Additional priest spells

[Demivrgvs]

Also, Demi: how did you standarised Etheralness state? Is this effect available somewhere in your mod? Trough items or spells? I'm not sure if this effect is appropriate for 3rd level spell.

Right now the only place where I've used an Etherealness effect is IR's Boots of Etherealness. Right now it's relatively simple, as it makes the affected character immune to weapons (not-dispellable PfNW + PfMW) and spells (I used 100% mr but 'immunity to spell lvl' could be better), while disabling spellcasting (100% failure, but we may also disable buttons) and setting apr to 0. I don't know if my solution is "the definitive one" though, and if we want to have a standardised solution I may try to "study" it a little more. Also, I'm almost sure aVENGER worked on it too for his PnP fiends, it may be a good idea to look at what he did too.

 

That being said, I think Etherealness is too powerful to be a 3rd lvl spell, as it pratically allow a character to quickly phase into a state of almost complete invulnerability...

[Galactygon]

Well, do you mean Spellpack? I've seen BAMs which were created by KwiatW for you, and I think that you probably already covered up most of spells. Well, I was afraid of asking you about them - I still think I can do it and also add some of my spells.

 

Why do something that's already been done before unless you wish to do something different?

 

Also: well, it's not exactly a pack of spells dedicated for Divine Remixes, I think you've never seen anything about my little Faiths and Pantheons.

 

This is the first time I've heard about your mod - sounds ambitious.

 

There has been a discussion going along in the G3 workroom to tie-in DR and other spell mods by having spell mods distribute lists with a standardized format that DR automatically detects and amends the sphere lists accordingly. That discussion has evolved into an ADD_SPELL improvement so there could be a way to standardise spell filenames from different mods adding the same spell.

 

Newer versions of WeiDU do improve ADD_SPELL, so that now new spells added from different mods with the same SPELL.IDS symbol will overwrite each other. We now need to come up with a standardized list of SPELL.IDS symbols, and restart the discussion with improving DR to accommodate spells from other mods.

 

It's let's say Divine Remixes with more proper interpretation of PnP rules about priests as overall - with sphere system but also with Priest sub-classes of Crusader, Mystic and Speciality priest as Cleric kits. Speciality Priest kit is a key to obtaining one of the DR-like kit (Watcher of Helm, Morninglord of Lathander... you catch my drift) via selecting your faith in-game by obtaining one of the respective Holy Symbols.

I like this stuff. I would rather see a mod like this work off of DR than start as a completely different mod. I think it's possible to have your idea of choosing your faith be as a separate component within DR, with the aforementioned sub-classes be provided as kits. It's just better for the community, easier to keep track of, if we work off of an existing base than to restart someone else's work with a slightly different concept. It's more manageable too.

 

Are you planning for choosing faiths for the Crusader kit? ie Crusader of Helm, etc.

 

Currently I'm focusing on adding some more spells - I think it's reasonable goal. Maybe most of those ideas are bad or horrible, but I think in the end we will end-up with something like 15-20 new spells which is not bad.

Spells can always be polished and improved. There were some neat stuff in there that I haven't thought of.

 

Thanks for kind words, Galactycon. Do you know any sensible tutorial about porting spell animations from Icewind Dale? Or even better, creating spell animations? I've seen you did some, and probably you're the one of the specialists. Also: I just don't know why wouldn't you move here to G3? Ask Demi how "good" ( ) it is to have a party of raging troll-demons in your forum.

I extracted all of the spell animations from different IE games, as well as Disciples2 (there might be copyright issues for the latter).

 

The new animations you see (Web, Implosion, etc.) come from a bunch of neat tricks in Photoshop and different .vvc settings. No 3D tools, I'm 'fraid.

 

Also, Demi: how did you standarised Etheralness state? Is this effect available somewhere in your mod? Trough items or spells? I'm not sure if this effect is appropriate for 3rd level spell.

Right now the only place where I've used an Etherealness effect is IR's Boots of Etherealness. Right now it's relatively simple, as it makes the affected character immune to weapons (not-dispellable PfNW + PfMW) and spells (I used 100% mr but 'immunity to spell lvl' could be better), while disabling spellcasting (100% failure, but we may also disable buttons) and setting apr to 0. I don't know if my solution is "the definitive one" though, and if we want to have a standardised solution I may try to "study" it a little more. Also, I'm almost sure aVENGER worked on it too for his PnP fiends, it may be a good idea to look at what he did too.

