Viconia vs Shar-Teel

[Theodur]

Well, Theodur, if you don't like the portrait for Shar-Teel from BG1, you could always nick the one they are using for the Shar-Teel mod for BG2, it's better looking and has a bit of a Xena quality to it.

I remember that pic. Curiously, who hosts this mod nowadays? It has disappeared from FWS.

[Theodur]

Also, I see no reason for love to "redeem" anybody.

 

Yet it often does that. Not always, and it's definitely not a 100% safe cure, absolutely not. In some cases, love, passion, are what makes a person to step on the dark path instead.

 

In fiction, yes.

 

In the real world, no. Do some reading on the experience of those in abusive relationships, and those married to alcoholics and victims of addiction. Recovery, when it does occur, requires an internal locus of control. The support of loved ones tends to have a neutral or negative effect on the recovery process, despite the natural wish to believe that this were otherwise.

I don't agree with you. Abuse in relationship, alcoholism, addiction to drugs are only a few forms of "Evil" and I agree that in these cases love cannot help at all, especially in case of alcoholism and drugs. But who of the involved NPC's need to be cured of alcoholism, drug addiction or something like that? None. So, I don't quite understand your point.

 

Their evil is different in the core, a different mindset and philosophy of life. It can be influenced via emotions, such as love. Not always, but it can be done.

[Theodur]

Yes, I also noticed that. However, if we're looking for a good candidate for an evil male PC to romance, I would pick neither Shar, nor Viconia. I would go for Safana (yes, I realize what her Czarina says about that). To me, while she is supposedly neutral, I think she has definite leanings towards evil. She would make a great evil romance, plus she does have better looks than Shar. Ughh.

I am afraid that Kiki's position on Safana's romance is exactly opposite to yours, Theodur. She thinks that the only possibility for romance comes through Safana's quest, which makes her a deper character (and my impression was that a "goodier" one as well); I also doubt that Kiki views Safana as at all evil - at least seeing her writing for Safana - mercenary - yes, non-commital and selfish, but not evil.

 

I don't claim to be an expert on Safana, and I have read only a little of Kiki's writing, but... you know, those qualities that you named, I also find borderline evil. I mean - a non-commital mercenary? Heh. There is nothing more dangerous than that, as is her callous disregard for the lives of her companions when she asks to explore the caves without warning about the dangerous creatures that defend them. That is... pretty close to the evil side, in my book - selfishness in her line of work is a quality more associable with evil. She is a threat to her comrades, more so than some of the evil NPC's who at least have some code of honour and sense of camaraderie.

 

Again, I'd love to hear how Kiki would imagine this romance to go. Would she have Safana truly fall in love with the PC, or would she have her play the PC for a fool and after she has cleaned his pockets, Safana would disappear with the party's treasure? I'd prefer the second option, as it fits closer my perception of Safana being closer to the evil side of neutrality.

[BobTokyo]

Also, I see no reason for love to "redeem" anybody.

 

Yet it often does that. Not always, and it's definitely not a 100% safe cure, absolutely not. In some cases, love, passion, are what makes a person to step on the dark path instead.

 

In fiction, yes.

 

In the real world, no. Do some reading on the experience of those in abusive relationships, and those married to alcoholics and victims of addiction. Recovery, when it does occur, requires an internal locus of control. The support of loved ones tends to have a neutral or negative effect on the recovery process, despite the natural wish to believe that this were otherwise.

I don't agree with you. Abuse in relationship, alcoholism, addiction to drugs are only a few forms of "Evil" and I agree that in these cases love cannot help at all, especially in case of alcoholism and drugs. But who of the involved NPC's need to be cured of alcoholism, drug addiction or something like that? None. So, I don't quite understand your point.

 

Their evil is different in the core, a different mindset and philosophy of life. It can be influenced via emotions, such as love. Not always, but it can be done.

Theodur,

 

I respect your right to disagree. Personally, I am strongly of the opinion that people rarely change for the better due to outside influence. This opinion has been shaped by personal experience, profesional experience, and academic exploration on both the undergraduate and graduate levels. Those who are violent tend to remain violent, those who tend towards criminal behavior tend to continue to pursue that behavior, regardless of the intervention of loved ones.

 

In fantasy and pop psychology the answer will be that love redeems; in life, that is very rarely true.

 

That, for what it is worth, is my point.

[Guest Guest]

I remember that pic. Curiously, who hosts this mod nowadays? It has disappeared from FWS.

No idea, I thought that mod was still being hosted there. Ah well.

[julwise]

On this whole subject of redemption, change comes from within. No matter how much you love someone it can't make you change unless you decide to change and put in the hard work required to change. Love can be a motivating or inspirational force but it's not enough to actually cause someone to change. You have to want to be better for yourself, not someone else. I haven't looked into it on a professional level but this is definately what i've gleaned from my personal experiences.

[Domi]

Uhm... saw someone browsing this thread, and am sort of curious - have anyone seen new sequence of male PC talks with Shar-Teel? Did they work for you? Are you interested in seeing the contination of this relationship developped?