Spell Thrust & Minor Globe of Inv.

[Demivrgvs]

And why shouldn't we work on this way?

I'm at lost, are you saying you want (M)GoI to repel low-level antimagic, but since it kinda goes against the rules you need a justification to do so?

No, I was saying I'm not sure it's against the rules, as Secret Word too isn't able to bypass GoI in an unmodded game. Anyway, I guess I have to just change both spells to have power level 5, so they'll be able to remove MGoI and GoI respectively.

 

Another huge weirdness which I don't like is that a Spell Thrust casted on a character affected by uber powerful spell protections (e.g. Spelltrap) will ignore such powerful protections and remove any 5th level or lower protection. Thus if the caster wants to dispel a Spell Immunity this spell ends up being much better than any other spell removal spell of higher level. Isn't it ridiculous?

 

Well, people (ok, me) usually use globes to defend against hostile Skull Traps, Slow, Confusion, Malison and friendly Web, Fireballs, Skull Traps. Anything else either is used far less often (I think) or isn't that hindering. And MGoI takes care of the most in the list, leaving GoI not much outshining it's lesser counterpart.

The main advantages of GoI over its lesser version are:

- the immunity to Confusion, and Malison. Both spells are highly effective and SCS uses them quite often.

- cannot be removed by Spell Thrust. Though any other spell protection under the globe is removed (which is ridiculous imo)

 

It's a bit sad it can't have immunity to Dispel/Remove Magic - I added that in my game and it proved to be more AI exploiting than I'd expect.

That would make the globes really overpowered imo, even more than SI.

 

 

Anyway, I probably just don't like BG spell protection/removal system. Spells like Spell Deflection/Turning are great in PnP, but because of low level removals like Spell Thrust and Secret Word (both don't exist in PnP) are incredibly less effective than they should imo.

 

Note: Breach will be absorbed/reflected by Spell Deflection/Turning as per SCS. I missed this feature on my last version, and it's actually a cool way to make these spells much more interesting.

[Demivrgvs]

The more I look into it the more I don't like the behaviour.

 

If we want Spell Thrust and Secret Word bypass MGoI and GoI than for consistency they should affect liches. Else the behaviour doesn't make sense at all.

 

What SCS does to Breach isn't "issue fre". It changes the secondary type to let it be absorbed/reflected by Spell Deflection/Turning, but to make it affect liches and rakshasas DavidW set its power level to 9, which means this spell actually bypass Minor Spell Deflection/Turning (I suppose it wasn't intended), and almost dissipate the greater ones in one hit.

[Salk]

If we want Spell Thrust and Secret Word bypass MGoI and GoI than for consistency they should affect liches. Else the behaviour doesn't make sense at all.

 

Perhaps we should let them do it.

[Ardanis]

Don't touch liches! SAme goes for Breach btw, I set it back to power 5.

[DavidW]

The more I look into it the more I don't like the behaviour.

 

If we want Spell Thrust and Secret Word bypass MGoI and GoI than for consistency they should affect liches. Else the behaviour doesn't make sense at all.

For what it's worth, SCS doesn't modify either spell to go through (M)GoI, and I'm quite happy with them being blocked.

What SCS does to Breach isn't "issue fre". It changes the secondary type to let it be absorbed/reflected by Spell Deflection/Turning, but to make it affect liches and rakshasas DavidW set its power level to 9, which means this spell actually bypass Minor Spell Deflection/Turning (I suppose it wasn't intended), and almost dissipate the greater ones in one hit.

 

Yep, this is unintended behaviour. Setting it to level 0 might be more sensible?

[Ardanis]

Setting it to level 0 might be more sensible?

Except it'll be unaffected by Spell Deflection/Turning, as they can't (and shouldn't for obvious technical reasons) stop zero level effects from getting through.

[Demivrgvs]

If we want Spell Thrust and Secret Word bypass MGoI and GoI than for consistency they should affect liches. Else the behaviour doesn't make sense at all.

For what it's worth, SCS doesn't modify either spell to go through (M)GoI, and I'm quite happy with them being blocked.

Perhaps I haven't been clear I may be fine too if it wasn't for the fact that there's no consistency at all:

- Spell Thrust does bypass MGoI as per description (I think fixpack sets its power level to 4 instead of 3)

- Secret Word is blocked by GoI instead of removing it (its power level is 4)

 

If you ask me I think these spells shouldn't be blocked by spell protections which are supposedly dispelled by formers. And I would have all antimagic attacks bypass liches immunities considering they already bypass magic resistance and all other protections such as SI:Abj.

 

What SCS does to Breach isn't "issue fre". It changes the secondary type to let it be absorbed/reflected by Spell Deflection/Turning, but to make it affect liches and rakshasas DavidW set its power level to 9, which means this spell actually bypass Minor Spell Deflection/Turning (I suppose it wasn't intended), and almost dissipate the greater ones in one hit.

