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v2: New Thief kit ideas


Andyr

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I've had these in the workroom for a while, so I thought I'd post them here in case anyone else has any comments. :)

 

I'm not really working on extra bard kits at the moment, but rather possible changes to the existing stuff.

 

Anyway, the kits:

 

SHADOWDANCER: Operating in the border between light and darkness, Shadowdancers are nimble artists of deception. They are mysterious and unknown, never completely trusted but always inducing wonder when met. Despite their link with shadows and trickery, Shadowdancers are as often good as evil. They may use their incredible abilities as they wish.

 

Shadowdancers often work in troupes, never staying in one place too long. Some use their abilities to entertain. Others operate as thieves, using their abilities to infiltrate past defenses and dupe others. All Shadowdancer troupes maintain an aura of mystery among the populace, who never know whether to think well or ill of them.

 

Advantages:

-  Gains a +5% bonus to Hide and Move Silently skills per 2 levels

-  Has permanent Infravision

-  May cast Minor Mirror Image once per day

-  From level 5, can summon an undead Shadow once per day. This creature cannot be turned, rebuked or commanded by enemy Priests. The Shadow is summoned for one round per level and increases in power as the Shadowdancer gains levels.

-  From level 8, may cast Shadow Door once per day. Further uses are gained at levels 14 and 20.

 

Disadvantages:

-  May not set traps

-  Only gains 15 skill points per level

 

And the other:

 

DIVINE SEEKER: Sometimes a Church cannot act openly, either because of political constraints, bureaucracy, or because it doesn’t want its presence known in an area. During these times the abilities of discretion, stealth and speed are more valuable than direct manifestations of power. The Divine Seeker fulfils this role, infiltrating dangerous places to rescue prisoners, reclaim stolen relics, or eliminate enemy leaders. Quiet and protected by the power of her deity, a divine seeker can often accomplish what a direct assault could not.

 

Advantages:

-  Gains a base of 5 lore per level instead of 3

-  May cast Armour of Faith once per day

-  From level 4, may cast Know Alignment once per day

-  From level 8, may cast Detect Illusion once per day

-  From level 10, may cast Farsight once per day

-  From level 14, may cast True Seeing once per day

 

Disadvantages:

-  Gains trap usage at half the rate of a regular Thief

-  Only gains 15 skill points per level

 

These are both based on 3.5E Prestige Classes designed for Rogues, and any suggestions would be appreciated.

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SHADOWDANCER:

Shadowdancers often work in troupes, never staying in one place too long. Some use their abilities to entertain. Others operate as thieves, using their abilities to infiltrate past defenses and dupe others.
As the parent class is thief, isn't that kind of saying some members of this type of thief work as thieves? Kind of confusing IMHO. Maybe saying that some work as scouts or rouges, would get a similar point across. It doesn't mean the same thing, but I could just as easily see a scout shadowdancer as a robber.

 

Also, the mentions of Shadow Dancers travelling in troupes seems out of place to me (even though I know it says it in the 3e description) because the pc will never have a chance to travel in a shadow dancer troupe.

Advantages:

-  Gains a +5% bonus to Hide and Move Silently skills per 2 levels

-  Has permanent Infravision

-  May cast Minor Mirror Image once per day

-  From level 5, can summon an undead Shadow once per day. This creature cannot be turned, rebuked or commanded by enemy Priests. The Shadow is summoned for one round per level and increases in power as the Shadowdancer gains levels.

-  From level 8, may cast Shadow Door once per day. Further uses are gained at levels 14 and 20.

In 3e, didn't they gain a 'hide in plain sight' ability (or was that just nwn), maybe at higher levels they could gain a use or 2 of this ability per day, because I always thought of creating shadows that they could hide in as one of, if not the, point (along with summoning controllable shadows) of the class, and while the +5% per level to hide and move silently is nice gameplay wise, to me it more reflects a character that specializes in stealth than one with mysterious and feared powers that controlls the shadows.
Disadvantages:

-  May not set traps

-  Only gains 15 skill points per level

I don't see how set traps is a very logical disadvantage, maybe instead they could recieve a penalty to reaction or charisma or rep or something (rep probably wouldn't be a large enough penalty) to reflect how they are "ever completely trusted"

 

 

 

DIVINE SEEKER:

The porpouse mentioned in the description wouldn't ever be used in game, and very rarely even if some special divine seeker quests are added. Maybe a line about being capable adventurers even when not doing church missions or something.

