A question

[Salk]

P.S theoretically using Non-detection instead of SI:Div would also make un-necessary the "Spell Protection Removals bypass Improved Invisibility" tweak, but that would probably require SCS to slightly change its scripts, thus I'm not suggesting it don't worry.

 

How do you propose to remove Non-detection? Since it's not a spell protection, currently the only thing I can think of to strip this is a successful Dispel Magic.

 

Non-Detection will pratically be a SI:Div but divinations themselves may pierce it (if the protected creature fails a save).

[Jarno Mikkola]

- then you can stack multiple SI to make it even more powerful

Isn't the best solution then just make the spell protect from itself---> No stacking, as the spell can't usually be casted multiple times---> Power-check(And no cheating)

[DavidW]

I think Duckfeet got my point of view quite well. Spell Immunity as it's used by SCS is not overpowered (*), but the spell "per se" is really insanely overpowered for its level.

 

Few examples:

- SI:Enchantment alone is more powerful than Chaotic Commands (a 5th lvl spell) as it also grants immunity to things such as Greater Malison.

- SI:Necromancy alone pratically is Death Ward (a 4th lvl spell) plus immunity to Horrid Wilting (by many considered THE damage-dealing spell), Skull Trap, Energy Drain, Vampiric Touch, ...

- SI:Evocation allow the caster to throw on his head any sort of non-friendly AoE spell (e.g. Meteor Swarm, Cloudkill, Web, Ice Storm, ...)

- ...

 

OK, I get the point more clearly now. I still don't really agree though. Chaotic Commands and Death Ward have the crucial advantages of being castable on third parties, and I don't find it terribly overpowered for a fifth level spell to allow party-friendly evocations.

 

Incidentally, it's not quite true that SCS only uses SI:Abj and SI:Div. I periodically shove a protection from evocation or conjuration into a prebuff routine. It wouldn't make a profound difference to SCS if that was blocked in SR, though.

[Demivrgvs]

I think Duckfeet got my point of view quite well. Spell Immunity as it's used by SCS is not overpowered (*), but the spell "per se" is really insanely overpowered for its level.

 

Few examples:

- SI:Enchantment alone is more powerful than Chaotic Commands (a 5th lvl spell) as it also grants immunity to things such as Greater Malison.

- SI:Necromancy alone pratically is Death Ward (a 4th lvl spell) plus immunity to Horrid Wilting (by many considered THE damage-dealing spell), Skull Trap, Energy Drain, Vampiric Touch, ...

- SI:Evocation allow the caster to throw on his head any sort of non-friendly AoE spell (e.g. Meteor Swarm, Cloudkill, Web, Ice Storm, ...)

- ...

 

OK, I get the point more clearly now. I still don't really agree though. Chaotic Commands and Death Ward have the crucial advantages of being castable on third parties,...

I know, but does it make up for both spells being weaker than the relative SI? And the issue imo is that a single 5th lvl spell can do more things than 4-5 other spells of the same level. Having a single SI memorized is like having an uber slot where you've put a spell which can cast Greater Chaotic Commands, or Greater Death Ward, or Greter Non-detection, and so on, depending on the situation. That is another terrific advantage imo.

 

...and I don't find it terribly overpowered for a fifth level spell to allow party-friendly evocations.

I agree. But one thing is a 4th lvl spell (Minor Globe of Invulnerability) granting the ability to cast non-friendly AoE spells of 3rd lvl (Fireball, Web, ...), another is a single 5th lvl spell which lets you cast Meteor Swarm on your head, while you happily stay within an Incendiary Cloud, a Cloudkill, an Acid Fog, and a Web spell, all at once.

 

And to be more clear, I think it's fine if Protection from Fire (which is 5th lvl within SR) lets the caster use Meteor Swarm and Incendiary Cloud on his head, because at least the number of spells is very limited (no Acid Fog, no Cloudkill, no Web, no Ice Storm, ...).

[DavidW]

Having a single SI memorized is like having an uber slot where you've put a spell which can cast Greater Chaotic Commands, or Greater Death Ward, or Greter Non-detection, and so on, depending on the situation. That is another terrific advantage imo.

 

There's a rather simple move you could make in SR that would solve that problem without inconveniencing SCS in the slightest: delete SI and replace it with the 8 specific subspells. (SCS already does the latter but not the former.) SCS wizards never take advantage of the ability to choose your SI on the fly.

[Jarno Mikkola]

There's a rather simple move you could make in SR that would solve that problem without inconveniencing SCS in the slightest: delete SI and replace it with the 8 specific subspells. (SCS already does the latter but not the former.) SCS wizards never take advantage of the ability to choose your SI on the fly.

Try be a Sorcerer, as you still can't select but 24 spells on level up... Better is to give the possibility to leave it, but make the mage to shape the spell first for a 6 real seconds.

[Demivrgvs]

Having a single SI memorized is like having an uber slot where you've put a spell which can cast Greater Chaotic Commands, or Greater Death Ward, or Greter Non-detection, and so on, depending on the situation. That is another terrific advantage imo.

