Staying Alive!

[FredSRichardson]

Co8 is still alive and modding, new stuff is constantly being added, plus there is an interesting TC.

Ooh, ooh, do tell, what's the TC?

[cewander]

Just some alternatives I thought of:

 

As someone else said a couple of days ago, keep the conversion as one mod, and the balancing as annother mod.

 

Alter the difficulty settings, as there should be possible ot have "more or less" monsters upon difficulty settings, becose of IWD2's XP system, this actually becomes viable as opposed to IWD1 where putting it on the hardest made you levelup twise as fast (Thus easier in the long run).

 

Let for example Hrotgar give you a "training session" if you wanted to at the absolute start of the game (first chat before you get to do anything else) that give each charactter 1000 pr 3000 xp to get a head start for those that find it difficult.

 

Adjust the "luck" by difficulty setting if possible ?

 

Give all characters option of buying better armor and shields easier (helps alot against arrows with plate and large/tower shields etc).

EDIT: Also that robe that gives bonus AC vs missles! (Adventurer robe?)

 

Slap a bunch of various potions and scrolls of things like web, entangle, sleep etc around so it is easier to deal with the hordes. Put lots of them in the random item tables etc. Lots of flaming potions and what not.

 

I could probablly think of a couple of others as well give time, that does not alter the rules per say.

 

Also ToEE is really the most awesome combat in any cRPG I have ever played, love the game (Heck this made me want to play it again!), Also some of the graphics I have enjoyed the most in a cRPG game. Co8 have done a fabolous job with it, all thumbs up! Also looking greatly forward to the Keep on the Borderland (Think I have the 2E modul lying around somewhere, and also enjoyed the novel-book version of it!).

 

Tata!

[FredSRichardson]

Keep on the Borderlands, yes, I was just reading about that. I know very little about the campaign, but it sounds like an interesting and ambitious mod. I take it it's not a TC in the usual sense (i.e. from one game to another) but actually a bottom up implementation of a PnP campaign.

 

Your suggested modifications sound like they could be interesting. I don't think it would be too difficult to add in those changes, but it would definitely be something to do later once there's something worthwhile in place. Just getting things to work without any mods is going to be difficult enough I think

 

One problem with the difficulty level is that it's actually scripted in IWD1, so the conversion carries over a lot of the machinery for it. I doubt its compatible with the way IWD2 handles difficulty level. I'd prefer to shelf this issue as it's a tough one. Maybe something obvious will come up later.

 

I'm very much in favor of adding flags for how people want to do the conversion. For example, the user could specify that they don't want early creatures to be nerfed with negative luck and damage reduction. There are other decisions I've had to make that the user might want to tweak as well.

[cewander]

Keep on the Borderlands, yes, I was just reading about that. I know very little about the campaign, but it sounds like an interesting and ambitious mod. I take it it's not a TC in the usual sense (i.e. from one game to another) but actually a bottom up implementation of a PnP campaign.

 

Just to try to sound smart! But total convertion is any mod that alters the entire story/campaign in a game. So recreating an entire new game within an existing one is just as much a Total Convertion as moving one game into another.

 

That said, I've been wanting to play Baldurs Gate 1 etc in ToEE's engine as well But just imagine converting those maps *Shudders*

[FredSRichardson]

Keep on the Borderlands, yes, I was just reading about that. I know very little about the campaign, but it sounds like an interesting and ambitious mod. I take it it's not a TC in the usual sense (i.e. from one game to another) but actually a bottom up implementation of a PnP campaign.

 

Just to try to sound smart! But total convertion is any mod that alters the entire story/campaign in a game. So recreating an entire new game within an existing one is just as much a Total Convertion as moving one game into another.

 

That said, I've been wanting to play Baldurs Gate 1 etc in ToEE's engine as well But just imagine converting those maps *Shudders*

Yes, the first time I played ToEE (well, besides cursing the game for all it's bugs...co8 deserves a medal for making the game playable) I was thinking "wow, someone needs to port BG2 to the ToEE engine!"

 

I still wonder if it could be done, though I can't imagine doing it. BG2 is in some ways a more complex game.

[cewander]

I still wonder if it could be done, though I can't imagine doing it. BG2 is in some ways a more complex game.

