1PP compatibility

[Lollorian]

This thread follows a note by Mike1072 here about IR-1PP compatibility, that since IR contains some of 1PP's components, it'd be redundant to install 1PP's components over IR.

 

BUT, but, but ...

 

In the current BWP8 install order, IR gets installed pretty early (even before BGT for that matter), so while it may install 1PP's components early, any items introduced by mods installed AFTER IR would remain unaffected (if those 1PP components aren't used later)

 

Now IF the 1PP components are used after IR (like it is now), it leads to a conflict of bams, paperdolls and avatars. An example of which can be seen here.

 

Basically, what seems to happen is ... IR patches vanilla shields to BGI paperdolls, mod items (shields) get installed, then 1PP re-patches the vanilla AND mod shields again, cancelling out IR's patching and resulting in vanilla shields with BGII paperdolls/avatars and mod shields with normal stuff (since they weren't patched by IR)

 

The solution to this to attain patching nirvana would be:

• Install IR later and not use the 1PP components - This would help in getting everything patched, but presently this cannot be done because IR is recommended to be installed before the BIG BGII mods (TDD, SoS, NeJ etc) cause they use vanilla items as a reference. This also creates a problem in that IR doesn't modify the BGI items (from BGT) since BGT gets installed AFTER the BIG BGII mods (Leomar had proposed making BGI item modification and BGII item modification into separate components, but since that hasn't been addressed yet ...)
  
• Install the 1PP components, but modify IR so that it doesn't install the 1PP components that IT has - This seems to the practical solution at the moment since it can be easily done by the BWP Fixpack (if they know what to change/comment out etc). Basically, this way, IR only modifies the item stats and descriptions and locations and does nothing to their bams/paperdolls/avatars. This way, 1PP has a clean slate to work upon and can completely patch ALL items to perfection.
  

 

Btw, I'd also like to point out Erephine's argument in this thread about not including 1PP's components in your mod but checking whether 1PP is installed instead (ofcourse, that's a small mod they're talking about and IR's like ... DA ITAMZ MOD!!! but the argument still stands)

 

Thanks,

Lol

[Demivrgvs]

Well, this is a quite complex issue I have to discuss with Mike but I can say a few things.

 

Having IR only modify the item stats and descriptions and locations and do nothing to their bams/paperdolls/avatars isn't a solution imo. The problem is that IR really needs 1PP components and assigning bams/paperdolls/avatars is indeed an integral part of IR, but I'm failry sure 1PP wouldn't patch IR's items correctly (unless changed specifically for it). Few examples:

- Dragon Scale Shield uses 1PP new paperdoll, and I assigned custom colors to it (NOTE that 1PP let me use some color entries that are unusable in vanilla). Removing 1PP from IR would end up with a shield with a strange color pattern imo.

- Reflection Shield is now a buckler instead of a medium shield (with 1PP animation, BGI paperdolls, and cutom assigned colors). 1PP cannot patch it correctly.

- 1PP patches all medium/large shields to use BGI look, while IR doesn't for various reasons. Avatars are unchanged, thus I didn't liked the end result (paperdolls don't match avatars) and using all types of paperdolls allow more variety.

- ...

 

 

Btw, I'd also like to point out Erephine's argument in this thread about not including 1PP's components in your mod but checking whether 1PP is installed instead (ofcourse, that's a small mod they're talking about and IR's like ... DA ITAMZ MOD!!! but the argument still stands)

Well, Erephine's argument is about including 1PP shield components within a single kit mod. There's quite a big difference between a kit mod (which shouldn't have much to do with shields) and a mod which is intended to mod every single shield in the game in all aspects (background, location, animation, bam, ...). Not to mention in this case 1PP would have to be installed before IR, which isn't a problem for me but I think it is for a BWP install.

[Lollorian]

... using all types of paperdolls allow more variety.

That I agree

 

Not to mention in this case 1PP would have to be installed before IR, which isn't a problem for me but I think it is for a BWP install.

The point of Erephine's comment was exactly that, and until BWP7, 1PP was installed at the helm of the install (before IR too ) so we didn't have these problems.

 

But the BWP guys themselves noticed that 1PP "could" patch mod items too and moved it lower down the install order. That's when this thing got noticed (but I haven't seen anyone else either confirming or challenging this though )

 

So, in the present case, what do you propose be done?? Cause looking at the pics in the thread i linked, ya can't say that this line ...

Avatars are unchanged, thus I didn't liked the end result (paperdolls don't match avatars)

... remains valid right now

 

But now, I kinda understand why IR needs to keep its 1PP components. I get the idea that IR is kinda like the BG2Fixpack ... it tries to make the original game better, and it WILL only make the original game better. And because of that goal, it has some advantages that other mods may not have, like the luxury of overwriting v/s patching (which I totally agree with respect to updating item descriptions ) and trying be able to be a standalone mod that completely overhauls the vanilla game, hence would need everything within it (and mold them to IR's use) rather than being dependent on another mod to be fully usable.

 

Thanks for the explanations.

