Magic Attacks

[Demivrgvs]

I've been staying away from this thread, but I do have to echo this, as it's always seemed silly (to me) that Big Bad Bossmage can layer himself with Spell Turning and GoI and Spell Immunity and whatnot, and then I just Web his ass. Why not simply have all spell protections (that we judge worthy/needing of it, at least) simply embed a list of Protection from Spell opcodes, for every AoE spell that's at least 3 spell levels lower than the Protection itself? e.g., Spell Trap provides immunity to Acid Fog, but not ADHW. That would at least minimize the "Fireball vs. Spell Turning backfire" problem, as only AoE spells high-level enough to appear on ST's "radar" would be reflected at all. (True, many players might consider that a drawback, but ST would still be a great spell.)

GoI already protects against Web since it's a 2nd level spell.

Yeah, I don't like Six's suggestion, Globes of Invulnerability perform this role quite well imo.

 

 

I am still a bit leery of Spell Protections protecting against AoE spells.

 

1. This makes all other specific protections unnecessary. If you are running spell Deflection, you don't need Protection from Elements or Magic Energy, you don't need Chaotic Commands or Death Ward, or Free Action, etc. All of these buffs are unnecessary. Just cast a single spell and you essentially have a limited duration Demi Lich immunity.

 

2. This makes Spell Trap exploits not only easy, but somewhat unavoidable, as it encourages players to cast party unfriendly AoE spells with Spell Trap running to both hurt enemies and rememorize spells. Please Demi, do not respond with "So what? It's a damn 9th Level Spell!!!!" Spell Trap is already one of the most abusable spells in Vanilla (Infinite Spells via PI).

1. are you saying that a Minor Spell Deflection that after deflecting a Sunfire is dispelled makes Protection from Fire, which can absorb infinite times Meteor Swarm, obsolete? All the spells you've mentioned last 3 times longer than Spell Deflection and protect from an infinite amount of spells instead of 2-3 spells.

 

2. Just so you know within SR V3 you need at least two high level mages to exploit Spell Trap with Project Image because I'm preventing PI from casting spells on the caster who created it. That being said, what you mention is a really lame exploit, and I don't care too much for players who're going to cheat their way even after my efforts to prevent it (why don't they just replenish the spellbook with shadowkeeper whenever they need it?). Similarly to what I just said while replying to 1. , if you want to cast tons of unfriendly spells over your party Spell Trap doesn't outshine the other spells you've mentioned at all for two reasons. a) Spell Trap is depleted after x lvl of spells (and we may lower x to 15-18, meaning 2x 9th lvl spell deplete it), while for example Protection from Energy can absorb infinite damage dealing spells. b) Spell Trap is only self targeted while all the other spells you've mentioned can be cast on your fighters.

 

Not to mention that Spell Trap is a damn 9th lvl spell!

[Ardanis]

1. This makes all other specific protections unnecessary. If you are running spell Deflection, you don't need Protection from Elements or Magic Energy, you don't need Chaotic Commands or Death Ward, or Free Action, etc. All of these buffs are unnecessary.

Not exactly. If you run into a bunch of, say, yuan-ti wizards who love to throw around Chaos and Skull Trap you'll find that your 12 spell levels of protection run out very quickly.

 

2. This makes Spell Trap exploits not only easy, but somewhat unavoidable, as it encourages players to cast party unfriendly AoE spells with Spell Trap running to both hurt enemies and rememorize spells

I'll respond with my own quote

2) Spell Trap's exploit

c) Just don't exploit it?

d) I find it nice for a change to get 1-3 of your spells back during a fiery fight when everyone bombards everyone, friend or foe alike. Especially if like me the one hates to rest in a dungeon

Also, not to sound like a certain someone from a certain somewhere, but imo no serious player is going to abuse Spell Trap if they're not interested in it.

[amanasleep]

I am still a bit leery of Spell Protections protecting against AoE spells.

 

1. This makes all other specific protections unnecessary. If you are running spell Deflection, you don't need Protection from Elements or Magic Energy, you don't need Chaotic Commands or Death Ward, or Free Action, etc. All of these buffs are unnecessary. Just cast a single spell and you essentially have a limited duration Demi Lich immunity.

 

2. This makes Spell Trap exploits not only easy, but somewhat unavoidable, as it encourages players to cast party unfriendly AoE spells with Spell Trap running to both hurt enemies and rememorize spells. Please Demi, do not respond with "So what? It's a damn 9th Level Spell!!!!" Spell Trap is already one of the most abusable spells in Vanilla (Infinite Spells via PI).

