Dispel/Remove topic (continued from SCS forum)

[kreso]

Posted here not to spam SCS forums with this kind of c*ap.

I've done some testing about making Dispel Screen AoE and being removable by Dispel/Remove.

Original caster doesn't suffer this drawback (Remove is fully ineffective vs his own protection, as in original). Everyone else protected by the screen gets his protection removed by any kind of dispel. The DS version used on allies doesn't stop Breach, unlike it's base version. Should it? It's easy enough to do...

Looks cute, haven't tested it in practice.

Behold (don't mind Illasera and the non-portraited mage, ctrl+Qed for testing):

 

DS affects everyone near caster:

 

Original caster (named fdfd) casts Dispel Magic.Any and all buffs will stay, but Dispelling Screen is gone on both via custom sec type use. Cool stuff....

 

Again, toughts? Too broken? AI would (I think the pro I used should affect enemies in the same way...) use the same version, provided this is installed prior to SCS (can be made to work even after but I'm lazy).

 

 

 

 

[cipher]

It should be tested to be sure. In theory it's hard to classify if it's broken or not.

 

A few preliminary thoughts:

- it should not stack, in case of multi mage parties

- caster should not be affected to avoid double dip

- don't think it should protect against breach

 

Will it protect against dispelling weapons too, even for just a hit? I would count that as a plus, since the AI will benefit quite a bit.

[kreso]

@kreso: About Breach power, I was thinking the obvious solution of removing buffs of up to a certain level. Then let Pierce Shield do the rest.

Causes AI problems. AI removes Apsolute immunity/Mantle etc. with it.

 

Also there's the SR Fireshield treatment. Maybe certain buffs could be taken out of the list and they wouldn't affect balance much.

Breach is used by AI to counter numerous things. Stoneskin, Chaotic Command, Pro Magic Energy etc. It's easy enough to make all these "combat protections" and make Breach remove only those, but explaining this within spell description is another matter....(why should Pro Magic energy be removed while Pro Fire not - just an example but you see the point.)

 

 

As for AoE Dispel Screen, it does sounds interesting. If I got your description right it works like an AoE centered on the caster where on him it works on full power (SRv4) and to all the rest as a one time protection.

Yes.

 

Dispel bombs is not a rare sight in SCS. Many demons have it at will (aTweaks only?).

SCS ones also dispel with a timer (I think the exact numers are in SCS readme). Melisan also does that.

 

It sounds a bit OP on theory, but it might not be.

I don't know. I'd probably make it so that the one affected by it can't be affected by it more than once per hour or similar. You'd survive the initial dispel attempt (or Breach, I'd probably vote Breach is included in protection, likewise; it would also remove the "fake" screen just like Dispels). All further attempts couldn't be blocked for balance sake.

 

A couple of things:

- I suppose having the real DS would make you immune to the fake to avoid unexpected behaviour.

Yes, already included. Seems irrelevant however...

 

- Why would you need to patch spell removals to take in to account the fake DS? It only protects against RM and nothing else. Breach, RRoR etc would work normally, right?

I shouldn't, but my fingers can be faster than my brain...Yes, all work normally. One SR spell I should patch however, Spell Thrust, since it has an AoE.

AI won't use other spells vs it (it won't even use ST, but someone might get in AoE)...the only problem is if player wants to remove this buff from an enemy cleric or fighter with a spell removal. Not the best of choices, but still.

- Is one of the DS you mention Detectable Spells or Dispel Screen exclusively?

One is Detectable Spells.

 

PS If at some point you feel like posting the problems you had with aTweaks & Revisions (& SCS?) I would love to know. I thought they were working quite decently together.

 

They work well together, but I'm kind of a sucker for consistency. aTweaks demons simply (imo) don't "fit in" with SR philosophy. aTweaks is about PnP; SR is about balance. For example, I feel as if PnP Elementals are utterly broken, SR versions are not as "cool" but are much more balanced overall.

Scripts need to be changed to take into account some SR specific stuff (like PW:Stun being Enchantment in SR; where aTweaks check for SI:Conj and similar, some checks are item-based where IR items don't have the relevant immunites anymore etc. - for an average player this probably won't mean squat however, nor will the faults be noticed.)

 

 

 

It should be tested to be sure. In theory it's hard to classify if it's broken or not.

Can't say. My toughts would be something like "One can now charge in with all party clunked together, eat a Remove and live. If there is more than one enemy mage, you're just as screwed as before".

