Divine Protection/Shield of Lathander?

[Userunfriendly]

Readme for IWD Divine Spells component, level 5

Is it Shield of Lathander or Divine Protection? YouTube videos says Divine Protection, but readme claims it is Shield of Lathander. Also, duration, casting time and description are different...please update readme. 

[polytope]

In game the spells are called Divine Protection and Greater Divine Protection, so that enemy priests (most of whom are unaffiliated with Lathander, even if you play evil!) can justifiably use those, both have casting time of 1 and duration of 3 rounds, which is a bit imbalanced with the Amulet of Power making both instant, in IWD(-ification), the spells Shield of Lathander and Greater Shield of Lathander would be casting speed 8 and 9, duration two and three rounds, respectively.

Powerful for the AI controlled priests, but even more so for the player...

[Userunfriendly]

3 hours ago, polytope said:

In game the spells are called Divine Protection and Greater Divine Protection, so that enemy priests (most of whom are unaffiliated with Lathander, even if you play evil!) can justifiably use those, both have casting time of 1 and duration of 3 rounds, which is a bit imbalanced with the Amulet of Power making both instant, in IWD(-ification), the spells Shield of Lathander and Greater Shield of Lathander would be casting speed 8 and 9, duration two and three rounds, respectively.

Powerful for the AI controlled priests, but even more so for the player...

I see.  But the readme has "Shield of Lathander". I was actually only requesting corrections to the readme.

Edited March 25, 2023 by Userunfriendly

[Christian]

4 hours ago, polytope said:

In game the spells are called Divine Protection and Greater Divine Protection, so that enemy priests (most of whom are unaffiliated with Lathander, even if you play evil!) can justifiably use those, both have casting time of 1 and duration of 3 rounds, which is a bit imbalanced with the Amulet of Power making both instant, in IWD(-ification), the spells Shield of Lathander and Greater Shield of Lathander would be casting speed 8 and 9, duration two and three rounds, respectively.

Powerful for the AI controlled priests, but even more so for the player...

With those casting times and such short durations I would never ever use them.

[Userunfriendly]

It changes once it's Aerie.  Using Contingency, it's a viable way to keep her alive, if you've used up your 6th level mage slots. (Protection from Magic Weapons)

[polytope]

17 hours ago, Christian said:

With those casting times and such short durations I would never ever use them.

Most players use Improved Alacrity and Time Stop with comparable casting time to duration ratios?

I mean with the SCS tweaks these spells are very strong protecting from not only melee damage like Protection from Magic Weapons/Absolute Immunity do but spell damage also, so that a cleric whose defenses are dispelled by a lich which then throws a Dragon's Breath at him can respond with Divine Protection (like I said, CT = 0 with the Amulet of Power), even 3x Flame Arrow or 3x Lighting Bolt sequencers etc which usually happen too fast to react to can be absorbed. True, mindflayers (and level drainers, if you didn't have the amulet) can still kill you with attacks, but that's about it.

Also, it's a spell for clerics, who unlike mages don't usually get this kind of fast casting comprehensive protection (ProMW, AI etc., even Stoneskin for all except druids), clerics have better armour options, much more hp (including hp boosting spells like Holy Power and Righteous Magic) and better physical resistance than mages (Armour of Faith, that flail etc.) it's contrary to the way the cleric class always felt and played.

Enemies - in my game anyway - also seemingly fail to recognize that your cleric has become an impervious Mordy Sword when he casts these spells, and waste time swinging at him.

Edited March 26, 2023 by polytope

[Christian]

I won't argue that casting time of 1 is slightly overpowered. But needing basically a whole round to cast them makes them almost unusable in combat. If using your clerics offensively like I do in my current playthrough (Jaheira and Anomen) they have to leave combat to recast Armor of Faith reliably because despite armor class they do get interrupted very often if they try to cast it in combat. And said Lich will only need one timestop to wait out those protections.

[jmerry]

53 minutes ago, Christian said:

... leave combat to recast Armor of Faith reliably ...

Uh, what? Armor of Faith has casting time 1. That's one of the spells you can use reliably in combat on a warrior priest. Maybe you were thinking of a different spell?