1. are you saying that a Minor Spell Deflection that after deflecting a Sunfire is dispelled makes Protection from Fire, which can absorb infinite times Meteor Swarm, obsolete? All the spells you've mentioned last 3 times longer than Spell Deflection and protect from an infinite amount of spells instead of 2-3 spells.

 

The problem is that they protect from everything. You don't need protection from infinite spells. A wizard needs protection from just enough spells to kill his enemy. This is similar to the SPR debate. Minor Spell Deflection won't protect against 10 Meteor Swarms (or any, as MSD doesn't work on spells of level 5 or above, so no Sunfire either), but Pro Fire won't protect against even one Chaos or Horrid Wilting while the proposed Greater Spell Deflection protects against a Meteor Swarm plus at least one other spell of any type.

 

BTW, how will these spells interact with stationary area damage? Do they get checked every round?

 

Since spell protections become comprehensive, mages need not memorize anything else and can continually refresh their spell protections as they run out without any fear whatsoever that they will be depleted even for a second.

 

Essentially what you are doing is changing a system where mages need to protect against specific sources of damage and effects (PfME + Pro: Elements + SI's + GoI + II + Spell Turning + Remove Fear + Priest Buffs or Potions, etc.) with (Damn 9th Level Spell, or D9LS for short) Spell Trap protecting against 30 spell levels from any source (and getting spells back), or even Greater Spell Deflection protecting against 12 levels plus Spell Deflection for 10 levels. You can muck about with the number of levels protected but the principle is the same.

 

2. Just so you know within SR V3 you need at least two high level mages to exploit Spell Trap with Project Image because I'm preventing PI from casting spells on the caster who created it. That being said, what you mention is a really lame exploit, and I don't care too much for players who're going to cheat their way even after my efforts to prevent it (why don't they just replenish the spellbook with shadowkeeper whenever they need it?). Similarly to what I just said while replying to 1. , if you want to cast tons of unfriendly spells over your party Spell Trap doesn't outshine the other spells you've mentioned at all for two reasons. a) Spell Trap is depleted after x lvl of spells (and we may lower x to 15-18, meaning 2x 9th lvl spell deplete it), while for example Protection from Energy can absorb infinite damage dealing spells. b) Spell Trap is only self targeted while all the other spells you've mentioned can be cast on your fighters.

 

Not to mention that Spell Trap is a damn 9th lvl spell!

 

Leaving aside the current Spell Trap exploits, the fact is that under the proposed system a mage casting Spell Trap and Spell Deflection has complete spell protection. If Spell Trap is depleted or removed Spell Deflection absorbs the next attack while Spell Trap is refreshed. While under Spell Trap the mage will be certain to cast high level area damage spells and stand in the AoE, the better to regain spells quickly. Since the AI is unable to execute this strategy unless solo the player now has a huge advantage. Not even GoI is needed. Liches don't care a fig for having Lich immunity anymore, they have Spell Trap which is way better. II is unnecessary--why would you want to be untargetable? You want people to cast spells at your Spell Trap so you can relearn your spells and recast them! And if they don't you have a Chain Contingency 3x Delayed Blast Fireball or a Wish for ADHW on everything in the area (including party members who did use PfME after all). The possibilities are endless for abuse.

 

Even without Spell Trap, having Greater Spell Deflection plus regular Spell Deflection gives protection from all spell damage and effects of all levels limited only by your supply of Level 7 and Level 5 spells. You can easily keep it going for the casting of at least 7-8 rounds with a few memorizations and a Contingency.

 

I know for certain that under these rules I will never memorize specific protections again.

[Demivrgvs]

... Even without Spell Trap, having Greater Spell Deflection plus regular Spell Deflection gives protection from all spell damage and effects of all levels limited only by your supply of Level 7 and Level 5 spells. You can easily keep it going for the casting of at least 7-8 rounds with a few memorizations and a Contingency.

Few things:

- multiple Spell Deflection spells don't stack imo, and if they currently do I'll prevent it because it doesn't make sense (just like you can't cast 3x Stoneskin to have 30 skins!)

- this solution would actually prevent Spell Deflection + Spell Turning, thus it reduces the amount of stackable spell protections

- for what's worth I actually consider Spell Trap the highest version of Spell Deflection, thus unless the AI stacks Spell Trap and Spell Deflection I have no problems blocking this too

 

And regarding the "limited only by your supply of Level 7 and Level 5 spells" part, memorizing 10x SD and ignoring things like Breach, Lower Resistance, Mordenkainen's Sword, Ruby Ray, Spell Sequencer, Warding Whip and so on doesn't seem a great choice to me.

 

 

I know for certain that under these rules I will never memorize specific protections again.