 

Advantages:

-  Gains a base of 5 lore per level instead of 3

-  May cast Armour of Faith once per day

-  From level 4, may cast Know Alignment once per day

-  From level 8, may cast Detect Illusion once per day

-  From level 10, may cast Farsight once per day

-  From level 14, may cast True Seeing once per day

 

Disadvantages:

-  Gains trap usage at half the rate of a regular Thief

-  Only gains 15 skill points per level

I think sanctuary would be a very appropriate spell to add, but even then I think the kit is very underpowered. Know alignment and Farsight, while nice for roleplaying, are essentially useless gameplay wise, and while detect illusion and true seeing are nice spells, a character could gain similar (and arguably better) effects by putting a large portion of their lost skill points in the detect illusions skill. So essentially your being forced to focus on a certain skill (how I think of the thief skills for detect illusion and true seeing trade) and sucking at traps (does that count disarming) for 1 or two (if you include santuary) spells that any 1st level cleric could cast and a small lore bonus. I don't know what, but to me the kit needs something.

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The descriptions are taken from the Prestige Classes, yes. I don't see a problem with the description saying that many Shadowdancers are thieves. The Thief class in BG2 does not force you to be a thief.

 

The lack of traps is because they're more focussed on performance, hiding and so on. Setting traps is a thiefy thing to do, while this kit uses the Thief base class but is not necessarily a thief himself as I mentioned above. The capitalisation, or not, of the T in Thief/thief is what is important here. :)

 

It'd be a lot simpler if the Thief class was renamed Rogue as in 3E.

 

As for Divine Seekers: I'd rather not change the description. What about an NPC who had stolen for a church? I don't see why it is a problem. Sanctuary could be added as an extra spell. I don't see that the kit is particularly underpowered. And no, trap setting usage being gained at a slower rate does not affect trap disarming ability. The slower gain of skills and traps is to represent that they don't spend all their time training their skills as a Thief does, there is also an element of worship to their lives. So they get the spells and the Lore bonus.

 

SimDing0 suggested in chat that it might be a nice idea to have different kits of Divine Seeker with different bonus ablities for different deities. Short of coding up at least a dozen different installable kits (one per alignment then an extra for each non-human race) I am trying to think of a good way to do this. :) Sim has suggested an ability you may use only once, which gives you the extra power and changes your title to Divine Seeker of X. Choices would depend on race and alignment. Powers could be based on the ones given to Clerics as in the Cleric Remix mod.

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Minor amendment to stuff in progress:

 

SHADOWDANCER: Operating in the border between light and darkness, Shadowdancers are nimble artists of deception. They are mysterious and unknown, never completely trusted but always inducing wonder when met. Despite their link with shadows and trickery, Shadowdancers are as often good as evil. They may use their incredible abilities as they wish.

 

Shadowdancers often work in troupes, never staying in one place too long. Some use their abilities to entertain. Others operate as thieves, using their abilities to infiltrate past defenses and dupe others. All Shadowdancer troupes maintain an aura of mystery among the populace, who never know whether to think well or ill of them.

 

Advantages:

-  Gains a +5% bonus to Hide and Move Silently skills per 2 levels

-  Has permanent Infravision

-  May cast Reflected Image once per day

-  From level 5, can summon a Shadow once per day. The Shadow increases in power as the Shadowdancer gains levels, has stealthy abilities, and is summoned for 8 hours.

-  From level 8, may cast Shadow Door once per day. Further uses are gained at levels 14 and 20.

 

Disadvantages:

-  May not set traps

-  Only gains 15 skill points per level

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I am thinking of giving the Divine Seeker access to Sanctuary from level 1, and then Nondetection or something later on. Any more suggestions? Still toying with the idea of deity-specific stuff, but not sure.

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With the lower skill points that a Divine Seeker gets, Sanctuary would be a useful and not overpowering effect, I think. Allows them to concentrate on some other aspects of the craft without having to get their stealth scores really high for super safety.

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The only problem I have with the concept of the Divine Seeker is that to make it worthwhile, one might almost wish to create some specific quests that only that kit can do. As it is, having one as a Divine Seeker is not much different than just having a Cleric/Thief.

 

Mind you, I like the concept, and think you could incorporate some good roleplaying possibilities into it.

 

One idea I saw was to maybe make it based on alignment, since if you just focus on a few gods, some may be put off when a person's favorite deity isn't included.

 

Giving a special racial based kit is actually a good idea.

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