 

 

 

- it should not stack, in case of multi mage parties

It doesn't. I should probably make Dispel Screen remove the "fake" Dispel Screen if it's active....

Just tested it, seems irrelevant. It can't stack in either case, and "fake" one is instantly removed even if "real" one is active.

 

 

- don't think it should protect against breach

I think it should, since Breach is stupid . And original Dispel Screen does.

 

 

Will it protect against dispelling weapons too, even for just a hit? I would count that as a plus, since the AI will benefit quite a bit.

For now, it fully blocks dispelling weapon properties, just like DScreen. Carsomyr/Dispel Arrows and similar is rendered fully innefective.

[subtledoctor]

Breach is used by AI to counter numerous things. Stoneskin, Chaotic Command, Pro Magic Energy etc. It's easy enough to make all these "combat protections" and make Breach remove only those, but explaining this within spell description is another matter....(why should Pro Magic energy be removed while Pro Fire not - just an example but you see the point.)

Wha?? I didn't realize that. Seems to me the point of Breach should be to allow someone to be damaged, who is protected. So it should remove stuff like Stoneskin, Shield, Pro Energy and Pro Fire etc... but not stuff like Chaotic Commands or Bless or Remove Fear. Again I suggest:

- Spell Protections --> countered by Pierce Magic

- Combat/Damage Protections --> countered by Breach

- Illusions --> countered by Dispel Illusion/Oracle/True Sight

- Curses etc --> countered by Break Enchantment

- General buffs --> countered by Dispel Magic

 

Easy enough to code, and easy enough for players to understand without combing through the spell descriptions.

[toxin]

Breach also removes Death Ward, Free Action, Protection from Fear, Chaotic Commands, all energy protections (fire/magic...) etc. Every spell that has sec type SPECIFICPROTECTIONS or COMBATPROTECTIONS. That is, a lot! @kreso: About Breach power, I was thinking the obvious solution of removing buffs of up to a certain level. Then let Pierce Shield do the rest.

 

 

Wow, I did not notice this! In that case I'd even have it remove only a single specific protection, or maybe split it to two spells - one for combat protections, one for specific protections. subtledoctor, where do specific protections fall in your breakdown?

As for AoE Dispel Screen, it does sounds interesting. If I got your description right it works like an AoE centered on the caster where on him it works on full power (SRv4) and to all the rest as a one time protection. It sounds a bit OP on theory, but it might not be. On most situations where RM is a danger it wouldn't make much difference. Dispel bombs is not a rare sight in SCS. Many demons have it at will (aTweaks only?).

 

 

In that case, how about making it a single spell affecting the caster and allies the same, but being able to absorb multiple charges (depending on level perhaps). That way even if you are facing RM-happy enemies, you have a few rounds to get them in enough trouble so that RM isn't their top priority anymore...

Spell Protections --> countered by Pierce Magic

- Combat/Damage Protections --> countered by Breach

- Illusions --> countered by Dispel Illusion/Oracle/True Sight

- Curses etc --> countered by Break Enchantment

- General buffs --> countered by Dispel Magic

 

 

I really like this. So what if DM dispels Aid, Bless, Chant, Luck, etc. As long as the critical stuff (CC, DW, NPP) requires a specific (single-target) attack I'm good, and as far as I'm concerned balance is restored to the world of Faerûn

[subtledoctor]

 

Spell Protections --> countered by Pierce Magic

- Combat/Damage Protections --> countered by Breach

- Illusions --> countered by Dispel Illusion/Oracle/True Sight

- Curses etc --> countered by Break Enchantment

- General buffs --> countered by Dispel Magic

 

I really like this. So what if DM dispels Aid, Bless, Chant, Luck, etc. As long as the critical stuff (CC, DW, NPP) requires a specific (single-target) attack I'm good,

Well like I said, if it was up to me, Breach would only allow the target to be *hit* by a sword or missile or something. CC, DW, and NPP are general buffs that would be be removed by Dispel - not Breach.

[toxin]

Well like I said, if it was up to me, Breach would only allow the target to be *hit* by a sword or missile or something. CC, DW, and NPP are general buffs that would be be removed by Dispel - not Breach.

 

IMHO that would bring us back to the point where DM/RM are too powerful. How about a new "Remove Protections" spell that would be the specific protection equivalent of Breach (essentially split Breach to two).