There's a rather simple move you could make in SR that would solve that problem without inconveniencing SCS in the slightest: delete SI and replace it with the 8 specific subspells. (SCS already does the latter but not the former.) SCS wizards never take advantage of the ability to choose your SI on the fly.

Well, this would "fix" only one of the many things I've just said, and not even the most important imo.

 

There's also the issue Jarno is saying, Sorcerers would be disadvantaged (as they wouldn't be able to select it), and that's really not fair...but that may be fixable with one of Taimon's mod (scrollable spellbook).

[Jarno Mikkola]

There's also the issue Jarno is saying, Sorcerers would be disadvantaged (as they wouldn't be able to select it), and that's really not fair...but that may be fixable with one of Taimon's mod (scrollable spellbook)

It's probably not, cause it's not the spellbook interface the spells are selected from, but from the level up screen, same as the HLAs.

 

So the only good solution is to make the Spell Immunity spell to need to be pre-casted, which gives the mage the real spell like the DavidW's memorized spells, it would be best if it would be the exact same...

[Duckfeet]

Non-Detection will pratically be a SI:Div but divinations themselves may pierce it (if the protected creature fails a save).

 

So you have to sit there and wait until they fail a save, meanwhile they're invulnerable? Ugh...

 

Epic duel of the century: Archmage A vs Archmage B

Prebuff: II, Non-detect, Pro Energy, Spell Trap, Pro MW, etc.

 

Round 1! *dingding*

A: True Sight! Greater Malison!

B: True Sight! Greater Malison!

 

A: made my save

B: made my save

 

A: made my save

B: made my save

 

A: made my save. *recast ProMW*

B: made my save. *recast ProMW*

 

A: made my save.

B: made my save.

 

A: made my save.

B: made my save.

 

(audience starts throwing rocks)

[Demivrgvs]

Non-Detection will pratically be a SI:Div but divinations themselves may pierce it (if the protected creature fails a save).

So you have to sit there and wait until they fail a save, meanwhile they're invulnerable? Ugh...

It would be just like in PnP, and I don't think you would have to wait more than a few rounds.

 

The current permanent invulnerability with SI:Divination isn't much different...you need at least 2 rounds before successfully destroying SI:Div + II (actually, more than 2 rounds because you generally have to tear down another spell protection on top of it).

 

Anyway, it's not like an archmage can't do anything when the opponent is under II...never heard of AoE spells? And what about summons?

[Duckfeet]

Non-Detection will pratically be a SI:Div but divinations themselves may pierce it (if the protected creature fails a save).

So you have to sit there and wait until they fail a save, meanwhile they're invulnerable? Ugh...

It would be just like in PnP, and I don't think you would have to wait more than a few rounds.

 

The current permanent invulnerability with SI:Divination isn't much different...you need at least 2 rounds before successfully destroying SI:Div + II (actually, more than 2 rounds because you generally have to tear down another spell protection on top of it).

 

Anyway, it's not like an archmage can't do anything when the opponent is under II...never heard of AoE spells? And what about summons?

 

The difference is two rounds actively casting spells at the opponent to tear down spell protections vs 2 rounds waiting around with nothing to do. Damage-based AoE won't work with ProEnergy; Summons can't affect the target with ProMW.

 

Let's not go into how invisibility works in PnP, in PnP a player has an infinite number of nonmagical, zero-cost options to reveal an invisible attacker (throw water on the floor, close a door, scatter sand).

[Demivrgvs]

The difference is two rounds actively casting spells at the opponent to tear down spell protections vs 2 rounds waiting around with nothing to do. Damage-based AoE won't work with ProEnergy; Summons can't affect the target with ProMW.

Is the opponent a lich? Because else the issue is really non-existant. You can try with:

- Faerie Fire and Glitterdust which bypass SI:Div, and they'll bypass v4's Non-Detection too

- Mind-affecting spells (Sphere of Chaos is incredibly powerful, but Hold Monster and Confusion are not so bad)

- Symbol of Death/Stunning

- Wail of the Banshee

- Summon Nishruu (against PfMW, if its Mantle or better you'll have to wait)

- DISPEL MAGIC (Taimon finally fixed this!)

 

Against a lich all these things are useless though (that damn 2nd edition immunity to 1st-5th lvl spells), but if we're talking about an archmage than he can still try to use DISPEL/REMOVE MAGIC.

 

If the lich is under SI:Abj... well...good luck keeping your mage alive for a while.

[DavidW]

If the lich is under SI:Abj... well...good luck keeping your mage alive for a while.

 

Or use scrolls or wands to produce antimagic, or (in SR/SCS) use area-of-effect antimagic.

[Duckfeet]

Or, you can take the downtime to wipe out the opponent's party first...

 

One more very good thing about this is that Vanilla AI's response to an Imp Invis solo mage (immediately cast True Sight) won't be so inappropriate anymore, since you can't just stand there invulnerable while it bounces off your SI:D.

 

I assume Faerie Fire / Glitterdust is blocked by mGoI?

[Demivrgvs]

I assume Faerie Fire / Glitterdust is blocked by mGoI?

Indeed.