SCS components - HLA and Sequencers as Innate abilities

[Myrag]

Hmm I installed those components and one thing that surprised me is that HLAs are available from Cast Spell menu, not from Innate Abilities menu. Whereas Contigencies are available from Innate Abilities menu. Is this inconsistence intended?

[subtledoctor]

Yes, I believe so. Innate abilities can appear under either button. Since HLAs are sort of approximating 10th-level spells, most mods that make them innates put them under the spells button (where they conveniently appear after 9th-level spells). But they function just like innate abilities in all other ways - you don't need to memorize them, and they are automatically refreshed when you rest. The difference, in other words, is purely cosmetic.

[Myrag]

I see, thanks @subtledoctor. The reason I asked because there was one little difference here with the usage of Project Image, which normally can't use Innate Abilities but can use them if they are available via Cast Spell action.

This means that Sorcerer's project image can in fact cast HLAs since they are available from the cast spell menu. This makes sorcerer more powerful too because you can simply cast project image > 1x Improved alacrity > 1x planetar > 1x dragons' breath > 1x comet > 6x level 9 spells. 

Also contigencies are now free so a sorcerer will get more spells overall, especially around lvl 8 and 9 because of free Spell trigger and Chain Contigency spells.

Overall it feels like this component makes casters more powerfull, not less. Which is something I'm not used to with SCS mod  

Edited April 15, 2021 by Myrag

[subtledoctor]

6 hours ago, Myrag said:

I see, thanks @subtledoctor. The reason I asked because there was one little difference here with the usage of Project Image, which normally can't use Innate Abilities but can use them if they are available via Cast Spell action.

Well, Project Image is a broken and poorly-designed spell to begin with. This sounds like another facet to its poor design: it is entirely possible for the spell to suppress not just the innate ability button, but all innate spells in any location. But I guess they did not do that.

6 hours ago, Myrag said:

This means that Sorcerer's project image can in fact cast HLAs since they are available from the cast spell menu. This makes sorcerer more powerful too because you can simply cast project image > 1x Improved alacrity > 1x planetar > 1x dragons' breath > 1x comet > 6x level 9 spells. 

Yeah. Vanilla sorcerers are stupid and munchkiny. Vanilla sorcerers with vanilla Project Image, even moreso. Note, that sequence is also possible with unmodded HLAs, since unmodded HLAs are spells and the unmodded Project Image allows you to cast them with 9th-level spells slots.  SCS isn't designed to address any of this. Though, *cough* there are mods that do...

6 hours ago, Myrag said:

Also contigencies are now free so a sorcerer will get more spells overall, especially around lvl 8 and 9 because of free Spell trigger and Chain Contigency spells.

Overall it feels like this component makes casters more powerfull, not less.

*Cough* there are also mods that address this. My versions of innate sequencers, for example, have the option to preclude sorcerers from getting them at all. I think this is a really nice way to balance things, keeping sorcerers focused on raw power, casting everythign innately while making mages the masters of magical study and techniques (which I think is a good characterization of sequencers and contingencies.)

[Myrag]

Yea thanks! Exactly my thoughts. 

Quote

Note, that sequence is also possible with unmodded HLAs, since unmodded HLAs are spells and the unmodded Project Image allows you to cast them with 9th-level spells slots.

I know this is possible in unmodded game. In that sequence I only meant that with the component you get total of 10 casts of lvl 9 spells instead of usual 6.

Overall I completely agree with all your points. Especially around bad design of Project Image. I do use it extensively but mostly as it brings me this joy that I felt as a kid when I learned how OP It was. It's just a fun but broken spell. Nostalgia effect is hard with this one. 

Most, if not all, SCS components make the game harder, but this one seems like it makes the game easier. Which makes me wonder if this was intended outcome. 

That said, thanks for the response to my original question. I'm approaching end of BGEE and into SOD. Once I complete the trilogy I will know if this was a buff or not. 

[Guest Oppa]

I've been experiencing several issues with this specific SCS components. Not only all of the sequencers I try to create simply vanish into oblivion - they don't show up anywhere on my spellbar after I've created them, making for me impossible to use them - but now that I've started unlocking HLAs, I can only use them once. I've summoned my first planetar in the Underdark, and now the Summon Planetar button has simply vanished just like my sequencers, and I can't find it anymore neither in my spell list nor in my ability list. Any idea of what might be causing this issue?

Thanks in advance.

[Palanthis]

This component has been removed from the latest version of SCS (34.3) because of bugs (i don't know what bugs for sure). I guess you're using an older version, and you are probably experimenting these bugs.
I really hope @DavidW will find time to debug this component, which is really cool imho (and was optional is i remember right).

For now, i suggest removing this component and using the mod "Blood and Tome" which has exactly the same component. So far, it seems to work in my game (only tested in BGEE 1 / SOD 2.6 so far). You could use this mod only for this one component.
Since the innate sequencers component of Blood and Tome does work, i'm not sure wha'ts wrong with this component in SCS. I suspect it's something that happens only with multiclasses or some rare builds.

Edited June 30, 2022 by Palanthis

[Palanthis]

20 hours ago, Guest Oppa said:

I've been experiencing several issues with this specific SCS components. Not only all of the sequencers I try to create simply vanish into oblivion - they don't show up anywhere on my spellbar after I've created them, making for me impossible to use them - but now that I've started unlocking HLAs, I can only use them once. I've summoned my first planetar in the Underdark, and now the Summon Planetar button has simply vanished just like my sequencers, and I can't find it anymore neither in my spell list nor in my ability list. Any idea of what might be causing this issue?

Thanks in advance.

Also, all HLA can be cast only once per rest, and innate sequencers work the same way if i remember correctly (but that could depends on the mods used and their version). Make sure to rest to get them back. All buttons for innate sequencers are (like HLA) on the abilities bar, not the spells bars. The innate sequencer 's button has one color to cast it (and prepare the spells) and then it changes in another button, basically the same icon but with a different color. To cast your prepared sequencer, you have to click on this new button, which is, again, in the abilities bar.

[Guest Oppa]

Well, of course I know. But as I'm telling you, my Edwin does not have any ability bar whatsoever. Nor does my Viconia. They both can cast any HLA ONCE in an entire playthrough, and that's it.  No matter how many times I rest. Edwin cannot even use the sequencers he has prepared previously. They just don't show up.

Anyway, as far as I know, the only way to remove that component is to run SCS installation all over again, right? But wouldn't it screw my current save files?

 

[DavidW]

I can’t provide support for non-current versions, sorry - keeping up with the current one is hard enough! In this case the component was deprecated precisely because it had persistent bugs that I didn’t have time to pin down.

That’s assuming you are on an old version, mind. If I’m wrong and you’re using (an official download of) 34.3, get back to me.