Do you really think that filling your entire spellbook with Spell Deflection is going to make your caster invincible? I think you're incredibly overstimating SD. I may try with few examples:

- Spell Thrust (a single 3rd lvl spell) would be able to dispel both Minor Spell Deflection (3rd lvl) and Spell Deflection (5th lvl)

- Secret Word (4th lvl) would easily tear down Greater Spell Deflection (7th lvl)

- Warding Whip is going to remove one SD each round for 4 rounds (thus 4x Greater Spell Deflections with a single spell removal)

- high level spells would ignore (Minor) Spell Deflection (e.g. 8th an 9th lvl spells bypass Spell Deflection)

- three spells of 4th level or a single spell sequencer would wipe out Greater Spell Deflection

- a single spell trigger would not only destroy Greater Spell Deflection, but also affect the protected caster with the last spell

- specific protections grants immunity not only from an infinite amount of spells, but also from on hit effects, and supernatural abilities (e.g. try facing Mind Flyer's without Chaotic Commands and let me know how it goes as psionics bypass SD)

 

And let's not forget that:

- specific protections last 10 rounds/level, spell protections currently last 3 rounds/lvl

- specific protections can be cast on others, spell protections are usable only by mages (this is extremely important imo)

 

I'm not even slightly afraid of this system as you are, and generally I'm the first who starts worrying at any sight of possible balancing issues.

[Ardanis]

- Spell Thrust (a single 3rd lvl spell) would be able to dispel both Minor Spell Deflection (3rd lvl) and Spell Deflection (5th lvl)

- Secret Word (4th lvl) would easily tear down Greater Spell Deflection (7th lvl)

- Warding Whip is going to remove one SD each round for 4 rounds (thus 4x Greater Spell Deflections with a single spell removal)

And AI does prefer to destroy SPs, even if there's a bunch of unprotected tanks jumping around up and down waiting for PFMW to expire. SCS's one, that's it.

 

Liches, well, they're always full of 'Protection from xxxx' and if 'protection from spell [206]' is being checked before SD (which don't recall offhands) then there's almost no difference at all.

 

[edit]And also, the described process of constantly recasting SPs is very similar to recasting PFMW. Which is finely counterable.[/edit]

 

BTW it's all very easy to test in action if you wish.

 

1) create .txt file in your BG2 directory, open with a text editor of your choice.

2) copypaste the following, which can be found in 1st and 3rd posts of 'AoE spells' topic here in SR forum, inside and save

BACKUP ~SP vs AoE~
AUTHOR ~Gibberlings3~
BEGIN ~SPs block AoE spells~
// removing 'bypassing MR' exploit and making spells affectable by spell protections

ACTION_FOR_EACH spell IN

// AoE spells with MR issue

~spwi213~ // stinking cloud
~spwi215~ // web
~spwi304~ // fireball
~spwi313~ // skull trap
~spwi404~ // ice storm
~spwi502~ // cloud kill
~spwi503~ // cone of cold
// ~spwi523~ // sunfire
~spwi614~ // death fog
~spwi712~ // delayed blast fireball
~spwi714~ // prismatic spray
~spwi810~ // incendiary cloud
~spwi911~ // meteor swarm

~spwi922~ // dragon breath
~spwi925~ // comet

// ~sppr304~ // glyph of warding
~sppr313~ // holy smite
~sppr314~ // unholy blight
~sppr503~ // flame strike
~sppr705~ // fire storm
// ~sppr720~ // earthquake

// AoE spells without MR issues

~spwi205~ // horror
~spwi224~ // glitterdust
~spwi306~ // hold person
~spwi324~ // hold undead
~spwi312~ // slow
~spwi411~ // emotion
~spwi412~ // greater malison
~spwi421~ // teleprot field
~spwi507~ // hold monster
~spwi508~ // chaos
~spwi605~ // death spell
~spwi615~ // chain ligthning
~spwi711~ // sphere of chaos
~spwi720~ // control undead
// ~spwi811~ // symbol fear
~spwi812~ // abi-dalzim
// ~spwi816~ // symbol stun
// ~spwi817~ // symbol death
~spwi913~ // wail of banshee

~sppr105~ // entangle
~sppr208~ // hold person
~sppr305~ // hold animal
~sppr416~ // cloak of fear
~sppr517~ // insect plague
~sppr609~ // false dawn
~sppr704~ // nature's beauty
// ~sppr706~ // symbol fear
~sppr707~ // sunray
~sppr709~ // cunfusion
~sppr710~ // holy word
~sppr715~ // unholy word
~sppr717~ // creeping doom
// ~sppr718~ // symbol stun
// ~sppr719~ // symbol death

