New patches

[grodrigues]

First, apologies for being MIA, for what? 5 months?

 

New patches:

- Merged: addition of a README and a new changelog. Undoubtedly the most important patch to SR since it is on GitHub.

- Submitted: it is now possible to explicitly clear (that is, set to 0) the break invisibility and hostile spell flags.

 

Still have to comb over the flags table and set sane values and then make an RFC; but honestly, not a priority. There was also the mention of changing Sphere of Chaos' berserk to feeblemind (feeblemind is a chaotic effect and therefore covered by Chaotic Commands immunities) because berserk does not work as expected for NPC's and then change Prismatic Spray's feeblemind to something more appropriate. I will have some time this week and hopefully (but no promises) can at least submit an RFC on this. Along the way I will silently bump the version to 4.19beta.

 

Is there something else that needs fixing? Stick to fixes only, and with links to any discussions, please. I *really* *really* want to get this out.

 

If there aren't, then I will bugger Mike to run whatever is needed to finalize the release (update the docs, run some bat files, etc. I cannot run bats because I am on linux -- at least not without a windows-linux layer, there is bound to be such a thing but I have never used it).

 

note: duh, brain fart, it suffices to have wine installed and then simply "wine start <bat file>" and alias it in bash_aliases or something similar.

 

Edited February 13, 2022 by grodrigues
note on running bats on linux

[subtledoctor]

57 minutes ago, grodrigues said:

addition of a README and a new changelog. Undoubtedly the most important patch to SR since it is on GitHub.

In case you were being sarcastic, I actually think this is a true statement. 

58 minutes ago, grodrigues said:

Therewas also the mention of changing Sphere of Chaos' berserk to feeblemind

I’m in favor of this, but it depends on whether this is seen as a fix, or something more. In case it is deemed more than a fix and not worth including, but some players want this change, I already have a working tweak to Sphere if Chaos that does this. So no pressure either way AFAIC. 

[subtledoctor]

Worth mentioning: I installed the latest commit right before this, and everything seems great at a cursory glance. One thing that bugs me, though, is the icon for Spike Growth. Seems like it uses the icon from the old v3 Pyrotechnics spell. (I think.) Seems to me it should just borrow the icon from IWD and be consistent. (IWDification and SCS have been using it forever, I wouldn’t be concerned with copyright or anything.)

[grodrigues]

On 2/13/2022 at 7:30 PM, subtledoctor said:

One thing that bugs me, though, is the icon for Spike Growth. Seems like it uses the icon from the old v3 Pyrotechnics spell. (I think.) Seems to me it should just borrow the icon from IWD and be consistent.

I have looked at the icons SCS ships (I imagine they are the same as IWDification) and I have to say I do not quite like them; for lack of a better word, they look "too clean". In particular, the Spike Growth icon does not strike me as a huge improvement (and I do not know what "consistent" means in this context). If this all sounds awfully subjective -- in the sense that it is hardly more than "not my taste" -- that is because it is, so if there is more support behind changes like these I will not oppose.

It is a pity that at the moment such trivial changes cannot be done more easily by power users, but to achieve that, some larger code changes have to be put in place.

Edited February 18, 2022 by grodrigues

[subtledoctor]

On 2/13/2022 at 12:09 PM, grodrigues said:

Is there something else that needs fixing?

Has this been addressed? (Avengers getting Cone of Cold which screws up SCS AI.) SPDR501 should be a party-friendly AoE spell. I favor Waves of Fatigue... though possibly Confusion or Greater Malison could work as well.

[grodrigues]

On 2/17/2022 at 6:16 AM, subtledoctor said:

Has this been addressed? (Avengers getting Cone of Cold which screws up SCS AI.) SPDR501 should be a party-friendly AoE spell. I favor Waves of Fatigue... though possibly Confusion or Greater Malison could work as well.

No, not addressed. Will take a look at it this weekend.

[grodrigues]

On 2/17/2022 at 6:16 AM, subtledoctor said:

Has this been addressed? (Avengers getting Cone of Cold which screws up SCS AI.) SPDR501 should be a party-friendly AoE spell. I favor Waves of Fatigue... though possibly Confusion or Greater Malison could work as well.

 

As I see it, there are essentially two options here: the first option is (1) to retain Cone of Cold but do the dance suggested guyudennis in the linked thread. The second option (2) is to replace CoC with something more closely resembling chaos; of your suggestions, the clear winner on this front is confusion. I can understand the rationale of giving elemental damage to Avengers, but truth be told, I have zero experience playing them, so any takes? If no clear decision either way, I will use my prerogative as Dictator-In-Office and make an executive decision. Although on the grounds of what fits the kit closest I would say (1) is probably best, Confusion is not out of place by any means and (2) is bound to be the easiest to implement and with less chances to confuse SCS so that is where my preference lies.

Edited February 22, 2022 by grodrigues

[subtledoctor]

IMVHO I think "it needs be a party-friendly AoE spell" trumps "Avengers need to do elemental damage." Adding Cone of Cold as DVDR501 or whatever will only go so far; because it will still take extra code in SCS to deal with that and who knows when that might happen. Anything that requires extra work on DavidW's part is less than ideal. I live Waves of Fatigue for being 5th level already and for being, in my mind, a 'natural' druid-friendly effect that works on the targets' vigor, if you will. (Though on reflection, it overlaps quite a bit with Greater Command.) Confusion seems a bit more 'magicky,' more from the Enchantment school. But then again these are BG2 Avengers right? So it's okay for them to use more magicky effects. And getting Confusion as a 5th level while most priests only get it as a 7th level spell is a clear bonus for the kit.