 

Remember that all the maps in ToEE uses 2D images, so those need to be converted manually. All the rest of the graphic is 3D. So just adding a BG1/BG2 map over would cause some really interesting problems with size and angle differences etc. Fancy redrawing the BG1/2 maps by hand to get them right for ToEE ? I sure don't

 

Also regarding to the difficulty, I know there are alot of people that have fun with playing through iwd2 on Heart of Fury from level 1, and think it is to easy. So perhaps leaving it as "though as nails" as it is now, for at least those harder difficulties might be a nice "feature"

 

If it is as hard as you make it sound like, then I'm looking even more forward to this!

[FredSRichardson]

I still wonder if it could be done, though I can't imagine doing it. BG2 is in some ways a more complex game.

 

Remember that all the maps in ToEE uses 2D images, so those need to be converted manually. All the rest of the graphic is 3D. So just adding a BG1/BG2 map over would cause some really interesting problems with size and angle differences etc. Fancy redrawing the BG1/2 maps by hand to get them right for ToEE ? I sure don't

 

Also regarding to the difficulty, I know there are alot of people that have fun with playing through iwd2 on Heart of Fury from level 1, and think it is to easy. So perhaps leaving it as "though as nails" as it is now, for at least those harder difficulties might be a nice "feature"

 

If it is as hard as you make it sound like, then I'm looking even more forward to this!

 

Right, I guess without some 3D information there's no real way of changing the viewing angle (without making it look odd).

 

I have to say that IWD2 is now not really difficult so much as imbalanced. I've actually toned it down a lot so that it's not insane early on, but now I think it's getting to easy at about 4th level.

 

I'll try to make it so the user can decide to some extent. I could offer different versions of rule files for hard and soft settings

[cewander]

It seems like bows are really tough to deal with early on. A few shots take out a party member.

 

This is a repeater in entire Infinity engine (BG1/IWD1 especially), basically you don't use any of the penalties for shooting in the engine (There should be various penalties for shooting into combat and for range etc), so you hit more, and especially bows with their TWO attacks in base (before warrior levels or specialisation, not to mention longbow ot heavens forbid composite longbow!) and you have a weapon that will pretty much autokill most low hitpoint enemies/players.

 

BG1 you could complete near entire game with nothing but dedicated archers (Character, Kivan, Coran, and Imoen filled up both mage/thief, and Yeslick is handy with a sling). The same thing is obvious in IWD1, though it get's a bit limited later in the game (Dragons Eye for eks, trolls, very though Yuan-ti etc, later on the various zombies that can only be hurt by magic etc).

 

IWD2 already fixes alot of this by not letting bow get 2 attacks, and that multiple attacks doesn't use the same attackbonus/Thac0, and that composite longbow isn't quite as nasty, also weapon specialisation is changed and weakened fairly much. Also, goblins should have a strength score of 8 iirc, which should already give -1 to all damage, including bows, but excludding crossbows.

 

Some of the suggestions I made in one of my previous posts should also be able to deal with this one, without making large changes into the rules proper. (From top of my head, difficulty affect luck, give access to more anti missle equipments like plate, heavy shield, adventurers robe etc earlier). You could also remove the weapon proficiency for bow on goblins, that would give them a -4 to hit, this can be usefull with converting goblins from iwd1 into for example cleric levels that does not have martial weapon prof bow.

 

Wee, nice to be ranting a bit again.

 

Unfortunately, starting the *whole* party on a higher level is not really advantageous under IWD2 (which I assume be the same for IWD1-TUTU). What happens is the game scales experience it grants based on the average party level, so if you start on level 3, you might survive the initial encounter, but have a problem slightly down the road.

 

The XP and CR system is an interesting one, but even if you start with a higher level, you don't get "less" experience (counting the start XP) than if you did not. At level 4 and outward you will be reciving slightlly less XP per kill, but it is nothing to noticable really. You will still reach th next levels to the same max limit. So if you start as level 1 or level 3, and sit spawn camping on the skelettons and hadows respawning points, you will reach the same level before you start reciving no experience. But with the start at level 3, you will be 3000 XP ahead to get there. Don't read more into the CR/XP system than there really is

 

About level 7-10 somewhere it should have evened itself out so much that you wouldnt have noticed much of a difference if you started at level 1 or 3.

