Opcode 219: Attack and Saving Throw roll penalty, or AC and Saving Throw bonus?

[Guest Alphonse Brown]

Hi,

I noticed that the Near Infinity name for opcode 219, Attack and Saving Throw roll penalty, evokes that a character affected by it will have, say, Undead creatures, get a THAC0 penalty when trying to hit him, and a saving throw penalty when trying to defend from effects caused by him.

The IESDP on the other hand says that the character will get an AC bonus against e.g. Undead, and a saving throw bonus against effects caused by them.

Which one is right? Or maybe there's a misunderstanding on my end.

Furthermore, Near Infinity talks about penalties to Attack and Saving throw dice rolls. The roll bit evokes effects like Luck, which stay within the boundaries of the die: For a 6-faced die, we have at best Roll+Bonus = 6, meaning the bonus does not technically exist for a natural 6. Is it what Near Infinity is saying? Because that should make this opcode different from a raw THAC0 or saving throw bonus, for which the end result can be outside of [1, 20].

[Jarno Mikkola]

1 hour ago, Guest Alphonse Brown said:

Undead creatures, get a THAC0 penalty when trying to hit him, and a saving throw penalty when trying to defend from effects caused by him.

The IESDP on the other hand says that the character will get an AC bonus against e.g. Undead, and a saving throw bonus against effects caused by them.

This is effectively the same thing. It doesn't matter to whom the thing is pointed towards to, as if you reduce one, it's the same darn thing as if you were to add it to the other, just like an equation is still the same if you devide it by negative 1 ... but actually only one of those is correct, and I would bet it's IESDP.

[Guest Alphonse Brown]

The saving throw part is quite a difference: In one case the undead creature is worse at saving against the character's attacks, in the other the character is better at saving against the undead's attacks. In the former case, this effect would work like a mage specialist's spell advantage.

The AC/THAC0 part could have differences depending on when they are applied in the formula, because there are hard caps: The D20 roll constrains the effects of luck on THAC0, and the hard limit of -20 constraint the effects of certain AC bonuses (but not others).

[lynx]

Like the entry says, the effect should be considered from the point of view of the creature it is applied to. And you're reading too much into "rolls", these are flat modifiers as usual.

[kjeron]

It affects abilities that target the creature op219 is attached to, if the abilities source matches the IDS values specified in op219.

Think of it as a combination of opcode 0's specific AC modifiers (crush/slash/pierce/missile) and op346 (save vs. Spell school).  Except that it specifies an IDS value, rather than a damage type or spell school, and has a fixed bonus (2).

[Guest Alphonse Brown]

I see, so unless I misread, IESDP is 100% right. And we're in a context where THAC0 penalty should equal -AC bonus. Thanks guys.

Still, IMO good sir @argent77 should consider having Near Infinity rename it to something like AC and Saving Throw -2 bonus, as "attack roll penalty" could be interpreted with wiggle room, and more importantly "saving throw roll penalty" should be incorrect. (It's the defender that rolls the save die)

I'm sure he's got reasons for picking this name, like sticking to the Protection From Evil spell description or something. (Although that description appears to be wrong, lacking mention of Saving throws: )

When this spell is cast, it creates a magical barrier around the recipient at a distance of one foot. The barrier moves with the recipient and has two major effects: First, all attacks made by evil or evilly enchanted creatures against the protected creature receive a penalty of -2 to each attack roll. Second, summoned demons cannot target the protected creature.