~sppr722~ // storm of vengeance

BEGIN

 ACTION_IF FILE_EXISTS ~%spell%b.spl~ BEGIN
PRINT ~The %spell%b.spl already exists in your game. Take measures.~
 END

 COPY_EXISTING ~%spell%.spl~ ~override/%spell%b.spl~ // cloning original into the secondary spell
WRITE_ASCII 0x8 ~~ (8) // clearing out the name
READ_LONG 0x64  ab_off
READ_SHORT 0x68 ab_num
READ_LONG 0x6a  ef_off
READ_SHORT 0x70 cast_num // global effects aka casting features

// deleting 'Set Global Variable [265]' opcodes
deleted=0
FOR (i=0;i<cast_num;i+=1) BEGIN
  READ_SHORT (ef_off+(i - deleted)*0x30) opcode
  PATCH_IF opcode=265 BEGIN
	DELETE_BYTES (ef_off+(i - deleted)*0x30) 0x30
	deleted+=1
  END
END
WRITE_SHORT 0x70 (cast_num - deleted)
FOR (i=0;i<ab_num;i+=1) BEGIN
  inner_deleted=0
  READ_SHORT  (ab_off+i*0x28+0x1e) ef_num  // effect number
  READ_SHORT  (ab_off+i*0x28+0x20) ef_ind  // effect index
  WRITE_SHORT (ab_off+i*0x28+0x20) (ef_ind - deleted)
  FOR (j=0;j<ef_num;j+=1) BEGIN
	READ_SHORT (ef_off+(ef_ind+j - deleted)*0x30) opcode
	PATCH_IF opcode=265 BEGIN
	  DELETE_BYTES (ef_off+(ef_ind+j - deleted)*0x30) 0x30
	  deleted+=1
	  inner_deleted+=1
	END
  END
  WRITE_SHORT (ab_off+i*0x28+0x1e) (ef_num - inner_deleted)

  WRITE_SHORT (ab_off+i*0x28+0x0c) 1 // target = creature
  WRITE_SHORT (ab_off+i*0x28+0x26) 1 // projectile = none
END

 COPY_EXISTING ~%spell%.spl~ ~override~			  // modifying the original
READ_LONG 0x34  level
READ_LONG 0x64  ab_off
READ_SHORT 0x68 ab_num
READ_LONG 0x6a  ef_off
READ_SHORT 0x70 cast_num // global effects aka casting features


total_eff=cast_num
FOR (i=0;i<ab_num;i+=1) BEGIN
  READ_SHORT  (ab_off+i*0x28+0x1e) ef_num  // effect number
  READ_SHORT  (ab_off+i*0x28+0x20) ef_ind  // effect index
  total_eff+=ef_num
END

DELETE_BYTES ef_off ((total_eff - 1)*0x30)
DELETE_BYTES ab_off ((ab_num - 1)*0x28)
WRITE_SHORT 0x68 1
WRITE_LONG 0x6a  (ef_off - (ab_num - 1)*0x28)
WRITE_SHORT 0x70 0
WRITE_SHORT (ab_off+0x1e) 1
WRITE_SHORT (ab_off+0x20) 0

// ability header
WRITE_SHORT (ab_off+0x10) 1 // level required

// effect
offset=(ef_off - (ab_num - 1)*0x28)
WRITE_SHORT (offset+0x00) 146	 // opcode = cast spell on creature
WRITE_BYTE  (offset+0x02) 2	   // target = pre-target
WRITE_BYTE  (offset+0x03) level   // power level = spell level
WRITE_LONG  (offset+0x04) 0	   // parameter 1 = caster's level
WRITE_LONG  (offset+0x08) 1	   // parameter 2 = instant
WRITE_BYTE  (offset+0x0c) 1	   // timing mode = permanent
WRITE_ASCII (offset+0x0d) ~~ (5)  // clearing out the space
WRITE_BYTE  (offset+0x12) 100	 // probability 1 = 100%
WRITE_BYTE  (offset+0x13) 0	   // probability 2 = 0%
WRITE_ASCIIE (offset+0x14) ~%spell%b~ (8) // resource
WRITE_ASCII (offset+0x1c) ~~ (20) // clearing out the space

END // ACTION_FOR_EACH

3) rename the file to 'setup-sp_vs_aoe.tp2'

4) copy any weidu executable and rename to 'setup-sp_vs_aoe.exe' and run

5) launch the game and find some wizards to fight

[DavidW]

Please do bear in mind that this shell spell technology is going to break some mods if you're not careful. Notably, it will confuse Detectable Spells because the DS macro will try to patch the wrong spells. There are a number of ways of getting around that though. The one that's most straightforward to implement, I think, is for SR itself to ship with DS included. The code order would need to be

 

(i) copy over the various spells in SR

(ii) install DS

(iii) run shell-spell-generating code

 

(Of course, nothing that clean will work if you decide to build all the shell spells locally and just ship them pre-made.)

