Magic Attacks

[DavidW]

I don't want to get systematically involved in this, but I thought I'd echo this:

 

--I think a big point missing from this discussion is that removing spell protections takes time, and do not in themselves harm the target in any way. Under most situations, even removing all protections still prevents you from doing anything to the target until the following round. During that time the defensive wizard could be casting a damage/disabling spell at you.

 

Quite so: the point of magic defences is not to make you invulnerable, it's to protect you for long enough to let you do some damage. As I've said elsewhere, it's a mage's version of hit points.

[Demivrgvs]

I don't want to get systematically involved in this, but I thought I'd echo this:

 

--I think a big point missing from this discussion is that removing spell protections takes time, and do not in themselves harm the target in any way. Under most situations, even removing all protections still prevents you from doing anything to the target until the following round. During that time the defensive wizard could be casting a damage/disabling spell at you.

 

Quite so: the point of magic defences is not to make you invulnerable, it's to protect you for long enough to let you do some damage. As I've said elsewhere, it's a mage's version of hit points.

Fine with me.

 

I still find quite a shame that within BG Spell Deflection/Turning are just more expensive versions of Spell Shield because the AI will never cast a spell at you and just cast a spell removal. Not to mention that using Spell Turning instead of Spell Deflection really doesn't make any difference. In PnP spell removals don't exist, and casting Spell Deflection/Turning is a really big deal because you pratically force opponents to rely on AoE spells only.

 

 

Pierce Magic

On a completely different note, I just come up with an idea to make Pierce Magic a little more unique like I did for Pierce Shield (which removes combat protections within SR). What about making it remove specific protections? Pierce Magic does sounds to me like something that can pierce things like Protection from Evil, Resist Fear, Chaotic Commands, Death Ward, Fire Shields, Free Action, Protection from Magic Energy, Protection from the Elements are all effects. What do you think?

 

It is important to note that Pierce Magic/Shield would work slightly different than Breach, as both these spells are also spell removals. They are considered antimagic attacks (like Breach used to be) and thus bypass spell protections.

 

And speaking of these spells, is there anyone who use them to lower magic resistance?

 

 

Pierce Shield

I never received much feedback on SR's Pierce Shield, was it a welcome improvement?

 

 

Lower Resistance

As we decided to not allow multiple schools I've made it an Alteration spell (a la IWD/NWN and 3rd editions, it was both Abj and Alt). I consider it more an Alteration rather than an Abjuration because it also affects natural resistance and priest's Magic Resistance is an Alteration spell. Furthermore, Abjurers have tons of 5th level spells whereas Transmuters have not a single one except this; it's not as important as the other aspects, but it matters imo.

I've also changed it's progression from 20% +1% per level (instead of vanilla's 10% +1%/lvl) to 2% per caster level. This makes caster level much more important.

Last but not least, this spell shouldn't bypass spell protections imo, as it's not a spell removal.

 

 

Spell Removals vs. Magic Resistance (divine spell)

Within V2.9 I made MR spell a spell protection (e.g. removeable by Spell Thrust), but considering it's an Alteration spell I think I'll restore vanilla's behaviour. Do you agree?

 

 

Lich's immunities

Ages ago I proposed to replace immunity to spells of 1-5 level with 50% magic resistance, does anyone like it?

It is important to note that within SR Stinking Cloud and Cloudkill don't affect undead creatures (thus it won't break SCS AI if it uses Cloudkill on self), and this chnge would allow Breach to affect them even without the sub-optimal SCS tweak. Anyway, this is not something that needs to be discussed before V3.

[DavidW]

Lich's immunities

Ages ago I proposed to replace immunity to spells of 1-5 level with 50% magic resistance, does anyone like it?

It is important to note that within SR Stinking Cloud and Cloudkill don't affect undead creatures (thus it won't break SCS AI if it uses Cloudkill on self), and this chnge would allow Breach to affect them even without the sub-optimal SCS tweak.

 

Web, Fireball, Skull Trap, Lightning Bolt and Ice Storm will no longer be safe-cast spells for liches, and it will become sensible for liches to cast Globe of Invulnerability, whereas previously they could safely not bother, so there are quite serious AI implications (albeit only for SCS - vanilla and Tactics don't make explicit use of these kind of things).

[Shaitan]

Lich's immunities

Ages ago I proposed to replace immunity to spells of 1-5 level with 50% magic resistance, does anyone like it?

It is important to note that within SR Stinking Cloud and Cloudkill don't affect undead creatures (thus it won't break SCS AI if it uses Cloudkill on self), and this chnge would allow Breach to affect them even without the sub-optimal SCS tweak.

 

Web, Fireball, Skull Trap, Lightning Bolt and Ice Storm will no longer be safe-cast spells for liches, and it will become sensible for liches to cast Globe of Invulnerability, whereas previously they could safely not bother, so there are quite serious AI implications (albeit only for SCS - vanilla and Tactics don't make explicit use of these kind of things).