[subtledoctor]

I don't think that would make DM/RM too powerful, because now they would NOT remove anything that Breach does. Stoneskin, PfMW, Mantle, Shield, etc. In fact I think DM/RM would be seriously nerfed by this change.

 

If you want to tax their use a bit more, you could move one or both to higher levels. Maybe allow a save against RM like I described in the other thread, and keep it at 3rd level; and give no save against DM and move it to 4th/5th level.

 

Adding new spells would be a PITA because you'd have to program the AI to know how to use them.

[toxin]

I don't think that would make DM/RM too powerful, because now they would NOT remove anything that Breach does. Stoneskin, PfMW, Mantle, Shield, etc. In fact I think DM/RM would be seriously nerfed by this change.

 

These are already easily defended by Dispelling Screen (only relevant to mages). Personally I would rather keep Breach take down stuff like CC, NPP, DW and prevent DM/RM from doing so. Breach debuffing has no save, but at least your fighters will get de-buffed one at a time...

 

If you want to tax their use a bit more, you could move one or both to higher levels. Maybe allow a save against RM like I described in the other thread, and keep it at 3rd level; and give no save against DM and move it to 4th/5th level.

 

As far as saves go, I'd go for consistency between RM and DM. What does a magic resistant mind flayer care about DM? He'll just cast it to skip the save (assuming the AI is modified to understand the difference). Would still prefer the "Breach complement" approach above though, or both

[kreso]

Wha?? I didn't realize that. Seems to me the point of Breach should be to allow someone to be damaged, who is protected. So it should remove stuff like Stoneskin, Shield, Pro Energy and Pro Fire etc... but not stuff like Chaotic Commands or Bless or Remove Fear. Again I suggest:

Breach doesn't remove Bless.

Remove Fear is breachable, I'd probably vote to make it non-breachable and nerf down the duration of the spell (it's a *remove*; not a *protection from*).

 

 

how about making it a single spell affecting the caster and allies the same, but being able to absorb multiple charges (depending on level perhaps). That way even if you are facing RM-happy enemies, you have a few rounds to get them in enough trouble so that RM isn't their top priority anymore...

Not doable to my knowledge. In any case, absorbing more than one Remove is borderline broken.

 

 

Well like I said, if it was up to me, Breach would only allow the target to be *hit* by a sword or missile or something. CC, DW, and NPP are general buffs that would be be removed by Dispel - not Breach.

NPP I agree on; I'd make it so it's removed by Negative Energy attack only (and Dispels). DW I'm undecided about, SCS will use Breach specifically vs it however. CC is absurd and AI needs a quick failsafe counter to it.

RM allowing a save - T-down; anything with a save favours PCs.

 

 

(assuming the AI is modified to understand the difference).

Hardly.

 

Long story short - SCS will use Remove magic against:

 

1) Potion of Magic Shielding

2) Stoneskin

3) PfMW/Mantle etc.

4) Improved Invisibility

5) Bless

6) Chant

7) Haste // now made "undetectable" with SR, so won't be specifically targeted with dispels

8) Mirror Image

9) Defensive Harmony

10) Pro Evil

11) Physical Mirror

12) Chaotic Commands

13) Pro Petrification

14) Death Ward

 

 

Breach is used vs:

- Death Ward

- Stoneskin

- any kind of PfMW, Mantle etc.

- Stoneskin

- Chaotic Commands

- Pro Magic Energy

 

I don't think altering these parameters is a good thing. Def.Harmony I'd probably make non-counterable (I don't feel as "magic" is involved in this spell; and AI uses is as well); but altering dispellability/breachability( ) of others is a total no-go; sorry. I could live with CC being non-breachable but the spell itself should go through a heavy revison.

Do note that this leaves a *lot* of spells than can be made non-dispellable (my idea was that all Regeneration spells druids use can't be dispelled for example - it won't mess AI none; and it will give them exellent utility). More suggestions about non-dispellable stuff:

- True Seeing

- Blade Barrier

- Greater Malison

- Waves of Fatigue

- Bigby's effects

- Symbols

etc.

 

Anyhow, if anybody want the Dispel Screen AoE tweak described above I can upload my work somewhere.

[toxin]

absorbing more than one Remove is borderline broken

 

What do you mean? Isn't this conceptually what Spell Turning does?

 

Long story short - SCS will use Remove magic against:

...

Breach is used vs:

...