Yep, this is unintended behaviour. Setting it to level 0 might be more sensible?

Not at all, because as Ardanis says then you'd have Breach bypass any spell protection.

 

If you do want to keep this strange behaviour the best sub-optimal solution imo is to set its power level to 7, at least it would be blocked by Minor Spell Deflection/Turning as per your intention.

 

Anyway, you know I don't like this solution at all because it has both consistency issues, and this additional technical issue. Adding a Breach effect to Pierce Shield as per SR is much better imo, and players should deal with the fact that if they want to face liches with a low level party it's their problem.

 

P.S I do played with SR+SCS and managed to fight liches without Breach (with a mid level party), thus yeah, it's doable...very hard, but doable. I'd be curious to know if Ardanis had tried it or if he uses SCS Breach.

[Ardanis]

I'd be curious to know if Ardanis had tried it or if he uses SCS Breach.

I never used it against liches and rakshasas, since in my opinion that's wrong to shoot them through with a spell whose level they're immune to. Neither did I use SR's Pierce Shield new feature, btw... But then again I didn't take on liches until I was high enough in level.

 

PS

And I would have all antimagic attacks bypass liches immunities considering they already bypass magic resistance and all other protections such as SI:Abj.

Don't touch liches!

[DavidW]

If we want Spell Thrust and Secret Word bypass MGoI and GoI than for consistency they should affect liches. Else the behaviour doesn't make sense at all.

For what it's worth, SCS doesn't modify either spell to go through (M)GoI, and I'm quite happy with them being blocked.

Perhaps I haven't been clear I may be fine too if it wasn't for the fact that there's no consistency at all:

- Spell Thrust does bypass MGoI as per description (I think fixpack sets its power level to 4 instead of 3)

- Secret Word is blocked by GoI instead of removing it (its power level is 4)

 

If you ask me I think these spells shouldn't be blocked by spell protections which are supposedly dispelled by formers.

 

I don't really care either way: it's not really in SCS's remit. (Fixpack, I assume, is setting things up for consistency with the manual.)

 

And I would have all antimagic attacks bypass liches immunities considering they already bypass magic resistance and all other protections such as SI:Abj.

I don't really see how you could do this without making them bypass MGoI (but then I guess that doesn't bother you.)

 

 

What SCS does to Breach isn't "issue fre". It changes the secondary type to let it be absorbed/reflected by Spell Deflection/Turning, but to make it affect liches and rakshasas DavidW set its power level to 9, which means this spell actually bypass Minor Spell Deflection/Turning (I suppose it wasn't intended), and almost dissipate the greater ones in one hit.

Yep, this is unintended behaviour. Setting it to level 0 might be more sensible?

Not at all, because as Ardanis says then you'd have Breach bypass any spell protection.

 

If you do want to keep this strange behaviour the best sub-optimal solution imo is to set its power level to 7, at least it would be blocked by Minor Spell Deflection/Turning as per your intention.

One-word objection: Rakshasas.

 

Anyway, you know I don't like this solution at all because it has both consistency issues, and this additional technical issue. Adding a Breach effect to Pierce Shield as per SR is much better imo, and players should deal with the fact that if they want to face liches with a low level party it's their problem.

Since this only affects players, it seems a paradigm example of something where people can just install the component they prefer.

[Demivrgvs]

If we want Spell Thrust and Secret Word bypass MGoI and GoI than for consistency they should affect liches. Else the behaviour doesn't make sense at all.

For what it's worth, SCS doesn't modify either spell to go through (M)GoI, and I'm quite happy with them being blocked.

Perhaps I haven't been clear I may be fine too if it wasn't for the fact that there's no consistency at all:

- Spell Thrust does bypass MGoI as per description (I think fixpack sets its power level to 4 instead of 3)

- Secret Word is blocked by GoI instead of removing it (its power level is 4)

 

If you ask me I think these spells shouldn't be blocked by spell protections which are supposedly dispelled by formers.

I don't really care either way: it's not really in SCS's remit. (Fixpack, I assume, is setting things up for consistency with the manual.)

Yeah, fixpack fixed Spell Thrust inconsistency but left Secret Word one.

 

Now, we either change the description of Spell Thrust/Secret Word to specify that they remove 5th/7th spell protections with the exception of MGoI/GoI (for whatever reason) or we fix the spells to work as per description (where it's stated that they tear down MGoI and GoI respectively).

 

 

And I would have all antimagic attacks bypass liches immunities considering they already bypass magic resistance and all other protections such as SI:Abj.

I don't really see how you could do this without making them bypass MGoI (but then I guess that doesn't bother you.)

Actually, that's exactly what I'm saying.

