A question

[Guest newguest01]

Grants Spell Imm.:Alteration immunity to Time Stop?

 

 

Edit: I hope you don't mind, I've added a "subtitle" to make this topic more "visible" to whoever may like to discuss this.

[Ardanis]

No - Time Stop is considered by the game as a self-targeted effect, not directly affecting other creatures.

 

Hm, actually I think it can be a right move, as only Evocation, Abjuration, Divination and Necromancy SI's are generally used. Though I foresee it's gonna be tricky to achieve.

[Demivrgvs]

Well well...I was all for it long time ago, now I don't know, I would have to re-think everything once again.

 

I discussed this here when such a tweak was suggested as a possible add-on for Fixpack.

[Jarno Mikkola]

The Spell Immunity has it's limits, one being the spell level... for example the Spell Strike brings down the SI:Abjuration and everything else too. So if you wish to lower the Time Stop's spell level you are welcome to... so you can make the Spell Immunity:Alteration to provide immunity to the spell, but otherwise, you need to leave it as is.

[Demivrgvs]

The Spell Immunity has it's limits, one being the spell level... for example the Spell Strike brings down the SI:Abjuration and everything else too. So if you wish to lower the Time Stop's spell level you are welcome to... so you can make the Spell Immunity:Alteration to provide immunity to the spell, but otherwise, you need to leave it as is.

? Are you suggesting to move Time Stop to a lower level?

 

Anyway, I'm open to discuss this matter, but the first thing I'd like to say is that I hate Spell Immunity with all my heart, because in some cases it's almost pathetic (eg. SI:Illusion), in some cases it's inconsistent (SI:Abj doesn't protect from pratically all abjurations except Dispel Magic and Imprisonment), and last but not least it's clearly overpowered for its spell level.

 

Long Time ago I was for this change because I felt (and still feel) that the way Time Stop is implemented within BG makes it really too powerful (no other 9th lvl spell can compare with it) and having SI:Alt stop it could be interesting and rebalance TS. On the other hand I'm not sure that "nerfing" TS via SI is a good idea mainly because of the following things:

1) it means making an overpowered 5th lvl spell even more overpowered

2) the AI wouldn't take into account

3) even if taken into account it leads to a strange "situation". Magical attacks are temporarily stopped, but physical attacks are not, thus a F/M under SI would actually wish to have enemy mages cast Time Stop because he would then unleash a flurry of hits against helpless allies of those mages.

 

I may live with 1), but I can't live with 2) unless SCS/RR takes into account (highly unlikely) and I'm pretty sure 3) is a serious almost game-breaking issue.

 

 

P.S I do suggested within these forums to stop physical attacks during Time Stop long time before Improved Anvil implemented it. Thus if we ever want to discuss something like that I won't have to fear to be accused of stoling ideas from that mod.

[Jarno Mikkola]

? Are you suggesting to move Time Stop to a lower level?

No, not me, but if you ever do, only then you can let the SI:A protect against it... :)

 

P.S I do suggested within these forums to stop physical attacks during Time Stop long time before Improved Anvil implemented it. Thus if we ever want to discuss something like that I won't have to fear to be accused of stoling ideas from that mod.

Actually it's more realistic to make the mage blind while the Time Stop is in effect than remove the physical attacks... Why? Cause the speed of light only 299 792 458 m/s, not instant.

[yarpen]

Does protection from divination protects you from True Seeing?

[Ardanis]

thus a F/M under SI would actually wish to have enemy mages cast Time Stop because he would then unleash a flurry of hits against helpless allies of those mages.

This actually was my key strategy in defeating the Five in Ascension. Sendai casted TS and, being under the effect of 5-round long ability, I could whack away Illasera.

[Demivrgvs]

P.S I do suggested within these forums to stop physical attacks during Time Stop long time before Improved Anvil implemented it. Thus if we ever want to discuss something like that I won't have to fear to be accused of stoling ideas from that mod.

Actually it's more realistic to make the mage blind while the Time Stop is in effect than remove the physical attacks...

I didn't suggested it for "realism" but for consistency (if spellcasting is halted physical attacks should be too) and balance (almost all the cheesy exploits during TS involve physical attacks, such as using mind flayer's int drain attack against helpless targets).

 

Does protection from divination protects you from True Seeing?

Yep, and if there was an Uber Greater True Seeing of 9th lvl it would be stopped too.

 

thus a F/M under SI would actually wish to have enemy mages cast Time Stop because he would then unleash a flurry of hits against helpless allies of those mages.