 

Also, the way it count's your levels is idiotic and wrong, I really wish they stuck to the 3E way of splitting XP, calculating XP for each character individually per CR of opponents compared to their own level, and then divided on number of party members. That would have made the dumb muling zero efficiency.

 

 

Also, just installed IWD1 with HoW and TotLM, and started a new group. And desided to write up some XP/Levels for you, since you asked for it earlier somewhere.

 

I ran a full 6 man group, been ages since last time I did that, as I generally don't like playing with that many characters. I wronte up the XP I had averagelly on each character as I was done with whatever map I was on, so for example the Easthaven XP is what I had right as I left Easthaven:

 

							Fighter	Cleric	Thief	Mage
Easthaven	2500xp each	15000 total party	2	2	3	2
Avalance	3200xp each	19200 total party	2	3	3	2
Kuldahar	3900xp each	23400 total party	2	3	3	2
Vale-Cave1	4500xp each	27000 total party	3	3	3	2
Vale-Cave2	6300xp each	37800 total party	3	4	4	3
Vale-Cave3	7000xp each	42000 total party	3	4	4	3
Vale-Cave4	8500xp each	51000 total party	4	4	4	3

 

At the moment I am standing right in front of the last cave, the one that leads to Kresslack's Tomb, and I have beaten up everything in the valley, including all the yeti's even inside the cave. I also did all the quests (at least that I can remember, which should be most) in Easthaven before leaving. From memory most classes should make at least another level in the last tomb, some probablly two. I'll continue this tomorrow to finish the tomb!

[FredSRichardson]

Hi Cewander,

 

Thank you for the level break down. I think my IWD2 party is about 1 level behind yours. But I think I can fix this by adjusting the CR levels a bit to match IWD1 more closely. I guess I don't fully understand the IWD2 XP system.

 

I think your idea for dealing with the bows has a lot of merit, but I might let someone else try coding this. One approach is to start the party off with more gold and access to better armor etc. Gain level 2 early might also be good because that's essentially twice the HP per party member. I'll check and see if the Goblins have bow proficiency.

 

I also think this should be an option and not the default since it's not staying very close to the original game (on the other hand, staying close to the original game may not be a great idea, perhaps we should just make sure this is fun to play ).

 

IWD2 as I said gives the initial Goblins negative luck (-3 I think), and the bows are nerfed by -4 damage. The -3 luck I believe applies to both to-hit and damage rolls. So even when they manage to hit, the damage is at most 1 or 2 points. It's an odd design choice, but I guess if you have party member with 4 HP, you'd like them to be able to take one or two arrows before being offed. I noticed that the special goblin bows don't allow for a strength bonus, so unfortunately the strength penalty doesn't apply.

 

One solution would be to give the Goblins inferior weapons (blunt arrows, crude bows both with lower damage and attack) and as you said get rid of proficiency. Also checking the strength bonus flag might work if they have 8 strength. I like this idea because it remains closer to the original game and a bit more realistic.

 

I'm not sure what the best solution is. Using IWD2 Goblin's stays close to the IWD2 design choices, but that might not be the best way to go.

[cewander]

I noticed that the special goblin bows don't allow for a strength bonus, so unfortunately the strength penalty doesn't apply.

 

In the 2E games (BG1/2/IWD1) strength did not aply to bows (at least to my knowledge), in 3E strength should always aply when you have a negative bonus (strength 8 or less) and never aply if you have positive bonus (strength 12 or more) unless you used a composite bow. Not fully certain how this is implemented in IWD2.

 

Alternayivelly give them slings, it does only 1D4 damage, and always aplies strength bonus. And just take away their weapon proficiency for sling (all classes comes with this one though). You would have goblins with -4 to attack, deald 1D4-1 blunt damage. If they're considered level 1 warrior they should have base attack +1 (warrior) and +1 or +2 from dexterity with -4 for lack of proficiency.

 

Now back to say hello to my good old pall Kresslack, I think he's already put over the tea, so I better hurry with the bisquits!

 

EDIT: more xp as I just finished chapter 1.

 

Place		XPeach	XPtotal	Fighter	Cleric	Thief	Mage
Easthaven	2500	15000	2	2	3	2
Avalance	3200	19200	2	3	3	2
Kuldahar	3900	23400	2	3	3	2
Vale-Cave1	4500	27000	3	3	3	2
Vale-Cave2	6300	37800	3	4	4	3
Vale-Cave3	7000	42000	3	4	4	3
Vale-Cave4	8500	51000	4	4	4	3
Vale-Cave5	19000	114000	5	4	5	4	
Temple-F-God	26000	156000	5	5	6	5

 

And that is end of chapter 1, I'll make similar inchapter 2 when I go through it (per level-cave).