 

(oh yeah, btw, have ya given any thought to Leomar's idea to separate the BGI and BGII components?? Now that would make this great li'l thing fully compatible with the BWP

 

Cheers,

Lol

[Mike1072]

At this point, neither 1PP nor IR require a certain install order to apply graphical changes to mod-added shields, as the mod items themselves aren't patched, only the default animations that both vanilla and mod items use are changed.

 

Going off of memory:

• 1PP Legacy Shields changes the default avatar animations on the game screen to look like BG1 shields, with the exception of large shields (round bucklers and small shields, curved medium shields)
  
• 1PPv2 changes the default paperdolls to look like BG1 shields (round bucklers and small shields, curved medium shields, rectangular large shields)
  
• 1PP Legacy Shields applies patches to specific vanilla buckler .itms to change their animation from small shield to buckler (in BG2, the buckler and small shield animations were identical, so they didn't bother setting bucklers to a separate animation)
  
• 1PPv2 applies patches to specific vanilla items to give them different inventory icons and colours
  

IR does all of the above, plus:

• IR includes the unfinished/beta 1PP shields content. What this does is reintroduce paperdolls for the BG2 medium and large shields plus add 5 new shield paperdolls, all as mod-added animations. IR uses the BG2-style spiky medium shield animation from this (c0) for its medium shields, and uses 3 of the other animations (c1, c4, and c6) for certain shields. There is a good image in the shields.rar archive that shows all shield paperdolls side-by-side with avatars [pre-legacy shields].
  
• IR manages the animations, icons, and colours for its items
  

So, you should not be getting different behaviour with regard to mod items by installing IR without 1PP, but as a notable difference, the vanilla medium shields you run across will be spiky.

 

@Demi: with legacy shields, you should be able to match BG1 paperdolls to BG1 avatars, shouldn't you? (with the exception of large shields)

[Lollorian]

Well, that explains a lot then

At this point, neither 1PP nor IR require a certain install order to apply graphical changes to mod-added shields, as the mod items themselves aren't patched, only the default animations that both vanilla and mod items use are changed.

I don't seem to understand this Won't this create inconsistencies between mods with custom item bams and their 1PP-ified paperdolls??

 

And going by that, why do some guys fuss about "using" 1PP's content (while they could very well use the changed vanilla bams and get the same result)?? Does IR-1PP add even more animations or something?? Or just overwrite the vanilla bams?? (is this like the fixed animation slots problem??)

 

And if the 1PP legacy components aren't installed would (for example) the yellow medium shield from Aurora (in the pic thread) look like the vanilla spiky medium shield or like it does right now??

 

So, you should not be getting different behaviour with regard to mod items by installing IR without 1PP, but as a notable difference, the vanilla medium shields you run across will be spiky.

That's what I've been getting Vanilla medium shields have the spiky paperdoll and avatar but have their item bams changed to non-spiky BGI medium shields

 

@Demi: with legacy shields, you should be able to match BG1 paperdolls to BG1 avatars, shouldn't you? (with the exception of large shields)

And that also matches what I'm getting, large shields have the vanilla avatar but the paperdoll and item bam match up (but Erephine has said that its intended as large shield rectangular avatars aren't made yet )

 

Now, the more confusing issue in this is the helms. Would someone be kind enough to explain those?? Unlike the shields (which seems to be an isolated case ), this is also being experienced by ClassicAdventures games.

 

Cheers,

Lol

[Mike1072]

Maybe it'd help if there was a visual aid to show the differences between vanilla and the 1PP stuff used in IR. Here is a comparison of vanilla paperdolls and avatars to 1PP paperdolls and 1PP legacy avatars. If you use IR or the components from the 1PP installer, the vanilla paperdolls and animations will be replaced by the 1PP ones. Mod-added shields use D1-D4 animations, which means they will automatically get BG1-style paperdolls with matching avatars (except for large shields, who are stuck with the vanilla avatar for now). Neither IR nor 1PP need to patch these mod shields. Whether the shields' inventory icons match with BG1 animations depends on the individual mod, but IR does not behave differently from 1PP in this respect.

 

To make sure I've been clear, do not install the equivalent 1PP components over top of IR. Doing so causes issues like you described (medium shield icon/animation mismatches) among other things. If you have IR, you shouldn't be missing out on anything by not installing them.

 

As far as helmets go, I believe they are messed up (i.e. paperdolls don't correspond with avatars) in the vanilla game. The unfinished 1PP helmets component that IR incorporates tries to fix this, I believe, but... it's unfinished. It appears human helmet paperdolls are left unchanged. If you wanted, you could revert all of the other helmets to be equally unfixed by commenting out the line in IR's main_component.tpa that installs them - search for "helmets".

[Lollorian]

WOW!!! The visual aid (and the explanation) did help ... A LOT!!!

 

I now have a much greater understanding of the problem (as well as how mod items/paperdolls/avatars work )

 

So, all this was just a mix of duplicate components and some unfinished content?? I can ignore unfinished content IF I know it IS unfinished content ... so thank you for lettin me know

 

The visual aid also increased my respect for Erephine's work like ... ten times!!!

