at the WeiDU part because I didn't know if there was an EE capable version of WeiDU, so it seemed rather a waste to go through that section if I couldn't use WeiDU. Also that tutorial was written NINE YEARS ago and is listed on the Gibberlings mod tutorials list as being out of date for current coding practices/requirements - so I suspect it is of limited usefulness and I have no way to identify the portions that no longer apply.

Where does it say that tutorial is out of date?

[Jarno Mikkola]

Where does it say that tutorial is out of date?

It might be the SHS listing that says this tutorial is out of date that misled the Zen to believe... but the above is NOT.

Too many open windows/tabs I would assume. Yeah, I know that it can be difficult and that's why I was kidding above... don't take my responces too seriously or you'll be a fooled to think I am serious all the time. And I rarely use the smiles ...