 

I've run half my characters as multiclasses, so not gotten all the same levels myself, group that I'm using:

 

Thagdarf: Dwarf, male, LG, Fighter/Cleric, hammer, sling

Hrif: Dwarf, male, LG, Fighter, axe, sling

Garron: Human, male, NG, Ranger, bow, great sword

Kern: Human, male, LN, Fighter2 dual Thief, Bow, Large sword

Gnimsh: Gnome, male, TN, Cleric/Illusionist, club, sling

Tamj: Human, female, CN, Bard, Bow, Dagger

 

In that marching order. XP get's split slightly in favour of the front character, so I compare Hrif and Tamj (order 2 and 6) and average the XP between them to get the numbers.

[FredSRichardson]

I like the slings idea. But again this would be an optional install.

 

Somehow I have to decide what it means to "stay close to the original". I'd like to add Tactics a bit later, but I can tell that IWD1 doesn't come close to IWD2 in terms of battle strategy. It does have a more "immersive" story line thought

 

I'll compare your levels to my own. I have a very detailed set of saves, but my party is quite different (something like fighter, fighter, cleric, rogue, bard, mage).

[cewander]

Somehow I have to decide what it means to "stay close to the original". I'd like to add Tactics a bit later, but I can tell that IWD1 doesn't come close to IWD2 in terms of battle strategy. It does have a more "immersive" story line thought

 

Installing...

 

Option 1: Converted completelly correct from IWD1 with no laterations whatsoever.

Option 2: Converted and edited to match as identical to how it appeared in IWD1 as possible

Option 3: Converted and edited to make it better balanced and more playable

 

Choose 1,2 or 3:

 

 

Yes, I realise that might be a bit into the future yet, I'd say all three is as right as they are all wrong. Toss a coin.

 

I'll compare your levels to my own. I have a very detailed set of saves, but my party is quite different (something like fighter, fighter, cleric, rogue, bard, mage).

 

Remember the difference between 2E and 3E, for one thing, 2E have different XP requirement to level up on each different class (that's the reason I wrote up separate levels for 4 different classes). 3E (thankfully) removed that and set all classes to same XP for next level. Also 3E XP requirement for levelup is much lower than 2E, so directlly comparing XP doesn't work, especially the longer into the game you get. Example, if I had soloed this game and got all the XP mentioned above for one character in 2E he would barelly be 7-9th level, The same XP on a 3E character is 15+ levels.

 

I'd say, use fighter levels as a decent indication to what level they should be for the parts I've run through. Later in the game I'd have used mage as hes XP table speeds up, and the warrior tables ebbs of to become the slowest in the game.

 

Also, naturally our parties will seem different, one is made in 2E and the other in 3E

[FredSRichardson]

Yes, I think ultimately I'd like to have all options available. Ideally I'll get some help in balancing the game

 

It's good to keep track of ideas for the future now. These tend to get lost, and it's always worth adding them when they seem most interesting. People can always disagree, and they can change the options to suit them.

 

The party I was mentioning was for IWD1, so I have the same XP slide for Fighter/Thief/Mage. I thought I'd do something like this for the conversion:

 

[0] set CRE1 = IWD1 CRE to convert

[1] set partyxp_1 = <total xp for IWD1 party in ARE or before pwning CRE1>

[2] set crexp_1 = <xp CRE1>

[3] set partylvl = GetIWD1AvgParyLevel(partyxp_1)

[4] set partylvl_inc = GetIWD1PartyLevelIncrement(partylvl, crexp_1)

[5] set cr_2 = GetIWD2ChallengeRating(partylevel, partylevel_inc)

 

Something like that, the devil is in what these routines actually do.

 

GetIWD1AvgParyLevel() should return the average party level for the total amount of XP given a typical party.

 

GetIWD1PartyLevelIncrement() should return the percentage closer the party gets to the next level after the additional XP from killing the CRE.

 

GetIWD2ChallengeRating() should return the challenge rating corresponding to the percentage closer to the next level the party should get after killing the CRE.