 

Here's to hoping that the unfinished contents get finished soon

 

Anyway, now onto some other stuff ... In the visual aid, I see that the vanilla D1 and D4 paperdolls aren't used. Is this because of some max limit to paperdolls or something??

 

And what about updated 1PP components?? There have been lotsa changes since IRv2 got out (25 Nov 2008 ... OMG almost a year )

 

And finally, what about mod items that need/could use those components?? Since IR doesn't patch mod items, and it gets installed pretty early ...

 

Thanks for all the answers.

Lol

[Mike1072]

I kind of fudged the vanilla D1 paperdoll in that image - what it's supposed to show is that bucklers used to use the same animation as small shields (D2).

 

Anyway, now onto some other stuff ... In the visual aid, I see that the vanilla D1 and D4 paperdolls aren't used. Is this because of some max limit to paperdolls or something??

The vanilla paperdolls are used in the vanilla game. When 1PP is installed, they get replaced with the 1PP ones. If you're wondering why they weren't left in while the new paperdolls and avatars were added as custom animations and all items were patched to match the new animations... well, you'd have to ask Erephine, but my guess is because 1) that's a lot more work and 2) that provides less of a guarantee that you won't see ugly graphics again.

 

And what about updated 1PP components?? There have been lotsa changes since IRv2 got out (25 Nov 2008 ... OMG almost a year )

As far as I know, of the components included in IR, only v3 Paperdolls has been updated since that time. Feel free to install it over top of IR - that won't cause any problems. The new 1PP components that have been released (Avatar Fixes, Thieves Galore) are not included in IR and should be installed separately.

 

And finally, what about mod items that need/could use those components?? Since IR doesn't patch mod items, and it gets installed pretty early ...

I don't understand what the problem is here. There are no global patches required for 1PP content, and the few specific cases where individual mod items are altered by 1PP are included in separate components of the 1PP installer: Flame Short Swords mod item patches and Colourable Quarterstaves mod patches. If mods want to check for the presence of 1PP components and modify their behaviour based on the result, they can do that so long as the 1PP content is installed before they are.

[Demivrgvs]

@Demi: with legacy shields, you should be able to match BG1 paperdolls to BG1 avatars, shouldn't you? (with the exception of large shields)

Yep, I should be able to do it. Actually, for V3 I was hoping to do even more, I'd like to have both versions (Legacy Shield and fixed BG2-like shields) of small shields and medium shields to add more variety. What about renaming 1PP Lecagy Shield avatar/paperdoll files from D1, D2, D3 to D5, D6 D7 respectively? I haven't tested if it works but it would be really cool imo.

 

Regarding helms instead I do remember that simply installing 1PP caused a little mess in terms of avatar-paperdoll matching (but I'm talking about ages ago), and within IR I ended up doing quite a lot of mix. IR uses some both vanilla and 1PP animations/paperdolls, but I think I also chose some old 1PP material which was changed in later versions. If IR is installed without 1PP I'm almost sure what I did should guarantee a correct paperdoll/avatar matching (because it does in my install).

 

P.S Am I wrong or Erephine recently added a new animation for the helmet with the cross-like fissure?

[Lollorian]

Actually, for V3 I was hoping to do even more, I'd like to have both versions (Legacy Shield and fixed BG2-like shields) of small shields and medium shields to add more variety. What about renaming 1PP Lecagy Shield avatar/paperdoll files from D1, D2, D3 to D5, D6 D7 respectively? I haven't tested if it works but it would be really cool imo.

Wow! Do you read minds?? Cause that's exactly what I was thinking when I asked why D1 and D4 weren't used

 

P.S Am I wrong or Erephine recently added a new animation for the helmet with the cross-like fissure?

I you're talking about the second helmet type in the pics, I'm not sure but i'm seeing them for the first time myself (didn't see those paperdolls in my BWP6 install)

 

Actually, even the first horned helm paperdoll is a first time for me (just goes to show that you won't know something's missing when you have a BWP install )

 

But if this turns out to be new though ... oh boy

 

Cheers,

Lol

[Salk]

Regarding helms instead I do remember that simply installing 1PP caused a little mess in terms of avatar-paperdoll matching...

 

It still happens, at least for my F/M/C character.

 

The helm is misaligned and the final result is really unpleasant.

[Jarno Mikkola]

Regarding helms instead I do remember that simply installing 1PP caused a little mess in terms of avatar-paperdoll matching...

It still happens, at least for my F/M/C character.

 

The helm is misaligned and the final result is really unpleasant.

With or without the 1PPv2.x's component 1?

[Salk]

Regarding helms instead I do remember that simply installing 1PP caused a little mess in terms of avatar-paperdoll matching...

It still happens, at least for my F/M/C character.

 

The helm is misaligned and the final result is really unpleasant.

With or without the 1PPv2.x's component 1?

 

Without.

 

Together with IR, I install the following separate components from 1PP:

 

- 1PP v3: Avatar Fixes

- Thieves Galore

- Flaming Short Swords

- Female Dwarves

- Extended Palette Entries