As for what the casting time should be, there's a general pattern to follow. Virtually every buff in the game with duration four rounds or less has casting time 1 or less. The exceptions in the BG series:

Aid, when cast at caster level 3 or less. (Duration 3 + 1*level rounds, casting time 5)

Resist Fire and Cold, when cast at caster level 4 or less (Duration 1*level rounds, casting time 5)

Luck (Duration 3 rounds, casting time 2)

Improved Alacrity (Duration 2 rounds, casting time 9)

Seeking Sword, when cast at caster level 4 or less (Duration 1*level rounds, casting time 5)

Boon of Lathander, when cast at caster level 4 or less (Duratin 1*level rounds, casting time 3)

A casting time of 1 for a very powerful defensive spell that only lasts two or three rounds? Absolutely in line with the general design patterns.

[Christian]

2 hours ago, jmerry said:

Uh, what? Armor of Faith has casting time 1. That's one of the spells you can use reliably in combat on a warrior priest. Maybe you were thinking of a different spell?

As for what the casting time should be, there's a general pattern to follow. Virtually every buff in the game with duration four rounds or less has casting time 1 or less. The exceptions in the BG series:

Aid, when cast at caster level 3 or less. (Duration 3 + 1*level rounds, casting time 5)

Resist Fire and Cold, when cast at caster level 4 or less (Duration 1*level rounds, casting time 5)

Luck (Duration 3 rounds, casting time 2)

Improved Alacrity (Duration 2 rounds, casting time 9)

Seeking Sword, when cast at caster level 4 or less (Duration 1*level rounds, casting time 5)

Boon of Lathander, when cast at caster level 4 or less (Duratin 1*level rounds, casting time 3)

A casting time of 1 for a very powerful defensive spell that only lasts two or three rounds? Absolutely in line with the general design patterns.

Might be observation bias on my side, but even casting time of 1 is long enough to get interrupted when casting without total protection.

Apart from that I agree that the very short duration of the spells justifies the short casting time and fits to other similar spells. But I do agree too that they bring a different flavor to clerics opposed to vanilla. That being said I do find clerics to be really pushovers with vanilla spells only. And Druids really only have awful low level spells.

[polytope]

On 3/26/2023 at 7:49 PM, Christian said:

said Lich will only need one timestop to wait out those protections.

Off topic, but it's a bug that's annoyed me for a long time that short duration buffs can wear off during a Time Stop, I mean, the idea of the spell is that time is frozen for everyone except the caster, poison and such shouldn't continue to tick during Time Stops either, EE didn't fix it.

Anyway, SCS AI does not exploit this, enemies will cast Time Stop but not specifically to wait for your protections to expire... It wouldn't matter though, because fast casting Divine Protection can be used on the fly as a reaction to what an enemy caster does, thus soaking up their most powerful offensive spells (Horrid Wilting, Dragon's Breath etc.) in exchange for the caster's 5th level priestly spells (remember with Wondrous Recall you have a LOT once caster level reaches 11), I could actually accept the 7th level variant, but not this one. In vanilla, the only way to instantly pop up a protection that could absorb a volley of such powerful spells was by the potion of Magic Shielding or Scroll of Protection from Magic, which are very rare resources.

On 3/26/2023 at 9:17 PM, jmerry said:

As for what the casting time should be, there's a general pattern to follow. Virtually every buff in the game with duration four rounds or less has casting time 1 or less. The exceptions in the BG series:

If we're going to talk about developer intent, the designers of IWD gave both spells a long casting time. The general rule in AD&D is casting time = level for Wizard spells or level + 3 for Priest spells with a few exceptions (Animate Dead, Sunray, Finger of Death, (Un)Holy Word, Power Word spells etc.), so the original CT was about on point.

Buffs with a duration based on level like Aid aren't a strong argument about what spells with a fixed duration should do.

[Christian]

47 minutes ago, polytope said:

Off topic, but it's a bug that's annoyed me for a long time that short duration buffs can wear off during a Time Stop, I mean, the idea of the spell is that time is frozen for everyone except the caster, poison and such shouldn't continue to tick during Time Stops either, EE didn't fix it.

