Spell Thrust missing its target

[subtledoctor]

A problem that's hit me a couple times recently:

• I cast Spell Thrust to remove an enemy mage's Minor Deflection
• The enemy mage moves while I go through my casting animation and the projectile travels
• The spell hits where the enemy mage was, but they are now outside the AoE
• So I've wasted my memorized spell, and my action, and the enemy is still protected

I don't have to worry about that with most spells; if I cast at target, my caster tracks the target (as does the projectile, which is perhaps less realistic but it's how the game works). I assume this unfortunate behavior is a result of SR giving Spell Thrust an AoE, right? If you can't hit someone with it (they are Improved Invisible, maybe), then you cast it at their feet and they are effected?

I've never liked that - always thought it was unnecessary given that you can target invisible targets if you cast See Invisible. And if you install SCS then Spell Thrust can hit invisible targets anyway. If this means I'm going to miss the target, I'd rather the mod just adopt the SCS method. Or, I guess, reduce the casting time and make the projectile super-fast.

Edited August 27, 2021 by subtledoctor

[Bartimaeus]

I always thought Spell Thrust should be target + AoE...but then again, I don't usually much use Spell Thrust myself.

[grodrigues]

The problem applies to any spell cast at point via a projectile. Is this a mechanic people want do away with? In itself and separate from any other considerations, I do not see anything wrong with it.

Then there are the several ways we could go about it: (1) instead of targeting a location, target a creature and maybe bypass invis (2) increase aoe -- but then we have to look at other aoe spells and my general impression is that some of them, namely Glitterdust, maybe Grease, definitely need such a buff independent of this specific problem (3) reduce casting time and/or increase projectile speed.

[Bartimaeus]

Having a targetable (i.e. not at point) spell like Spell Thrust that can penetrate invisibility and thereby basically treating it as an AoE spell...but with the benefit of following its original target is an interesting idea. I'm not sure how one would communicate that, though...and should other target + AoE spells (e.g. Hold Person) also get the same treatment?

[subtledoctor]

19 hours ago, grodrigues said:

The problem applies to any spell cast at point via a projectile. Is this a mechanic people want do away with? In itself and separate from any other considerations, I do not see anything wrong with it.

I think I am seeing it more often because I have modded things a bit in a way that leads me to cast Spell Thrust more often. But the problem is not with the mechanic itself - I'm okay with other AoE spells sometimes missing.  I just find it jarring here because it  make Spell Thrust different from the way all the other protection removal spells work (Secret Word, Pierce Magic, etc.) Those never miss their targets... this one sometimes does.

I don't think increasing the AoE is the best idea, because it has a small AoE on purpose. It is not designed to clear spell protections from everyone on the map, it is really meant to be cast next to an invisible caster, and if you happen to catch two casters in the AoE it is a happy accident.

I don't know that setting the 'bypass invisibility' flag is the best idea, because 1) that requires ToBEx or EE, and 2) that means not leaning into the way invisibility detection works in SR. (That flag is unnecessary for anyone who casts See Invisible since they will have opcode 193 detection.)  I am capable of treating this issue for my own setup, I was just mentioning it in case anyone else thinks it is worthy of consideration. I think the best options are:

1. Change nothing (everyone else is okay with this, I'll modify things on my end)
2. Change the target from 'Any Point' to 'Living Actor' (but this is a major change from Demi's design and so should be considered carefully)
3. Just make the casting speed very quick (I don't see much downside here, how often does anyone prioritize interrupting Spell Thrust??)

EDIT -

6 minutes ago, Bartimaeus said:

and should other target + AoE spells (e.g. Hold Person) also get the same treatment?

Hold Person already follows its target, doesn't it? Frankly sometimes this annoys me, e.g. if the target wanders away from his friends who I am trying to catch with the AoE. In most cases I prefer AoE spells to target 'Any Point' ... only in the case of Spell Thrust am I finding it kind of jarring.

(And if I misread your post and you were asking "should we allow Hold Person to target invisible enemies?" then I would say no. Again, just cast See Invisible.)

Edited August 25, 2021 by subtledoctor

[Bartimaeus]

1 hour ago, subtledoctor said:

that requires ToBEx

Pretty sure ToBEx is required anyways, but it's a minor point.

1 hour ago, subtledoctor said:

(And if I misread your post and you were asking "should we allow Hold Person to target invisible enemies?" then I would say no. Again, just cast See Invisible.)

Yes, this part, but specifically in the context of allowing a target Spell Thrust to pierce invisibility (i.e. for consistency's sake - if one target + AoE spell pierces invisibility, then should others as well?), and no other. Hold Person's projectile is quite small so I don't think it's a good idea to change it from a target.

[subtledoctor]

41 minutes ago, Bartimaeus said:

for consistency's sake - if one target + AoE spell pierces invisibility, then should others as well?

My feeling is that Spell Thrust is different in being a spell protection remover - it has no effect except against particular enemies with particular protections. So I think it’s okay to handle differently from more general AoE spells. I don’t really think of it as an AoE spell, even when it has an AoE. Like I say, I never try to actually affect multiple enemies with it; when I’m breaking down spell protections I’m generally focused on one enemy. Piercing invisibility is not designed as a feature of the spell, but just as a metagame convenience - meant to prevent [Spell Deflection + Improved Invisibility + Nondetection] from being a win-button.