 

That being said, I think Etherealness is too powerful to be a 3rd lvl spell, as it pratically allow a character to quickly phase into a state of almost complete invulnerability...

 

Some of these new states can be faked with different combinations of different opcodes. We need to develop a concept of what we want them to do, how to detect them, etc., and distribute them to various mods.

 

-Galactygon

[yarpen]

Why do something that's already been done before unless you wish to do something different?

Well, you're right. If I'd be able to use Spellpack resources, that'd save us a lot of work. I'm a bit afraid about their in-game "blending in" - that's my problem of my modding philosophy. I'd love to make my mod close to original game as possible. Uhm, but seriously, do you mean that I'd be able to use spells already done by you, Galactycon? Because in terms of modding difference between us is like woah, I remember my first steps on Infinity Scene like 5 years ago and reading stuff about Lost Crossroads.

 

This is the first time I've heard about your mod - sounds ambitious.

 

There has been a discussion going along in the G3 workroom to tie-in DR and other spell mods by having spell mods distribute lists with a standardized format that DR automatically detects and amends the sphere lists accordingly. That discussion has evolved into an ADD_SPELL improvement so there could be a way to standardise spell filenames from different mods adding the same spell.

 

Newer versions of WeiDU do improve ADD_SPELL, so that now new spells added from different mods with the same SPELL.IDS symbol will overwrite each other. We now need to come up with a standardized list of SPELL.IDS symbols, and restart the discussion with improving DR to accommodate spells from other mods.

And that is maybe my problem, because I don't want mods like TDD compatible with Faiths and Avatars. I've got some very negative emotions toward most of MegaMods, and thinking about my Cleric kits in the same list with TDD's Warlock is... terrifying. Those mods would be incompatible in conceptional way. Also, fixing up their spells and stuff would take much much longer than creating these itself - and we can always balance them through discussion and testing.

 

There aren't many spell-affecting mods currently, I think that most of things could be handled manualy. There is Spell Revision which I've wanted to use as a base platform for my mod, there is Your Spellpack... and it's the end. ;-)

 

I like this stuff. I would rather see a mod like this work off of DR than start as a completely different mod. I think it's possible to have your idea of choosing your faith be as a separate component within DR, with the aforementioned sub-classes be provided as kits. It's just better for the community, easier to keep track of, if we work off of an existing base than to restart someone else's work with a slightly different concept. It's more manageable too.

I was thinking about something similiar when I was writing my earlier post. But folks here usually don't look at continuing someone's work with much pleasure. Well, I proposed some additional components for Song and Silence (I was a huge fan of CamDawg's and team works) but there wasn't much of response. It was more like "go make your mod, leave legacy as it is".

 

Are you planning for choosing faiths for the Crusader kit? ie Crusader of Helm, etc.

Yes. Every Cleric has to choose his faith, or he will be stripped of his spellcasting and turning undead. I was thinking about granting to Crusader special ability of Spiritual Weapon - similiar to one from Divine Remixes. But I've also made it a bit stronger, granting to every weapon two additional effects similiar (but weaker of course) to those from weapons of their god's avatars. I'd also like to grant them Mastery in their deity's favourite weapon.

 

Spells can always be polished and improved. There were some neat stuff in there that I haven't thought of.

Great.

 

I extracted all of the spell animations from different IE games, as well as Disciples2 (there might be copyright issues for the latter).

 

The new animations you see (Web, Implosion, etc.) come from a bunch of neat tricks in Photoshop and different .vvc settings. No 3D tools, I'm 'fraid.

That's sad because I know few of good computer graphics whom I've already asked about making some fancy animations and they were all ok no problem that's easy. Still, you managed to do really good ones in your mod, like wow.

 

Some of these new states can be faked with different combinations of different opcodes. We need to develop a concept of what we want them to do, how to detect them, etc., and distribute them to various mods.

Well, that is why I still insist on making Spell Revision as a base platform for my humble mod. Demi did an awesome job of standarising hundreds of effects, making them easily managable and just better. Spells at overall are currently very balanced - I'm not PnP purist so it's fine for me when spell could be a bit altered from it's original shape but doesn't look just broken or overpowered. We still need to remember fact, that there were so many handbooks which introduced spells and new rules that there are many inconsistencies between them.

 

Also, Demi is known for me as a great modder with huge knowledge, skills and community support. I think it's nice when you can discuss stuff with other people.