Yes I'd rather not impose 50% MR but keep it at immunity to level 1-5. Atleast make it a seperate component...

 

Cheers

[Demivrgvs]

Liches immunities was the least important part of my last post and that's the only one to which I'm receiving feedback.

[Salk]

My Former Long Post

 

I start from the bottom.

 

As line of principle I am against spell immunities Lvl x-Lvl y so I'd rather see a fixed Magic Resistance for liches (and everyone else for that matter).

 

I agree about restoring MR's vanilla behaviour.

 

I also like your changes to Lower Resistance except that in my opinion it should bypass spell protections for gameplay reasons (the spell needs this extra kick to be worth memorizing it).

[Jarno Mikkola]

Pierce Magic...

Pierce Magic does sounds to me like something that can pierce things like Protection from Evil, Resist Fear, Chaotic Commands, Death Ward, Fire Shields, Free Action, Protection from Magic Energy, Protection from the Elements are all effects. What do you think?

Good idea.

 

Lower Resistance

As we decided to not allow multiple schools I've made it an Alteration spell.

Fine.

 

Last but not least, this spell shouldn't bypass spell protections imo, as it's not a spell removal.

No, but it should bypass most of them, and magic resistance.

 

Lich's immunities

Ages ago I proposed to replace immunity to spells of 1-5 level with 50% magic resistance, does anyone like it?

As no doubtedly said before, that's bad in my oppinion.

 

And this change would allow Breach to affect them even without the sub-optimal SCS tweak. Anyway, this is not something that needs to be discussed before V3.

Well, can't that be achived by also making the Breach's secondary projectile a 6th level spell.

[Shaitan]

Pierce Magic

On a completely different note, I just come up with an idea to make Pierce Magic a little more unique like I did for Pierce Shield (which removes combat protections within SR). What about making it remove specific protections? Pierce Magic does sounds to me like something that can pierce things like Protection from Evil, Resist Fear, Chaotic Commands, Death Ward, Fire Shields, Free Action, Protection from Magic Energy, Protection from the Elements are all effects. What do you think?

 

It is important to note that Pierce Magic/Shield would work slightly different than Breach, as both these spells are also spell removals. They are considered antimagic attacks (like Breach used to be) and thus bypass spell protections.

 

Fine idea.

 

And speaking of these spells, is there anyone who use them to lower magic resistance?

 

Yes

 

Pierce Shield

I never received much feedback on SR's Pierce Shield, was it a welcome improvement?

 

I never got to use it much, but I liked what I saw.

 

Lower Resistance

As we decided to not allow multiple schools I've made it an Alteration spell (a la IWD/NWN and 3rd editions, it was both Abj and Alt). I consider it more an Alteration rather than an Abjuration because it also affects natural resistance and priest's Magic Resistance is an Alteration spell. Furthermore, Abjurers have tons of 5th level spells whereas Transmuters have not a single one except this; it's not as important as the other aspects, but it matters imo.

I've also changed it's progression from 20% +1% per level (instead of vanilla's 10% +1%/lvl) to 2% per caster level. This makes caster level much more important.

Last but not least, this spell shouldn't bypass spell protections imo, as it's not a spell removal.

 

 

Spell Removals vs. Magic Resistance (divine spell)

Within V2.9 I made MR spell a spell protection (e.g. removeable by Spell Thrust), but considering it's an Alteration spell I think I'll restore vanilla's behaviour. Do you agree?

 

Sounds reasonable to me, it is divine after all

 

Lich's immunities

Ages ago I proposed to replace immunity to spells of 1-5 level with 50% magic resistance, does anyone like it?

It is important to note that within SR Stinking Cloud and Cloudkill don't affect undead creatures (thus it won't break SCS AI if it uses Cloudkill on self), and this chnge would allow Breach to affect them even without the sub-optimal SCS tweak. Anyway, this is not something that needs to be discussed before V3.

Ok, I still think it's a no-go.

 

Cheers

[amanasleep]

I just thought of something worth noting in this context. There is already a "Greater Breach" in vanilla:

 

One of the Wish spell's options applies Breach to all non-party creatures, and another applies Breach to all creatures.

 

At least one of these options usually comes up with an 18 Wis caster, so it's pretty reliable in combat.

 

Nothing can stop this Breach, AFAIK.

 

I tend to cast this instead of Spellstrike.

[Ardanis]

Pierce Magic

I'd stay out of breach-like effects. It pierces magic, not protections. Add penalty to save, small spellcasting failure, whatever, but don't make it a cheap anti-lich Breach.

 

Lower Resistance

Yes to everything you've said.

 

Pierce Shield

Don't recall using it, but likely will employ in ToB, so yes, the change is good.