 

These lists are not mutually exclusive. All I'm saying is remove from the "Dispel" list anything that's already in the "Breach" list (both from AI usage and actual spell effect). The list of things DM dispels is long enough as it is, and you'll get a failsafe counter (at the price of being single-target).

 

Anyhow, if anybody want the Dispel Screen AoE tweak described above I can upload my work somewhere.

 

I do

[kreso]

 

absorbing more than one Remove is borderline broken

 

What do you mean? Isn't this conceptually what Spell Turning does?

ST (Deflection) doesn't stop RM.

 

 

These lists are not mutually exclusive. All I'm saying is remove from the "Dispel" list anything that's already in the "Breach" list (both from AI usage and actual spell effect). The list of things DM dispels is long enough as it is, and you'll get a failsafe counter (at the price of being single-target).

So RM wouldn't touch Stoneskins, DW, PfMW, Mantle, Imp.Mantle, Apsolute Immunity, Death Ward, Chaotic Commands, Pro Magic Energy/Pro Energy?

If you ever get either Demivrgvs(change spells) or DavidW(tweak AI) to agree on this I buy you a candy.

 

 

 

Anyhow, if anybody want the Dispel Screen AoE tweak described above I can upload my work somewhere.

 

I do

 

K, I'll upload it tomorrow.

[toxin]

ST (Deflection) doesn't stop RM.

 

I meant in the sense that it's a spell protection that loses charges (levels) until depleted.

 

So RM wouldn't touch Stoneskins, DW, PfMW, Mantle, Imp.Mantle, Apsolute Immunity, Death Ward, Chaotic Commands, Pro Magic Energy/Pro Energy?

If you ever get either Demivrgvs(change spells) or DavidW(tweak AI) to agree on this I buy you a candy

 

Touche If it changes anything, I would be content with only CC, DW, and NPP removed from the list (in that order of preference probably).

 

K, I'll upload it tomorrow.

 

Thanks, no pressure! I'll stay tuned.

[Demivrgvs]

My 2 cents.

Breach
I did asked DavidW to let me "nerf" Breach, but I couldn't do much about it. I made few things like Fire Shield and Blade Barrier not affected by it, with his consensus, but I simply cannot remove Stoneskin, CC, DW, ProEnergy from it. Also note the spell "concept" must keep some consistency (e.g. if it counters aspecific protection like CC or ProEnergy, I cannot make it not work against DW or ProFire respectively).

Overall, there's little else I can do here imo. One last daring idea I had was to make it counter only 1 combat and 1 specific protection per cast, but while it could be balanced on paper, I fear it would screw the AI and just force it to spam Breach multiple times.

Remove Magic
Again, the concept is crucial. I don't think we can take an arbitrary list of spells we wish to not be dispellable imo. Except very rare cases (e.g. a curse effect - Malison?) magic is dispellable per definition within D&D lore.

So RM wouldn't touch Stoneskins, DW, PfMW, Mantle, Imp.Mantle, Apsolute Immunity, Death Ward, Chaotic Commands, Pro Magic Energy/Pro Energy?
If you ever get either Demivrgvs(change spells) or DavidW(tweak AI) to agree on this I buy you a candy

Touche If it changes anything, I would be content with only CC, DW, and NPP removed from the list (in that order of preference probably).

Formulate a concept or give me a reason to justify that. We cannot just say "CC isn't affect by Dispel" because we want so.

 

The problem isn't RM potential to affect any spell, but rather that RM affects all spells at once, on a large friendly AoE. Unfortunately I cannot make it work as the AoE variant of PnP Dispel Magic (aka affect only one spell for each target), but we can limit its AoE.

 

@Kreso, does SCS need its AoE, or does it check for a single target with ongoing buffs? I suppose the latter.

 

Last but not least, I'll think about tweaking Dispelling Screen like you guys are talking about or offering something similar, but I'm not convinced yet.

[toxin]

Unfortunately I cannot make it work as the AoE variant of PnP Dispel Magic (aka affect only one spell for each target), but we can limit its AoE

 

If we can't make the AoE version work properly, why not just convert it to the single-target variant?

Limiting the AoE of RM/DM is great, but still more powerful than PnP (we are basically taking the single-target version and applying it to multiple targets).

 

Formulate a concept or give me a reason to justify that. We cannot just say "CC isn't affect by Dispel" because we want so.

 

My only argument is balance. But if DM/RM are nerfed (hopefully to single-target) that's just as good to my eyes.