 

That being said, I think Etherealness is too powerful to be a 3rd lvl spell, as it pratically allow a character to quickly phase into a state of almost complete invulnerability...

Yup, you're right. I'm not sure if this effect is needed so badly. I remember there was an effect of half-etherealness somewhere, I think it looked much more balanced and it maybe could be used?

 

Also, about balancing reasons: I've got dillema right now. It's about sphere access. I shouldn't mess with PnP but in current shape it looks... broken many times. For example in PnP Cleric has something like 80% of Druid's spells where Druid has 10% of amount Cleric has. Clerics have a major access to sphere of Sun (which I'd call "anti-undead spells not for clerics") and minor access to Elemental sphere. I've removed access to both of those - and their spell list looks for me far more balanced. But I'm not sure if I'm doing the right thing - do you think that sphere access should be balanced and improved? In the meaning, if author of a mod has a right of changing it in the name of Balance? I've also tried to fix some of the spells sphere allocation - but I think most of those is a form of fix, not a tweak.

 

PS. Galactycon - all your mod's links are dead.

[Ardanis]

And that is maybe my problem, because I don't want mods like TDD compatible with Faiths and Avatars. I've got some very negative emotions toward most of MegaMods, and thinking about my Cleric kits in the same list with TDD's Warlock is... terrifying. Those mods would be incompatible in conceptional way.

Do you give a damn? Imo if somebody wants to play TDD, then let them do so. If they also want to use F&A along with it - well, that's their choice. Adding anti-TDD checks into NEJ's tp2 didn't earn Vlad much fame...

[yarpen]

Adding anti-TDD checks into NEJ's tp2 didn't earn Vlad much fame...

I don't mean anti-check. I just don't want to even try to make these compatible. TDD adds spells and kits. Ok. I'm going to change all of the spells filenames so Cleric isn't going to gain them via .exe but instead of I'm using manually done .spl files which grant them their sphere access. Well, I don't get this macro stuff from Divine Remixes. -,-

[Ardanis]

Can't say I'm much 'free' in terms of mod projects I'm involved with, but if you need something coded in a rather sophisticated manner, I'd be glad to assist.

[yarpen]

Thanks Ardanis, that means a lot for me. Well, I think the problem is that I really want to at first, make stable, working version of mod and then think about compatibility, adding checks (not ANTI-checks) for mod content and stuff.

[yarpen]

Well, with Galactycon's support in case of spells, I'd be able to move to creating kits and class mechanics. I was thinking today about Crusader kit. I think I finally found the way how to make him more unique and just different from Fighter/Cleric and Paladin.

 

- He has very limited sphere access. Usually he can choose between 6-8 spells per level and most of them are healing and simple fighting buffs.

- Can use any weapon.

- Can summon Spiritual Weapon once per day. Spiritual Weapon is usually +3 weapon and has two special abilities - one combat ability and one 'while equipped' one. The only exception now is Spiritual Weapon of Crusader of Tempus: his weapon has +5 enchantment but is lacking of any other special properties. These are examples of Spiritual Weapon for standard BG2 clerics:

 

Bastard Sword +3 'Ever Watchful'

- Dispels illusion at successfull strike

- Grants immunity to mind-affecting spells

 

Mace +3 'Dawnspeaker'

- Sunscorch on-hit

- Immunity to level drain

 

Staff 'Fury of Talos'

- Deals additional 1d6 lightning damage

- Immunity to electricity

 

Those are quite powerfull, but can be summoned once per day and last only for 1 round/level.

 

- I've removed "Crusader has Warrior's THAC0", it made him too close to Paladin. Also, in his spell list there is a spell which grants him such a THAC0 value, so he don't need such a thing.

[Galactygon]

Well, you're right. If I'd be able to use Spellpack resources, that'd save us a lot of work. I'm a bit afraid about their in-game "blending in" - that's my problem of my modding philosophy. I'd love to make my mod close to original game as possible. Uhm, but seriously, do you mean that I'd be able to use spells already done by you, Galactycon?

SpellPack B6 (to be released but in beta) is much better in this regard than the earlier versions.

 

And that is maybe my problem, because I don't want mods like TDD compatible with Faiths and Avatars. I've got some very negative emotions toward most of MegaMods, and thinking about my Cleric kits in the same list with TDD's Warlock is... terrifying. Those mods would be incompatible in conceptional way. Also, fixing up their spells and stuff would take much much longer than creating these itself - and we can always balance them through discussion and testing.