Between us, who really uses Cone of Cold anyway? Avengers already get Ice Storm in 4th-level spells, and Chain Lightning in 6th-level spells. I never, ever memorize Cone of Cold. Directional party-unfriendly spells are just so bad in this engine. (Why I never use Shout, Smashing Wave, or Prismatic Spray, either.) i feel like Confusion would get the Avenger a ton more actual utility, and icing on the top is it would be instantly compatible with SCS encounters with zero extra effort.

Looking at the list again: giving the Avengers Greater Malison might actually be interesting. It would give them an advantage in their use of Hold Person/Animal, Poison, the effects of Insect spells, their elemental damage spells would do more damage, etc. If Avengers are supposed to be better at using magic aginst their targets, then this would give them a unique tool for that end. (And would also probably be zero extra effort on the SCS front.)

[Bartimaeus]

Very against Cone of Cold as well - I also despise cone spells (particularly non-party-friendly ones), as cone projectiles are tricky and...unreliable, to say the least. Confusion as an alternative seems fine to me...and I'd say it's almost certainly a better value at 5th level compared to Waves of Fatigue at 5th level - hell, it'd honestly probably make sense to switch them in the mage spellbook. That might be my dislike of Waves of Fatigue talking, though...

Wouldn't mind Greater Malison either, but I do find a certain appeal in returning to Avenger what is essentially the vanilla spell in the first place.

Edited February 22, 2022 by Bartimaeus

[guyudennis]

If we connect the line and say druid (soells) functions within the confines of nature, and nature is infested with fey creatures, then enchantments fit pretty well with druids. Also, the way I imagine her, an avenger freezes and burns (or maybe dominates and confuses); she does not disable, as that feels less vengenful.

So for what's its worth, I'd vote for Confusion (a direct enchantment attack rather than necromancy disable) here for the general public. I mod my own game and turn avergers to elementalists nevertheless.

[ahungry]

If the overwhelming consensus is no one uses party-unfriendly cone spells, is it possible to just remove the friendly-fire damage and make them enemy only? (maybe not a SR specific change, but a tweaks change could do it globally to all spells of cone + damage type)

[grodrigues]

This here

On 2/22/2022 at 4:52 PM, subtledoctor said:

i feel like Confusion would get the Avenger a ton more actual utility, and icing on the top is it would be instantly compatible with SCS encounters with zero extra effort.

is my main reason for preferring Confusion, so by the power invested in me by whomever and whatever and whenever, I am going with that. As for the other options: I confess I never use Waves of Fatigue (which is probably a good reason to revisit the spell in the first opportunity), but I do not want to hamper Avengers (trading a "non-usable spell" for another, while not a net loss is not a win either) and I find myself agreeing with Bartimeus' and liking a "returning to Avenger what is essentially the vanilla spell in the first place".

Patch already submitted.

On 2/24/2022 at 12:14 AM, ahungry said:

If the overwhelming consensus is no one uses party-unfriendly cone spells, is it possible to just remove the friendly-fire damage and make them enemy only?

This request is more of a symptom that the spells as they are still need refinement. I intensely dislike asymmetry between the player and enemy NPC's and want to keep it at a minimum, as little as the engine allows. Cone spells do present a challenge because of engine limitations, but I do not know what is the best solution -- maybe make them all party-friendly?

[subtledoctor]

35 minutes ago, grodrigues said:

I confess I never use Waves of Fatigue (which is probably a good reason to revisit the spell in the first opportunity)

You should try my tweaked version. I've found it worth casting in my game. (EDIT - I see that tweak, plus several others, is not described in the first post. It is basically mass 'Command' plus Malison plus a double-strength Bad Chant. There is still an argument for placing it at 4th level, though, in place of Confusion, and putting Confusion at 5th level in place of Chaos. The only issue there is, then you have both Malison and WoF at 4th level.)

35 minutes ago, grodrigues said:

I intensely dislike asymmetry between the player and enemy NPC's and want to keep it at a minimum, as little as the engine allows. Cone spells do present a challenge because of engine limitations, but I do not know what is the best solution -- maybe make them all party-friendly?

I have made good, if very limited, use of Prismatic Spray (though I did have a friendly fire incident in my last fight, the cone is wider than I thought). And enemies have used it with occasional devastating effect against me. I guess tellingly, though, I have used it more from a frontliner with the Helm of Brilliance than from any mage.

Still, to make it party-friendly would make all those spells just too good. I make IWD's Smashing Wave friendly because it is underwhelming to begin with, and I like the idea of Color Spray being friendly (I kind of see it as a very short-range blast of light into a single enemy's face). But Cone of Cold is meant to freeze a whole area, and Prismatic Spray is ridiculously OP for its level. I mean conceptually, if these would be party-friendly why not Fireball? Why not Meteor Swarm?

Maybe just make them single-target spells. Keep the fancy animation, but only affect one enemy. How often does someone try, much less succeed, to hit multiple enemies with these spells (without hitting allies)? SR does this with Lightning Bolt, and I still cast that.

Edited February 27, 2022 by subtledoctor