berelinde

No.

We've talked about this before, privately, and I do not appreciate having this topic raised on a public forum.

Dumbledore stays dead.

There will be no reconcilliation. She will not go from a chronic and possibly pathological liar to a saint. Not in my mod, anyway. If somebody else wants to write the Miranda, Martyr of the Temple District mod, that's their business.

No one could possibly believe that Miranda lied to Gavin because she saw the goodness in him, trusted him, and wished he *were* the father of her child. Not when it is so much more credible to think that she simply took advantage of Gavin's inexperience and youthful gullibility. Is it so inconceivable to think that somebody who would extort priests on the streets, in the presence of her daughter, would speak untruths elsewhere in her life, if it served her advantage? Is there any indication that even Miranda knows who the father of her child really is?

There was no bond of raising a child together. There were only two completely incompatible people trying to raise a child without killing each other.

No, this thread isn't all about evil roleplaying options, but about discussing possibilities for BG2, good or evil.

About the PC adopting Lanie herself, and about Miranda's role in this, all I can say it that this is getting into serious spoiler territory. I will say that Miranda does love Lanie in her way, and she does have ideas about what she'd like to do in the future. Even in the unmodified game, it is clear that Miranda has made her living off the charity of men. There is every indication that she's been doing this for quite some time. As she and Lanie age, it will become harder and harder for her to use that ruse successfully, and Miranda is not stupid.

If you'd like to see how that facet plays out, the dialogue is written. I won't post it here, but I will send it via PM.

I'm not into evil RP, either, but I want to give people who *like* evil roleplaying something to do. There's nothing worse than DLing a mod only to find out that there's absolutely *nothing* to do.

As for the PC that took some decisive action prior to meeting Gavin, he'd be distraught, naturally, but he'd have no reason to suspect her. It would be the perfect opportunity for a roleplayer who wanted to show a transformation from evil to good to really shine.

Come to think of it, in a world where resurrection is possible and slavers can be hunted down and justice levied on them in a rather permanent way, even a PC who *did* take action after meeting Gavin might have some really sweet roleplaying options. Don't forget that while Lathandrite clergy don't ordinarily favor resurrection, they support it wholeheartedly when the deceased still has a job to do. In this case, the job would be completing the pennance and atonement of someone no less powerful than a Bhaalspawn! Sounds like a compelling reason to me.

"Gavin, I did something truly horrible. I regret it with every fiber of my being, and I'll do whatever it takes to make it right, even if it means resurrecting your child or hunting her captors to the ends of Faerun."

It all depends on how much effort I want to put into an unlikely set of circumstances...

Given the fact that any number of unfortunate fates can befall someone in the City of Coin, it might be advisable to make provisions, should Lanie meet some unfortunate fate before Gavin is recruited...

Right now it's still just a thought exercise. But if it happened, he'd grieve. He'd feel a lot of guilt, and it would be amplified if it was his own relationship that exposed his daughter to risk in the first place.

No, she isn't his biological daughter, but Lanie thinks he is. Miranda knows Gavin isn't her father, as does Gavin, but Miranda is unaware that he knows.

Confusing enough?

As for the option where the PC either had Lanie kidnapped or murdered while she was evil, then confessed, I don't know how that would pan out. He would be torn by a lot of conflicting emotions, and I'd definitely need to think about how he would react.

Like I said, this is meant to be a dealbreaker. Every NPC has some character trait that makes him unacceptable, and this might be one of Gavin's. There are people that won't take Gavin along because he's got a daughter. That is a perfectly acceptable take on it.

You have to understand that he has to provide for his daughter, but he has a duty to the PC, too. His promise to her doesn't end until her quest does, and that promise can be a lot more compelling to him that Cernd's or Keldorn's, depending on the relationship status, at least in the absence of a Cernd or Keldorn romance.

Kidnapping is out, but I wouldn't rule out assassination. If she arranged it, the PC might have the ability to confess, but I can't guarantee it would be a happy ending, even if the PC did start the game evil.

I also want to say that this was always intended to be a deal-breaker conversation for Gavin. Not everyone will like how it's handled, and not everyone will like Gavin after the conversation plays out. But it's important to his character that it stay the way it is, since this very conversation was the reason he exists in the Forgotten Realms at all.

Gavin was a PnP character for 28 years. I knew him well. The first time I saw that exchange between Miranda, Nirkhas, and Lanie, the thought that followed "OMG! That woman just tried to give away her own kid!" was "That really was a pathetic lie. I wonder who would have fallen for it?" The obvious answer was "Gavin." And he did claim Lanie as his own, by virtue of Miranda's own words, or as it was then, the assertion that she was carrying his child. Gavin's thought process: "You have said you carry my child, so the child you carry is mine. She is my daughter, I am her father. End of argument."