I don't like most of the MegaMods either - but that doesn't mean some players will want to play it my way. Even if there are conceptual incompatibilities. Using WeiDU's ADD_SPELL command costs you nothing and you don't have to touch their stuff. On the other hand there are benefits. For example, SR started introducing spells that were done by SpellPack a long time ago. If both mods use ADD_SPELL, then a player wishing to install SR before SP would not have any problems of different spells overwriting each other.

 

And then there's the chance of new obscure spell mods springing up somewhere that would benefit from using ADD_SPELL.

 

I was thinking about something similiar when I was writing my earlier post. But folks here usually don't look at continuing someone's work with much pleasure. Well, I proposed some additional components for Song and Silence (I was a huge fan of CamDawg's and team works) but there wasn't much of response. It was more like "go make your mod, leave legacy as it is".

If you're motivated, I don't see any problems. Most of the original authors are long gone, so you will have to work with Mike.

 

Ideas can be polished. Don't let criticism or open debate distract you. It's an opportunity to get a feel for what is balancing and interesting. I don't agree with much of the specialty priests' powers, but they made it in a released package.

 

That's sad because I know few of good computer graphics whom I've already asked about making some fancy animations and they were all ok no problem that's easy.

I'm interested in who they are, maybe they could do some stuff for me.

 

Well, that is why I still insist on making Spell Revision as a base platform for my humble mod. Demi did an awesome job of standarising hundreds of effects, making them easily managable and just better. Spells at overall are currently very balanced - I'm not PnP purist so it's fine for me when spell could be a bit altered from it's original shape but doesn't look just broken or overpowered. We still need to remember fact, that there were so many handbooks which introduced spells and new rules that there are many inconsistencies between them.

 

I am thinking along with a technical mod compatibility point of view rather than a gameplay POV. As of V3, SR (correct me if I'm wrong) provides one view on how the game should be balanced by mostly tweaking the numbers - it is less so about introducing completely new concepts like etherealness.

 

I'm slightly more lax on the balancing side, and try to make existing effects more interesting. There's a higher risk involved in this than tweaking the numbers.

 

What I really meant was, if for example SR, aTweaks, SpellPack, DetectableSpells is going to introduce etherealness there needs to be some sort of dialog between us so we would develop a common format for etherealness that we would all use. This would greatly simplify intercompatibility between our mods.

 

Also, about balancing reasons: I've got dillema right now. It's about sphere access. I shouldn't mess with PnP but in current shape it looks... broken many times. For example in PnP Cleric has something like 80% of Druid's spells where Druid has 10% of amount Cleric has. Clerics have a major access to sphere of Sun (which I'd call "anti-undead spells not for clerics") and minor access to Elemental sphere. I've removed access to both of those - and their spell list looks for me far more balanced. But I'm not sure if I'm doing the right thing - do you think that sphere access should be balanced and improved? In the meaning, if author of a mod has a right of changing it in the name of Balance? I've also tried to fix some of the spells sphere allocation - but I think most of those is a form of fix, not a tweak.

 

Take a look at DR's sphere access for clerics and druids - some of the stuff you are talking about have already been done.

 

-Galactygon

[yarpen]

I don't like most of the MegaMods either - but that doesn't mean some players will want to play it my way. Even if there are conceptual incompatibilities. Using WeiDU's ADD_SPELL command costs you nothing and you don't have to touch their stuff. On the other hand there are benefits. For example, SR started introducing spells that were done by SpellPack a long time ago. If both mods use ADD_SPELL, then a player wishing to install SR before SP would not have any problems of different spells overwriting each other.

 

And then there's the chance of new obscure spell mods springing up somewhere that would benefit from using ADD_SPELL.

Is this also applicable in case of ADD_KIT? Because you know, kits are quite huge problem too. There is no problem of "there's to many of them" but still, compatibility with spheres system. Also, thinking about TDD kits makes me scared. But if there's a possibility of compatibility - why not. I just say that I want to focus on making this mod real at first, then compatibility with BWP and Neverwinter Nights 2.

 

If you're motivated, I don't see any problems. Most of the original authors are long gone, so you will have to work with Mike.

I should probably. But there is a great opportunity - CamDawg is back at G3. I've PMed him already talking about Faiths and Avatars and stuff.

 

I don't agree with much of the specialty priests' powers, but they made it in a released package.