[Demivrgvs]

Please do bear in mind that this shell spell technology is going to break some mods if you're not careful. Notably, it will confuse Detectable Spells because the DS macro will try to patch the wrong spells. There are a number of ways of getting around that though. The one that's most straightforward to implement, I think, is for SR itself to ship with DS included. The code order would need to be

 

(i) copy over the various spells in SR

(ii) install DS

(iii) run shell-spell-generating code

 

(Of course, nothing that clean will work if you decide to build all the shell spells locally and just ship them pre-made.)

That's why I'm leaving it for V4, as I prefer to test the system myself (and hopefully Ardanis will help me testing this considering he's the one who started it all! ) for some time before giving the ok. And yes, I think including DS within V4 is going to be mandatory.

[DavidW]

Please do bear in mind that this shell spell technology is going to break some mods if you're not careful. Notably, it will confuse Detectable Spells because the DS macro will try to patch the wrong spells. There are a number of ways of getting around that though. The one that's most straightforward to implement, I think, is for SR itself to ship with DS included. The code order would need to be

 

(i) copy over the various spells in SR

(ii) install DS

(iii) run shell-spell-generating code

 

(Of course, nothing that clean will work if you decide to build all the shell spells locally and just ship them pre-made.)

That's why I'm leaving it for V4, as I prefer to test the system myself (and hopefully Ardanis will help me testing this considering he's the one who started it all! ) for some time before giving the ok. And yes, I think including DS within V4 is going to be mandatory.

 

Cool: I think that's sensible. A request: if at all possible can you follow something like Ardanis' strategy of making the shell spells on the fly via WEIDU code when SRv4 installs, rather than just shipping them. It will make various compatibility issues, esp. with DS, a good deal easier to manage.

[Demivrgvs]

Please do bear in mind that this shell spell technology is going to break some mods if you're not careful. Notably, it will confuse Detectable Spells because the DS macro will try to patch the wrong spells. There are a number of ways of getting around that though. The one that's most straightforward to implement, I think, is for SR itself to ship with DS included. The code order would need to be

 

(i) copy over the various spells in SR

(ii) install DS

(iii) run shell-spell-generating code

 

(Of course, nothing that clean will work if you decide to build all the shell spells locally and just ship them pre-made.)

That's why I'm leaving it for V4, as I prefer to test the system myself (and hopefully Ardanis will help me testing this considering he's the one who started it all! ) for some time before giving the ok. And yes, I think including DS within V4 is going to be mandatory.

 

Cool: I think that's sensible. A request: if at all possible can you follow something like Ardanis' strategy of making the shell spells on the fly via WEIDU code when SRv4 installs, rather than just shipping them. It will make various compatibility issues, esp. with DS, a good deal easier to manage.

Yes, will do.

[amanasleep]

... Even without Spell Trap, having Greater Spell Deflection plus regular Spell Deflection gives protection from all spell damage and effects of all levels limited only by your supply of Level 7 and Level 5 spells. You can easily keep it going for the casting of at least 7-8 rounds with a few memorizations and a Contingency.

Few things:

- multiple Spell Deflection spells don't stack imo, and if they currently do I'll prevent it because it doesn't make sense (just like you can't cast 3x Stoneskin to have 30 skins!)

 

Different level spell protections stack. If you are changing that too, well...

 

This starts to look like adding epicycles to the Medieval crystal spheres.

 

You do understand that I am arguing that these changes make the game easier for the player and harder for the AI, right?

 

- this solution would actually prevent Spell Deflection + Spell Turning, thus it reduces the amount of stackable spell protections

- for what's worth I actually consider Spell Trap the highest version of Spell Deflection, thus unless the AI stacks Spell Trap and Spell Deflection I have no problems blocking this too

 

I'm pretty certain it does (since it stacks other protections). If it doesn't, no matter. This change makes what the AI does mostly irrelevant.

 

And regarding the "limited only by your supply of Level 7 and Level 5 spells" part, memorizing 10x SD and ignoring things like Breach, Lower Resistance, Mordenkainen's Sword, Ruby Ray, Spell Sequencer, Warding Whip and so on doesn't seem a great choice to me.

 

10x is unnecessary. 4x or 5x plus a Contingency is sufficient. Keep in mind that by doing this you obviate the need to memorize any specific protections.

 

I know for certain that under these rules I will never memorize specific protections again.