Dunno. Maybe. My thoughts the first time I witnessed the exchange were along the lines of "OMG! That woman just tied to give away her own kid!"

Everyone is different, but I know I'm not *that* unique. If I'm thinking that, surely somebody else would be, too.

It's a remote risk, as I'm sure that many men, whether they be in the Forgotten Realms, Russia, or the US, would probably just look for the easy way out. But it is a risk, nonetheless.

Lanie's line "I liked the other daddies better" makes me think that she expects her contact with the men to extend beyond the exchange a few coins. If it were all a game to her, and she didn't expect to see the man again, it wouldn't matter much to her whether she liked him or not.

But that is why it's a subjective analysis. It helps the player understand why the scene plays out the way it does, and why I've written it out the way I have.

If anyone wants a preview of the particular exchange, it's already written, so send a PM. But it contains spoilers too serious to post here, even in a marked thread.

Suggestions for BG2 go here.

Ok I registered.

Cool!

As a possible idea feel free to tell me if this is a dumb idea, but I've been thinking about Miranda. She doesn't love Gavin anymore and it seems like Lanie is just a piece of luggage for her. Maybe she and the pc can just arrange for Lanie to be sent somewhere far away. Or the pc can pay her to take off with Lanie for good. Or something like that and then the pc won't have to worry about feeling guilty for killing a child.

Miranda's role is already pretty much set, and I'm happy with the way it turned out.

What is known about Miranda in the vanilla game: she is teaching her daughter to lie, she is definitely motivated by money, she demonstrates that she does care for the girl (or she'd have sold her herself before this time - it's easier to extort men when unencumbered by a child, after all), she has asked Talon Nirkhas to take responsibility for "his child," she will attempt to use the same ploy on male party members, regardless of their race and regardless of whether or not they have witnessed the incident with Talon Nirkhas.

berelinde's highly subjective analysis of Miranda in the vanilla game: Miranda looks out for herself first, her daughter second. Should Talon Nirkhas have taken Miranda's claim literally, he would have full rights to the child, and could even take her away from Miranda, if he chose. Don't forget that he has the backing of a powerful faith, and one not known for either benevolence or fairness. If Nirkhas wanted to claim Lanie, there is a good chance his church would back him, and I don't think they'd be too worried about a mother's rights. Miranda seems willing to risk this, so I don't think Lanie's wellbeing is her primary motivation. I see Miranda as mercenary and unencumbered by scruples, but not necessarily cruel, despite the implied threat that Lanie is in for a good beating after the encounter.

Miranda lore introduced by BG1 Gavin: she and Gavin were lovers, Miranda either has no love of Gavin or is unsatisfied with the love of only one man, Gavin no longer loves Miranda, Lanie thinks Gavin is her biological father, Miranda is not the best parent, Miranda makes provison with neighbor Borland and his wife to care for Lanie during her frequent absences.

With that in mind, I don't think she's going to countenance selling Lanie to slavers. Because of the way the scene plays out, it will be impossible for the PC to talk to Miranda after the encounter in the Temple district anyway, but if it were possible, I don't think she'd do it. She wants what's best for herself, primarily, but she also wants what's best for Lanie.

And that's all I'll say about it right now.

I'm going to move this part of the thread, because there really should be a BG2 suggestions thread.

Oh, there isn't any doubt that the premeditated murder of an innocent child for selfish reasons *should* make a paladin fall (ranger's a little closer to the grey area, though). I think I could look to the hell trials, perhaps for inspiration, should I decide to implement this.

If a paladin's decision to sacrifice a partymember to avoid losing a stat point would make a paladin fall (in an unmodified game), then I would feel a lot better about forcing the fall after hiring the assassin.

But thanks for the feedback, both BigRob and Guest. I need to think some more about it. It would certainly mean some changes to a certain ToB encounter.

I'd prefer to see this in BG2, but since there's no BG2 forum yet, I'll post it here. (I think it is possible to do it in BG1, as well, but since PC doesn't actually get to see where Lanie lives...)

 

It's quite a nasty deed, but since PC has an option to do a Very Nasty Thing to Gavin(see the thread with the green icon for spoilers) in BG1 already, here we go: "Lanie's Murder".

 

PC could pay someone to kill the girl. The most probable reason is jealousy(so she wouldn't have to compete, etc, etc), but there could be an "Imprison Keldorn's wife so he doesn't leave the party/Kill Gavin's brat so he doesn't leave the party" reason. (Also, an excellent way to show Gavin that, while he wouldn't befriend assassins, PC of every class could do even worse things. Like hiring assassins). There's a Thief Guild around, PC can even become a guildmaster(and one of his thieves specializes in assasinations). It's easy enough to arrange these things out of the party's earshot. Gavin may never find out... or he may leave the party... or... or what will he do?

