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Blackguard kit for Paladins?

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Guest Guest

I just skimmed through the first page on the overview and wondered, since you're adding lots more gods to the game and they affect the spells etc that Paladins etc get, will we be getting a Black Guard kit or something similar (like the prestige class?) seeing as Paladins can't be evil in DnD.

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Guest: Normally you can't have paladin kits for evil characters, since your character would automatically fall and lose all their abilities. However, I think I may know a way to make it so they don't.


If that doesn't work, the blackguard would have to be a cleric kit with a reduced spell count, etc. It could still be available via the paladin kit menu though.



Ellderon: nice kit, though I'll need to see the full list of disadvantages before I can comment further :groucho:. One slight problem: we've decided not to have multiple kits with the same name as it could get confusing, and as I'm sure you know, there's already an avenger kit for druids. How about calling it the 'vindicator' instead?

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Guest Guest

Here is the Blackguard as it is in NWN (taken from the SoU site and edited a bit to be easier to read), I dunno if it's the same as PNP or if it's in 2nd Edition since I've never played DnD.




The blackguard epitomizes evil. He is nothing short of a mortal fiend. The quintessential black knight, this villain carries a reputation of the foulest sort that is very well deserved. Consorting with demons and devils serving dark deities, the blackguard is hated and feared by all. Some people call these villains anti-paladins due to their completely evil nature. Their black hearts revel only in darkness.




To qualify to become a blackguard, a character must fulfill all of the following criteria:


    * Alignment: Any evil

    * Base Attack: +6

    * Skill: Hide 5 Ranks

    * Feats: Cleave



Blackguard Special and Spell-Like Abilities


Each class has a range of abilities that make it substantially different from the other classes. These abilities are an integral part of your character’s class, and mastering them will aid you.


The following are class features of the blackguard prestige class.


Hit Die: d10

Skill Points at Each Level: 2 + Int Bonus

Proficiencies: All simple and martial weapons and all armor and shields.


Level 2:


    * Smite Good - Add Char modifier to attack roll.

    * Dark Blessing - Add Char modifier to saving throws.

    * Bull's Strength - The target creature's strength is increased by 1d4+1.


Level 3:


    * Turn Undead - make undead flee.

    * Create Undead - summons an undead ally.


Level 4:


    * Sneak Attack - sneak attack +1d6


Level 5:


    * Summon Fiend - summons a fiendish ally.


Level 6:


    * Inflict Serious Wounds - If the caster succeeds in striking an opponent with a touch attack, the target suffers 3d8 points of damage, + 1 point per caster level to a maximum of +15.


Level 7:


    * Contagion - The target creature is struck down with one of the following debilitating diseases, randomly chosen: Blinding Sickness, Cackle Fever, Mind Fire, Red Ache, Shakes, or Slimy Doom.

    * Sneak Attack - sneak attack +2d6


Level 8:


    * Inflict Critical Wounds - If the caster succeeds in striking an opponent with a touch attack, the target suffers 4d8 points of damage, + 1 point per caster level to a maximum of +20.


Level 10:


    * Sneak Attack - sneak attack +3d6




Class Skills:


    * Concentration

    * Heal

    * Persuade

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I'd definitely like to have some sort of Blackguard kit - if we can prevent a Paladin falling then we could do it through that, else we could have it as a Fighter kit with some innates or something, or a Cleric.


The NWN kit is a little different from the pnp version, but close in ideals. :groucho:

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That is 3rd edition blackguard and can't be implemented likle that (too powerfull compared to most classes and the standard pally).

In the 3rd edition the normal pally got some huge improvements... (Devine health, devine grace, Devine defense...Devine Might(liked this one))..



Anyway...NIGHTMARE, your comment on the Holy Aveger and Blackguard?


EDIT: + your comment on my changed racial modifiers/maximums.. I wanted to make the advantages/disadvantages more apparent

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Guest Tancred

Ages ago, when I was really enjoying evil, a lot of people commented that my use of the Anti-Paladin kit was really a 'soft option'. So I tried a custom made Assassin/Cleric, but it just didn't fit. So I gutted it out using NI (not knowing how to edit WEIDU) and used some package or other to make some custom spells.


IIRC - and that file was lost a long time ago - I used a Paladin kit that could only be of Evil alignment, and edited the two spell effects that controlled loss of ability to have a zero chance of working. To my delight this meant I was able to Rebuke Undead and use Evil cleric spells.


I added in three special abilities:


Aura of Despair: a low-power Greater Malison, centred on the Blackguard, one use per 5 levels


Poison Weapon: just like the Assassin! One every 4 levels.


Detect Good: this one really needed the Oversight mod. One per level.


In the end I gave up on it as, no matter how many times I replaced every entry of the words 'Fallen Paladin' with 'Blackguard' in dialog.tlk, somehow my character always ended up as a Fallen Paladin.


On reflection - perhaps the Blackguard should be a modification of the Stalker kit from the Ranger set? That would allow the Blackguard to sneak and backstab, and would allow you to trade in some not-entirely-appropriate HLAs for some sneakier rogue ones.

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In the end I gave up on it as, no matter how many times I replaced every entry of the words 'Fallen Paladin' with 'Blackguard' in dialog.tlk, somehow my character always ended up as a Fallen Paladin.

IIRC, there's a thread on teambg about the anti-paladin added by TDD that discusses this problem (i'm working from memory here, obviously...)


apparently the anti-paladin has a script that *adds* reputation any time the anti-paladin commits evil acts, because losing rep - and hence becoming fallen - is hardcoded into the .exe, and so without such a script, any paladin kit - even an evil one - would become fallen upon losing (too much) reputation.


so tancred's suggestion - of making a 'paladin' kit out of a non-paladin fighter (i'd suggest *not* a ranger, as they fall as well) - is a good one, unless yr going to add the anti-paladin's reverse-reputation script to any new evil paladin kit.

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I don't think this is quite so hard-coded as most people seem to think. I'm pretty sure I know a very simple way to stop it happening.


The downside is that I'll have to write a script to make good paladins fall for committing evil acts, but the upside is I'll be able to have a similar script to make blackguards (and any other evil paladin kits) fall for committing good acts :).

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Back to Blackguards - anyone got any suggestions? I had thought perhaps it could be done as a Fighter kit. Advantages could be a small Backstab modifier, and use of some spells like Animate Dead (and I think there's something like Hold Undead or Command Undead too?), while disadvantages could be only being able to attain specialism (2 stars) in weapons, like a Paladin.


Any other thoughts?

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I know that you can get Harm in BG2, but can you get the Inflict Wounds spells?

If not, would giving him Harm at a high level be too overpowered?

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Perhaps have opposite abilities to that of a paladin might work best.


1.) Rather than 'lay on hands', he can have 'withering touch' (does as much damage per level as lay on hands heals).

2.) Rather than 'protection from evil', he can have a 'protection from good' spell (it protects against enemy summoned celestials rather than fiends, as the 'protection from evil' spell).

3.) Rather than dispel magic, he might have some sort of a curse spell (maybe it inflicts disease).

4.) As a HLA, he would have 'summon fallen deva' rather than 'summon deva'.

5.) Rather than being immune to disease, he can cast the spell 'cause disease' once per day (when he reached the appropriate level)


That's what I have for ideas right now.



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ERm...first I think it would be better to summon a demon rather than a falen Deva..


Second I think that that a Blackguard should be marginally weaker than a palyl (yes..good is better mentality), but that might not be needed, snce palyl have great kick-ass kits..

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