Do you really think that filling your entire spellbook with Spell Deflection is going to make your caster invincible? I think you're incredibly overstimating SD. I may try with few examples:

- Spell Thrust (a single 3rd lvl spell) would be able to dispel both Minor Spell Deflection (3rd lvl) and Spell Deflection (5th lvl)

- Secret Word (4th lvl) would easily tear down Greater Spell Deflection (7th lvl)

- Warding Whip is going to remove one SD each round for 4 rounds (thus 4x Greater Spell Deflections with a single spell removal)

- high level spells would ignore (Minor) Spell Deflection (e.g. 8th an 9th lvl spells bypass Spell Deflection)

- three spells of 4th level or a single spell sequencer would wipe out Greater Spell Deflection

- a single spell trigger would not only destroy Greater Spell Deflection, but also affect the protected caster with the last spell

 

Beyond the fact that you change your rules every time you respond (Spell Protections no longer stack, Warding Whip removes 4 protections instead of 3, 8th and 9th Level spells bypass spell Deflection!!!) please note that the AI cannot effectively counter the player using these protections, and limiting say stacking of protections only helps the player and hurts the AI. So all the points above make the AI weaker and the player stronger.

 

Currently under SCS2 and without SR:

 

You need 3x Pierce Magic to get rid of Spell Turning + Spell Deflection + GoI.

 

The player needs to cast specific protections to avoid enemy spells.

 

Under proposed SR v3:

 

You need 2x SW.

 

The player casts Greater Spell Deflection and II to make the AI waste spells tearing it down (or else he's completely protected), recasting GSD (or SD and GoI which prevents Spell Thrust) whenever necessary. In ToB levels the player casts Spell Trap and after isolating his mage casts party unfriendly area damage spells to refresh his spell book every few rounds. This is so easy that calling it an exploit is like "exploiting" fighters' ability to attack with weapons while wearing armor.

 

If the AI casts Spell Trap the player dispels it with a single Ruby Ray and then proceeds to follow up with a single SW, then ST, then Breach (after True Sight gets the II).

 

KWW is totally useless since it destroys more protections than can be active at a single time, plus it can't penetrate II (unless you're going to change that too!).

 

- specific protections grants immunity not only from an infinite amount of spells, but also from on hit effects, and supernatural abilities (e.g. try facing Mind Flyer's without Chaotic Commands and let me know how it goes as psionics bypass SD)

 

Terrible example since I am not arguing about Combat Protections (PfMW is still necessary). Chaotic Commands is a Priest Buff and MF combat has nothing to do with Mage combat!!!!

 

And for one last time:

 

It is MIND FLAYERS, not Mind Flyers.

 

They do not fly. They FLAY your MIND.

 

And let's not forget that:

- specific protections last 10 rounds/level, spell protections currently last 3 rounds/lvl

- specific protections can be cast on others, spell protections are usable only by mages (this is extremely important imo)

 

Irrelevant, since combat doesn't last more than 10-15 rounds total. I would use specific protections on party members, of course, but that's the same in vanilla. It's just that the new system makes them unnecessary for the Player to cast on his mage, while the AI still has to cast them (because it's so much easier for the player to remove his spell protections while maintaining his own).

 

I'm not even slightly afraid of this system as you are, and generally I'm the first who starts worrying at any sight of possible balancing issues.

 

Um, ok. You're the boss.

[Ardanis]

You do understand that I am arguing that these changes make the game easier for the player and harder for the AI, right?

I think quite the opposite.

AI doesn't know enough to target ground nearby (though it's doable to extent), so it can't utilize this trick to bypass SD and make some use of it's vulnerability to AoE. Player will no longer be able to use it against AI.

 

As a result, AI suffers nothing, but player loses an edge.

 

 

Regarging what you've said about specific protections being obsolete until SD is removed. Yes, it does make a point, but still I'm sure not as big one as you describe it. Testing will show, I guess.

[Demivrgvs]

Beyond the fact that you change your rules every time you respond (Spell Protections no longer stack, Warding Whip removes 4 protections instead of 3, 8th and 9th Level spells bypass spell Deflection!!!) ...

Beyond the fact that it wouldn't be strange considering we're actually discussing eventual future changes and not something already done:

- spell protections of the same type stacking doesn't make sense, and the AI doesn't exploit it if I'm not wrong

- Warding Whip removed 4 spell protections since V1, simply because vanilla's description says it last 3 rounds thus I assumed 1 on hit + 1 after 6 sec + 1 after 12 sec + 1 after 18 sec = 4

- 8th and 9th lvl spells bypassing (Minor) Spell Deflection is actually already there since they would replace the 3rd lvl and 5th lvl spell protections which never protected from spells higher than 7th lvl

 

 

Under proposed SR v3: ...