This actually was my key strategy in defeating the Five in Ascension. Sendai casted TS and, being under the effect of 5-round long ability, I could whack away Illasera.

Isn't that "stupid"? I mean, the opponent casts Time Stop and instead of being terrorized by it you happily welcome it as a saving grace!

[Jarno Mikkola]

Actually it's more realistic to make the mage blind while the Time Stop is in effect than remove the physical attacks...

I didn't suggested it for "realism" but for consistency (if spellcasting is halted physical attacks should be too) and balance (almost all the cheesy exploits during TS involve physical attacks, such as using mind flayer's int drain attack against helpless targets).

Well, the physical attacks are halted during the Time Stop, until all their effects are cumulated at the end of the time period, just like all the spells, just like the spell description says...

Or is the caster not able to cast any spells during the Time Stop???

[Ardanis]

Isn't that "stupid"? I mean, the opponent casts Time Stop and instead of being terrorized by it you happily welcome it as a saving grace!

Not stupid. I guess if Demogorgon, Baltazar and Melissan can be immune to TS (and thus welcome it as a saving grace!), so can I for a change

I, however, can see the abuse when it can be done almost right from the start, not in the final boss fight.

Otoh, AI iirc does attack physically during TS, so unless I remember it wrong, SCS will be partially screwed.

[yarpen]

I think that there should be a possibility of being unaffected by Time Stop, but 5th level spell... I'm not sure about this. I know that you can spend this spell on being immune to abjuration on illusions... but still that's 5th level spell. Demi, weren't you thinking about moving it to 6th level?

 

Also: what about Protection From Magic Scroll? What do you think about making character affected by this one immune to TS?

[Demivrgvs]

Isn't that "stupid"? I mean, the opponent casts Time Stop and instead of being terrorized by it you happily welcome it as a saving grace!

Not stupid. I guess if Demogorgon, Baltazar and Melissan can be immune to TS (and thus welcome it as a saving grace!), so can I for a change

I, however, can see the abuse when it can be done almost right from the start, not in the final boss fight.

You have a point, but when it comes to the final fight, and we're talking about a bhaalspawn who've almost reached god-like status I may be fine with it. I'm not fine with this when it's a "common" behaviour.

 

Otoh, AI iirc does attack physically during TS, so unless I remember it wrong, SCS will be partially screwed.

Yep, that was one of my three points against the suggested tweak to SI:Alt.

 

I think that there should be a possibility of being unaffected by Time Stop, but 5th level spell... I'm not sure about this. I know that you can spend this spell on being immune to abjuration on illusions... but still that's 5th level spell. Demi, weren't you thinking about moving it to 6th level?

No, I haven't such a plan...though restoring Spell Shield would bring back the 24 spell limit issue.

 

Speaking of which, what I'd really like to do for v4 is to convince David (or find a way to make it myself, as he suggested how to do it some time ago) to replace all instances of SI:Abj with Spell Shield (making it protect from Dispel too if necessary), and all instances of SI:Div with Non-Detection (which will work in a completely new way as per PnP). Then we may move Spell Immunity to a higher lvl and keep its overpowering effectiveness, or we could even get rid of this sick spell that never existed in PnP (where it makes the caster immune to a single spell)

 

Also: what about Protection From Magic Scroll? What do you think about making character affected by this one immune to TS?

Personally I'm against it because only the player would take advantage of this tweak...

[Jarno Mikkola]

Also: what about Protection From Magic Scroll? What do you think about making character affected by this one immune to TS?

Time Stop is not magical or even super natural ability used on a target that is a creature, the target is the time itself, thus no magical protection can protect you from it.

 

Now, I could see a a spell alike the 9th level Freedom be able to protect from Time Stop, just like the 'Potion of Total Freedom^TM@IMP'. Is that balanced? -Is not my business to be the judge of that, but properly not, so I wouldn't go and change this.

[yarpen]

Speaking of which, what I'd really like to do for v4 is to convince David (or find a way to make it myself, as he suggested how to do it some time ago) to replace all instances of SI:Abj with Spell Shield (making it protect from Dispel too if necessary), and all instances of SI:Div with Non-Detection (which will work in a completely new way as per PnP). Then we may move Spell Immunity to a higher lvl and keep its overpowering effectiveness, or we could even get rid of this sick spell that never existed in PnP (where it makes the caster immune to a single spell)

Sounds like a good plan for me. I'm afraid that SCS scripts are still far from being powerfull enemies (with exception of BANDITS) and David will not allow to decrease power of his wizards. Still, you know what I'm thinking about wizzies, especially those who are immune to Breach/Pierce Magic.