Anyway, SCS AI does not exploit this, enemies will cast Time Stop but not specifically to wait for your protections to expire... It wouldn't matter though, because fast casting Divine Protection can be used on the fly as a reaction to what an enemy caster does, thus soaking up their most powerful offensive spells (Horrid Wilting, Dragon's Breath etc.) in exchange for the caster's 5th level priestly spells (remember with Wondrous Recall you have a LOT once caster level reaches 11), I could actually accept the 7th level variant, but not this one. In vanilla, the only way to instantly pop up a protection that could absorb a volley of such powerful spells was by the potion of Magic Shielding or Scroll of Protection from Magic, which are very rare resources.

This might be a playstyle thing, but when facing a Lich exposed party members have a protection from fire and magic damage through items and spells when the fight begins and do not need to cast it mid fight unless removed. And timestop is a huge problem because your characters auras do not get cleansed during it. If you cast Divine protection before the timestop, it will be gone once the timestop ends and the spells take effect and your aura will be blocked. So it really doesn´t matter if the SCS AI does this intentionally, it will happen quite regularly.

And to reiterate: yes, this is a buff to clerics. And dearly needed in my opinion. Unless taking some weird kits into account they are imho the weakest class by far with only vanilla spells.

[subtledoctor]

2 hours ago, polytope said:

The general rule in AD&D is casting time = level for Wizard spells or level + 3 for Priest spells with a few exceptions (Animate Dead, Sunray, Finger of Death, (Un)Holy Word, Power Word spells etc.), so the original CT was about on point.

I mean, by that logic PfMW and Absolute Immunity should also have long casting times. (And the former should only protect against weapons, not natural attacks.) But they don’t, so I don’t see why a mod like this shouldn’t make these priest spells roughly consistent with the way those other spells work in this game… 

Edited March 28, 2023 by subtledoctor

[jmerry]

3 hours ago, polytope said:

The general rule in AD&D is casting time = level for Wizard spells or level + 3 for Priest spells with a few exceptions (Animate Dead, Sunray, Finger of Death, (Un)Holy Word, Power Word spells etc.), so the original CT was about on point.

Buffs with a duration based on level like Aid aren't a strong argument about what spells with a fixed duration should do.

I agree that the buffs with level-based duration aren't a strong argument about what spells with a fixed duration should do. All right, then, throw out those examples. Now all that's left with duration 2 or more are Luck and Improved Alacrity. You just made my overall argument even stronger.

You can see the casting time = level pattern in game, but there are a lot of exceptions. Out of twelve level 1 priest spells in standard BG2EE, the casting times include 1 (Command, Protection from Evil, Remove Fear, Armor of Faith), 2 (Detect Evil, Shillelagh), 4 (Entangle, Magical Stone, Sanctuary), 5 (Cure Light Wounds), and 9 (Bless, Doom). At that level, the exceptions obscure the pattern entirely. And in the big picture, short-duration buffs having casting time is common enough to be a second pattern overriding the original.

[polytope]

On 3/28/2023 at 10:46 PM, Christian said:

And timestop is a huge problem because your characters auras do not get cleansed during it. If you cast Divine protection before the timestop, it will be gone once the timestop ends and the spells take effect and your aura will be blocked. So it really doesn´t matter if the SCS AI does this intentionally, it will happen quite regularly.

But of course you don't cast Divine Protection if you see an enemy mage or lich attempting a Time Stop, easily recognizable as a slow-casting alteration spell, some people listen for casting vocals, I look for the casting graphics instead which for alteration is either a sharp blue sparkling or a wavy white-gold "tunnel" depending on whether you have vanilla or IWD casting animations. In most cases you can wait until the spell is actually complete if you're a decent distance from the mage before reacting with Divine Protection (Abi-Dalzim's Horrid Wilting and Dragon's Breath have pretty slow projectiles).

Like I said earlier, I think the 7th level version is okay, but not the 5th level one, particularly not when it can be recharged through Wondrous Recall.