For V4, V3 won't have these changes as I want to test it.

 

 

And let's not forget that:

- specific protections last 10 rounds/level, spell protections currently last 3 rounds/lvl

- specific protections can be cast on others, spell protections are usable only by mages (this is extremely important imo)

a) Irrelevant, since combat doesn't last more than 10-15 rounds total.

b) I would use specific protections on party members, of course, but that's the same in vanilla.

c) It's just that the new system makes them unnecessary for the Player to cast on his mage, ...

a) are you assuming that you'll rest after every fight? I'm a roleplayer and I tend to rest only when it makes sense, not 10 times per dungeon.

b) thus they don't become so useless after all

c) this is what doesn't convince me at all. Spell Deflection would temporarily cover their role too yes, but not as much as you think imo.

 

 

You do understand that I am arguing that these changes make the game easier for the player and harder for the AI, right?

I think quite the opposite.

AI doesn't know enough to target ground nearby (though it's doable to extent), so it can't utilize this trick to bypass SD and make some use of it's vulnerability to AoE. Player will no longer be able to use it against AI.

 

As a result, AI suffers nothing, but player loses an edge.

As Ardanis says I dons't think this change would weaken the AI.

 

 

Regarging what you've said about specific protections being obsolete until SD is removed. Yes, it does make a point, but still I'm sure not as big one as you describe it. Testing will show, I guess.

Exactly my thought.

[amanasleep]

Beyond the fact that you change your rules every time you respond (Spell Protections no longer stack, Warding Whip removes 4 protections instead of 3, 8th and 9th Level spells bypass spell Deflection!!!) ...

Beyond the fact that it wouldn't be strange considering we're actually discussing eventual future changes and not something already done:

 

Even in a hypothetical conversation you cannot introduce new premises as settled half way through the discussion.

 

- spell protections of the same type stacking doesn't make sense, and the AI doesn't exploit it if I'm not wrong

 

An aesthetic consideration. Since you have made all spell protections of the same type (by converting Spell Turning to Deflection), then formerly different SP's are now "the same type". Are you also not in favor of Vanilla stacking Spell Turning and Spell Deflection? How about Spell Turning and Spell Trap? You spend a lot of time arguing how weak SP's are, then you want to nerf the ability to effectively layer them? That makes no sense to me.

 

- Warding Whip removed 4 spell protections since V1, simply because vanilla's description says it last 3 rounds thus I assumed 1 on hit + 1 after 6 sec + 1 after 12 sec + 1 after 18 sec = 4

 

Beyond being entirely arbitrary, this change to the behavior of vanilla KWW is undocumented. Furthermore it makes KWW behave differently from other spells that fire once per X rounds. Ice Storm lasts for 4 rounds, during which it only hits four times. If it behaved like KWW it would hit 5 times. If you want KWW to hit 4 times give it a duration of 4 rounds and be done with it. To do as you have done is just confusing (not to mention unnecessary--does anybody think that KWW needed to hit an extra time?).

 

- 8th and 9th lvl spells bypassing (Minor) Spell Deflection is actually already there since they would replace the 3rd lvl and 5th lvl spell protections which never protected from spells higher than 7th lvl

 

Ah, I see what you did there. You have removed Spell Turning and Spell Deflection from the game, and replaced it with a "Spell Deflection" which is weaker than Minor Spell Turning but protects from AoE. Got it.

 

Under proposed SR v3: ...

For V4, V3 won't have these changes as I want to test it.

 

Fair enough.

 

And let's not forget that:

- specific protections last 10 rounds/level, spell protections currently last 3 rounds/lvl

- specific protections can be cast on others, spell protections are usable only by mages (this is extremely important imo)

a) Irrelevant, since combat doesn't last more than 10-15 rounds total.

b) I would use specific protections on party members, of course, but that's the same in vanilla.

c) It's just that the new system makes them unnecessary for the Player to cast on his mage, ...

 

a) are you assuming that you'll rest after every fight? I'm a roleplayer and I tend to rest only when it makes sense, not 10 times per dungeon.

 

So your mod is useful only for RP types?

 

In any event under the proposed v4 changes Spell Trap is so easy to abuse that you will be able to rememorize all your essential spells after most fights anyway--No resting necessary! I noticed how you have made the caster go II after casting PI. Great until v4 when you cast Spell Trap, PI, PI casts Spell Trap, PI empties spell book before casting 3x DBF rememorizing PI's spells and original caster's spells. And the original caster got a free II out of the deal too!