 

 

What SCS does to Breach isn't "issue fre". It changes the secondary type to let it be absorbed/reflected by Spell Deflection/Turning, but to make it affect liches and rakshasas DavidW set its power level to 9, which means this spell actually bypass Minor Spell Deflection/Turning (I suppose it wasn't intended), and almost dissipate the greater ones in one hit.

Yep, this is unintended behaviour. Setting it to level 0 might be more sensible?

Not at all, because as Ardanis says then you'd have Breach bypass any spell protection.

 

If you do want to keep this strange behaviour the best sub-optimal solution imo is to set its power level to 7, at least it would be blocked by Minor Spell Deflection/Turning as per your intention.

One-word objection: Rakshasas.

Then I fear you really can't implement your tweak. If you want Breach to be "blocked" by Minor Spell Deflection/Turning it will surely be blocked by liches and rakshasas immunities (as it should imo).

[DavidW]

(Fixpack, I assume, is setting things up for consistency with the manual.)

Yeah, fixpack fixed Spell Thrust inconsistency but left Secret Word one.

 

Now, we either change the description of Spell Thrust/Secret Word to specify that they remove 5th/7th spell protections with the exception of MGoI/GoI (for whatever reason) or we fix the spells to work as per description (where it's stated that they tear down MGoI and GoI respectively).

Actually, the manual doesn't say that Secret Word tears down GoI.

 

 

 

 

Then I fear you really can't implement your tweak. If you want Breach to be "blocked" by Minor Spell Deflection/Turning it will surely be blocked by liches and rakshasas immunities (as it should imo).

 

Or I can just live with Minor Spell Deflection not deflecting Breach; or I can let Minor Spell Deflection give immunity to Breach and live with the fact that it doesn't burn through the spell.

[Demivrgvs]

(Fixpack, I assume, is setting things up for consistency with the manual.)

Yeah, fixpack fixed Spell Thrust inconsistency but left Secret Word one.

 

Now, we either change the description of Spell Thrust/Secret Word to specify that they remove 5th/7th spell protections with the exception of MGoI/GoI (for whatever reason) or we fix the spells to work as per description (where it's stated that they tear down MGoI and GoI respectively).

Actually, the manual doesn't say that Secret Word tears down GoI.

Well, it says: "When this spell is cast at a target creature it will dispel one spell protection of 8th level or lower. The spells that are affected by this are: Minor Spell Turning, Minor Globe Of Invulnerability, Spell Immunity, Spell Deflection, Spell Turning, and Spell Shield. The target's magic resistance, if any, does not affect this spell." I take it they just forget some spells: Minor Spell Deflection, Globe of Invulnerability and Shield of the Archons. I really can't believe they were intentionally omitted, because SW does dispel two of them, and is blocked by GoI for bad implementation imo.

 

And Spell Thrust's description says: "When this spell is cast at a target creature it will dispel all of the spell protections of 5th level and lower. This includes the following spells: Minor Spell Deflection, Minor Globe of Invulnerability, Spell Immunity, and Minor Spell Turning. The target's magic resistance, if any, does not affect this spell."

 

 

Or I can just live with Minor Spell Deflection not deflecting Breach; or I can let Minor Spell Deflection give immunity to Breach and live with the fact that it doesn't burn through the spell.

Well, I couldn't live with all those inconsistencies, but it's up to you. I do agree with Ardanis here, Breach should work as per description, as a 5th level spell blocked by spell protections and not able to bypass 'immunity to 5th level spells'.

[DavidW]

Or I can just live with Minor Spell Deflection not deflecting Breach; or I can let Minor Spell Deflection give immunity to Breach and live with the fact that it doesn't burn through the spell.

Well, I couldn't live with all those inconsistencies, but it's up to you. I do agree with Ardanis here, Breach should work as per description, as a 5th level spell blocked by spell protections and not able to bypass 'immunity to 5th level spells'.

 

This is why SCS is modular. No-one is forced to install this component.

[Guest amanasleep]

FWIW: I am in favor of Breach not affecting Liches and Rakshasas. If you are high enough level you have plenty of options. Liches were too easy in vanilla and could use some toughening even in SCS2.

 

I am in favor of Spell Thrust removing MGoI. It's in the description so why not?

 

I am in favor of SW removing/bypassing GoI. Currently the spell is useless in SCS2, and would remain so even if it is one of only two spells to bypass II. If it can't get past GoI it's still useless.

[Guest amanasleep]

Or I can just live with Minor Spell Deflection not deflecting Breach; or I can let Minor Spell Deflection give immunity to Breach and live with the fact that it doesn't burn through the spell.

Well, I couldn't live with all those inconsistencies, but it's up to you. I do agree with Ardanis here, Breach should work as per description, as a 5th level spell blocked by spell protections and not able to bypass 'immunity to 5th level spells'.

 

This is why SCS is modular. No-one is forced to install this component.

 

Bit of a poison pill here. What if you want Breach to bounce off Spell Turning but not affect Liches and Rakshasas?