 

Spell Removals vs. Magic Resistance (divine spell)

Within V2.9 I made MR spell a spell protection (e.g. removeable by Spell Thrust), but considering it's an Alteration spell I think I'll restore vanilla's behaviour. Do you agree?

I don't care that much, but agree.

 

Lich's immunities

Don't touch liches!

[Kalindor]

I think that multiple castings of Lower Resistance should not be cumulative. That maxes the lowering by 40%, which does help a lot vs. heavily magic resistant creatures but still leaves them some magic resistance left. Against some monsters like Abazigal and some demons it is too easy to unleash a sequencer with 2-3 Lower Resistances, Time Stop, and then blast them into oblivion.

[DrAzTiK]

Pierce Magic

==> effectively I think this spell need a litlle boost, after all it's a level 6 spell. (I don't use it at all when I have KWW)

I like your proposal.

If you are planning to remove AoE of Pierce Magic, why not also increase % of lower resistance? (2%/level as lower resistance)

 

 

Pierce Shield

Nice spell now .

 

 

Lich's immunities

Web, Fireball, Skull Trap, Lightning Bolt and Ice Storm will no longer be safe-cast spells for liches, and it will become sensible for liches to cast Globe of Invulnerability, whereas previously they could safely not bother, so there are quite serious AI implications (albeit only for SCS - vanilla and Tactics don't make explicit use of these kind of things).

So what about an immmunity to level 1-4 ? (in fact, liches are already naturally immune to most powerfull L5 spell like chaos, domination, cloud kill etc...)

[DrAzTiK]

I think that multiple castings of Lower Resistance should not be cumulative. That maxes the lowering by 40%, which does help a lot vs. heavily magic resistant creatures but still leaves them some magic resistance left. Against some monsters like Abazigal and some demons it is too easy to unleash a sequencer with 2-3 Lower Resistances, Time Stop, and then blast them into oblivion.

 

I am totally agree. RM is no more an real advantage fo ennemy with actual version of LR.

[amanasleep]

Spell Thrust (3rd lvl, Abjuration): 5' radius AoE, removes all 5th lvl or lower spell protections. Works against MGoI, bypasses Liches and Rakshasas immunities. (I find this spell too powerful as AoE + multiple removal is too much for such a low level imo)

 

Secret Word (4th lvl, Abjuration): 5' radius AoE, removes one 8th lvl or lower spell protection. Works against GoI, bypasses Liches and Rakshasas immunities.

Breach (5th lvl, Abjuration): 1 target, removes all combat protection. Doesn't bypasses Liches and Rakshasas immunities. Doesn't bypasses Spell Deflection/Turning.

 

Pierce Magic (6th lvl, Abjuration): 1 target, removes one 8th lvl or lower spell protection, plus -x% magic resistance. Bypasses Rakshasas immunities.

 

Warding Whip (7th lvl, Abjuration): 1 target, removes three 8th lvl or lower spell protection. Bypasses Rakshasas immunities.

 

Ruby Ray of Reversal (7th lvl, Alteration): 5' radius AoE, removes one 9th lvl or lower spell protection.

 

Pierce Shield (8th lvl, Abjuration): 1 target, removes one 9th lvl or lower spell protection, plus -x% magic resistance, plus Breach.

 

Spellstrike (9th lvl, Abjuration): 10' radius AoE, removes all spell protections.

 

ST and SW should not bypass Lich or Rakshasa immunities. In SCS2 Breach does bypass Lich and Rakshasa immunities but IMO shouldn't. Likewise Pierce Magic, Warding Whip, and RRR should not bypass Rakshasa immunities. This is perhaps a pretty hard line on Rakshasas, making them all but invulnerable to SPR. But IMO I prefer this to making them vulnerable to all SPR. Of course this means that a Rakshasa with II is immune to everything except Spellstrike (and Wish). If you happen to be under the SoA level cap then it's tough to affect a Rakshasa with the standard buffs (Pro: Fire, PfME, PfMW, etc.). PW: Blind used to be great but SCS2 removed the AoE. That leaves Symbol: Stun as the best way to deal with Rakshasas.

 

Similarly with Liches and Breach, I think that they should be immune to it mostly to provide a unique challenge (and you can still Breach them with Wish if you really want to). They can certainly be defeated without Breach (as can any enemy mage).

 

Question: you list RRR as not bypassing Rakshasa immunities. Did you mean it to?

 

Pierce Shield with added Breach: Not certain what the point is. Once you Breach them the SPR and MR reduction is redundant. All you really care about is the high level Breach. Not certain how best to improve it though, as it's too weak in current form.

[Ardanis]

I'm against spells penetrating creatures' natural immunities to spell levels. Guess you all know it by now anyway

 

Still, since I'm not forced to antimagic a rakshasa I see no big issue. I'll just pretend they're immune and won't resort to what I'm not fond of.