 

Even without PI what if you have 3 Arcane casters in your party and they all cast Spell Trap and then empty their spell books, except for one of them who keeps his area damage in reserve. So AoE spells refresh 3 spell books!

 

Under the proposed rules this is hardly an exploit, but rather so elementary a tactic that any player (even a RP'er like yourself) would be foolish not to use it.

 

b) thus they don't become so useless after all

 

Correct, but they do become less useful overall. It is also ridiculous that they are useful for everybody except the caster.

 

c) this is what doesn't convince me at all. Spell Deflection would temporarily cover their role too yes, but not as much as you think imo.

 

Perhaps, but only because you have responded to the obvious exploits of universal AoE protection by totally nerfing the progression of SP's:

 

1. Only "Greater" Spell Deflection protects against spells of any level.

2. None of the Deflection Spells stack, not even with Spell Trap!

3. Don't get me started on how much Greater GoI screws with balance, but at least we'll get to see how that works in v3. It will interact very poorly with the v4 SP vs SPR overhaul...

 

You do understand that I am arguing that these changes make the game easier for the player and harder for the AI, right?

I think quite the opposite.

AI doesn't know enough to target ground nearby (though it's doable to extent), so it can't utilize this trick to bypass SD and make some use of it's vulnerability to AoE. Player will no longer be able to use it against AI.

 

As a result, AI suffers nothing, but player loses an edge.

As Ardanis says I dons't think this change would weaken the AI.

 

The AI doesn't need to target ground to hit the player with AoE. Especially in SCS2 it targets self, or nearby unprotected NPC's. It "gets around" SD's vulnerability to AoE that way.

 

Anyway that's not the edge I was arguing that the player has. The edge is in using party unfriendly spells with greater abandon, since the Player's mage is now protected from all AoE spells he can wade in there and use them. F/M types and Bards (and even Priests, since I assume that the Spell Deflection rules will apply to Shield of the Archons too) can all wade into combat, immune to all sorts of AoE. Don't forget Ring of Spell Turning (ahem Spell Deflection) and Book of Infinite Spells Spell Turning (Deflection) page, which theoretically can be used on anybody, plus Stalker MSD, etc.

 

This is without even considering how broken Spell trap becomes.

 

 

Regarging what you've said about specific protections being obsolete until SD is removed. Yes, it does make a point, but still I'm sure not as big one as you describe it. Testing will show, I guess.

Exactly my thought.

 

By all means, test it out.

 

But I'm telling you, this is a major, major gameplay change, and likely will take over the entire mod.

 

If that's what you want, who am I to judge? But you can probably count me out as a SR v4 user.

[Jarno Mikkola]

In any event under the proposed v4 changes Spell Trap is so easy to abuse that you will be able to rememorize all your essential spells after most fights anyway--No resting necessary! I noticed how you have made the caster go II after casting PI. Great until v4 when you cast Spell Trap, PI, PI casts Spell Trap, PI empties spell book before casting 3x DBF rememorizing PI's spells and original caster's spells. And the original caster got a free II out of the deal too!

 

Even without PI what if you have 3 Arcane casters in your party and they all cast Spell Trap and then empty their spell books, except for one of them who keeps his area damage in reserve. So AoE spells refresh 3 spell books!

Well, if the spell deflections AoE protection is a protection, not a deflection... the spells won't get restored, but no one gets hurt, expect the monsters outside the wizards defensive bubbles, and as only the direct attack spells restore spells... it's balanced... unless the AoE spell is over the level limit of the protection bubble and then the wizard gets fried.

And what comes to the PI, the spell should actually cast projectile spells, illusionary projectile spells... but that's another thing entirely.

[Ardanis]

F/M types and Bards (and even Priests, since I assume that the Spell Deflection rules will apply to Shield of the Archons too) can all wade into combat, immune to all sorts of AoE.

They're already immune to AoE whenever they wish, thanks to SI:Evocation.

 

I still think you overestimate the significance of the impact such a change may have on gameplay.

 

Khelben's Warding Whip

- Warding Whip removed 4 spell protections since V1, simply because vanilla's description says it last 3 rounds thus I assumed 1 on hit + 1 after 6 sec + 1 after 12 sec + 1 after 18 sec = 4

Furthermore it makes KWW behave differently from other spells that fire once per X rounds. Ice Storm lasts for 4 rounds, during which it only hits four times. If it behaved like KWW it would hit 5 times

Actually yes.

 

As for 3 or 4 hits, well, I've never ever bothered to memorize KWW in my entire life, but thanks to you guys bringing this up, I'll try to use SR's 4-hitter next time I meet a hostile wizard. Might be worthwhile indeed.