Well, of course there is a difference between being creator who can gather stuff from community discussions and someone who tries to please everyone who's shouting at him. And to be honest I didn't liked some stuff from Divine Remix too - especially after I've read about how it was handled in AD&D. And especially concept of "Priest without kit is a priest without any faith."

 

I'm interested in who they are, maybe they could do some stuff for me.

Just PM me about what can be done, I'm going to try to ask them about possibility of realisation.

 

I am thinking along with a technical mod compatibility point of view rather than a gameplay POV. As of V3, SR (correct me if I'm wrong) provides one view on how the game should be balanced by mostly tweaking the numbers - it is less so about introducing completely new concepts like etherealness.

 

I'm slightly more lax on the balancing side, and try to make existing effects more interesting. There's a higher risk involved in this than tweaking the numbers.

 

What I really meant was, if for example SR, aTweaks, SpellPack, DetectableSpells is going to introduce etherealness there needs to be some sort of dialog between us so we would develop a common format for etherealness that we would all use. This would greatly simplify intercompatibility between our mods.

Well, a sort of Technical Mega-Mod is close to NerdGasm for me. If I can help in this dialog in any way (well, there is already a discussion between SR and SpellPack... it's great!) I would be glad to.

 

Take a look at DR's sphere access for clerics and druids - some of the stuff you are talking about have already been done.

You're right. This reminds me that Divine Remix was fine and balance product itself - but I hope that I can improve it by adding new spells, modern coding and few of my little ideas.

[phordicus]

this seems like a good place to interject, not as a criticism but a caveat.

 

every time a mod adds anything that gives the player more options -- spells, items, scripting tweaks -- it makes the game easier, sometimes exponentially.

 

all this new and customized content has to be balanced against the AI's ability to also take advantage of it otherwise you're just sucking away gameplay challenge in exchange for something new and shiny.

[yarpen]

Well, that'd be exactly the case... without later part of this mod, so introducing sphere system of spells. New spells are added mainly because of that. I think that even in current shape most of kits are quite balanced. Most of AI-controlled characters will for sure use standard cleric template (which is as far as I remember nearly identicall to standard BG2 cleric), but player will have much, much more options when creating character. Still, amount of available spells really shouldn't change in any way - it's their selection which changes. Of course, there are kits which grant more of them (example of Dweomerkeeper of Mystra, I'm still not sure about it's implementation) or less (Crusader, Watcher of Helm). Those who grant less spells are often better in combat (Crusader's abilities, Watcher's additional attacks per round).

 

Also, some spells aren't exactly new, they are working very similiar to some other in-game spells. I have to introduce spells like Impregnable Mind (which works exactly as Chaotic Command) just because it has other sphere assignment. (well, it's strange for me why they've implemented Chaotic Command instead of IM in BG2).

 

So do not fear, phordicus. Philosophy of this mod is to add options, not making game easier. Well... there are probably some exceptions. Druids are going to gain their true power which they deserve a lot: powerfull elemental-based spells, some interesting spells from Plants and Animals spheres (example of Animal Growth). Also, there are few convenient spells such as Dimensional Anchor - but which surely should have been already presented in-game. Well, it's quite ridicolous that the only way to make yourself protected from spells like Maze/Imprisonment you HAVE to have Berserker in your party... especially when Enrage really shouldn't grant protection from these spells, that's just illogical. Maze sends you to extradimensional Maze which your character has to "solve"... Enraging helping in this is just stupid. Also "me angry so no for teleporting me to other plane" idea is bad as overall. That's where Dimensional Anchor come - option for having such a protection on most important character. It is going to be dispellable and removable as Specific Protection, so I think it'll just work out.

[Ardanis]

AI also has an unfortunate ability to read player's defences. Fooling it once or twice during a battle seems fair to me.

 

What I really meant was, if for example SR, aTweaks, SpellPack, DetectableSpells is going to introduce etherealness there needs to be some sort of dialog between us so we would develop a common format for etherealness that we would all use. This would greatly simplify intercompatibility between our mods.

IIRC it's been mentioned on forums somewhere, and I think the same too, that DS should not try to cover mod-added spells. Several slots can be liberated (if AI mods agree to use different checks, that is), and imo they're better be spent on vanilla things. To name one, I had to find a reliable way to script friendly NPCs to use potions, and without extra slots it proved to be near-impossible to be done straightforward.