 

That's a Very Wicked Thing for BG2 for you.

 

 

Wow that's mean. But I've kind of wondered like that sometimes myself. I've wanted to get rid of Lanie so she won't take all Gavin's attention. But really would a good pc do such a thing? He won't love a netral or evil one at all so how could such a thing work, not that I don't want a chance to try it.

I just had a thought that if the pc were pregnant or even thought she was she may really worry or get mad about the other daughter. All this is up to berelinde of course but the thoughts that come to mind are really possible for a woman to feel or want to do.

Ooh, that is nicely evil. I can definitely say that I'll think about it.

This is an unmistakably evil action, and if Gavin ever found out, he would be devastated by the PC's betrayal. It would most certainly end the romance. If I included it, I'd definitely give him the chance to find out about it, possibly because he would insist on finding her killers. I'd like to introduce a random element there, sometimes he'd find out, sometimes he wouldn't.

I don't shy away from allowing the PC to roleplay evil, nor do I rule it out for a good PC. Roleplaying is all about choices, and it's up to the player to make those decisions.

I can even picture the scene: a shadowy figure observes a certain exchange involving Lanie, then slips away. After this exchange, Gavin leaves the party temporarily. If the PC decides to pass the time by resting somewhere, the figure would approach her with the offer.

No, there will be no pregnancy in any mod I write, except possibly as part of the epilogue, should the PC say she wants kids. I don't know how I feel about allowing the PC to lie to Gavin about a pregnancy, though. That might be fair game, and yet another way a PC might do something evil to Gavin.

Hiring an assassin to kill Lanie should definitely make a paladin fall, but I would be reluctant to code that unless there are other examples where a single monstrous act results in a paladin's fall.

 

I think we had forum problems yesterday, but I don't remember seeing any posts like you describe...

There weren't any. It was a subtle bump.

Not that there's anything wrong with bumping a thread that interests you, of course!

I fully intend on coding this way from now on. I was only talking about keeping a master list of the variables (%IMOEN_DV%, %JAHEIRA_JOINED%, etc.) open on my text editor so that I can just switch screens, copy and paste as I go. I wasn't actually talking about coding the whole thing one way, then going back and swapping it all out.

In fact, as my ultimate plan includes having a single download work for Tutu, BGT *and* BG2, using cross-platform variables while coding is going to make my life a lot easier.

I have 2 choices when it comes to deciding how to spend my precious modding time. I can write or I can learn weidu-fu. There are people who will always be better than me at coding *anything*. I'll leave them to it.

I see how it all works, and what needs to happen for this all to work out. It only took me 30 seconds to figure out how the %tutu_var% worked, once I understood the basic concept, so I can do it on the fly if I have to. Buy why? Left to my own devices, I'd just go and generate the same list all over again. and copy and paste from that. I may as well just let someone else do the typing.

I'm a chemist by trade. I've got a dozen template lab reports for the testing I do. Sure, I could generate the same report over and over, but then my boss would be paying me to type. My boss seems to feel that would be a waste of money, so I spend most of my day in the lab, and use the templates.

The reason all the NPCs and areas are included is for the convenience of people who want to copy and paste the list, rather than having to type it all out.

I think the logic was that it is easier for the modder to remember the English name of the area. I have to admit that I prefer it.

That's funny. I've been RP'ing clerics for 30 years, PnP and CRPG, and there are times I've wondered if they aren't overpowered. I guess it's how you play.

It's in progress.

I've got other projects that take priority at the moment, but they all have relatively short deadlines, so I hope to be able to move to BG2 soon.

Thanks for the interest.

The one time I tried it with a male cleric PC, it didn't work. He even was compassionate during the friendtalks. I'd really like it to work, because I don't want to have to include Cernd or Aerie in my party.

The magnitude of recoding a separate BG1 NPC Project for vanilla BG, where the coding involved is a series of workarounds, makes me feel faint.

Even if such a thing were possible, the effort involved would be mind boggling, and the target audience very small.

And who would draw the line about what was edited out? Most of the principal writers are no longer on the project, and I doubt anyone would be comfortable making these hard decisions on their behalf.

So, while it would be nice to please those with BG1 vanilla installations, I don't really anticipate a workable solution that would satisfy anyone.

Thanks! Already, you've made my life easier.

Can we please have this stickied? Pretty please?

It would involve changing a travel trigger from the FAI, at the very least. I'm a dialogue gal. I don't know a darned thing about that, but I know there are people that do. I'd like to take this offline, if you don't mind. Maybe there's a way to make it happen.