SR v4 (detailed list of changes - ongoing update)

[Demivrgvs]

While I'm still thinking about a handful of lower lvl spells (such as PfNW) let's add to the discussion 7th lvl ones. In the meanwhile I've also updated the first post, which will always serve as a recap of the whole discussion until it will become a definitive list of changes from V3 to V4.

 

Control Undead

Have anyone used it since V3 buff? Its vanilla version was pointless imo, but the current version should be kinda game-changing against undead armies because of the "no save" feature. At 14th lvl this spell can take control of Skeletal Warriors without allowing them a save, and at higher lvls not even Death Knights can resist it, though in both cases you have to face their sky high magic resistance. So, is it fine as it is?

 

Delayed Blast Fireball

I think it's fine as it is, as a double damaging Fireball with higher save penalty (-4 instead of -2) and trap usability. Compared to vanilla it has gained quite a lot of importance imo because of its increased damage (20d6 instead of 15d6) and Horrid Wilting nerf (though the latter still is vastly superior unless fighting undead creatures).

 

Finger of Death

The only thing to discuss here is its save penalty. I think that the obvious change from -6 to -4 is enough, but let me know if you think it's still too heavy.

 

Khelben's Warding Whip

Let's start by saying one thing: vanilla's spell has nothing to do with its PnP version! Then also keep in mind that we can't remove its current ability (no problem it is still fitting imo), and that its true PnP form is neither fully achievable (its parry ability would be a sort of PfMW, but not really) nor completely appealing (immunity to Bigby spells? oh yeah great!).

 

So, I'd start by making it an Evocation as per PnP (it's an energy whip much like Mordy sword) and adding a small but cool PnP feature by making it dispel Mage Armor and Shield (remember Breach doesn't work against them anymore). These surely aren't game changing tweaks, but for a pure Invoker removing Shield to then cast tons of Magic Missiles (and V4's Mordenkainen's Force Missiles) can still be handy, not to mention we already have tons of abjuration spell removals, thus making this one an evocation is a good twist imo. The whole anti-Bigby thing doesn't strike me as particularly appealing, and doesn't even fit the concept imo, but if you want it just because "it's PnP" fine with me.

 

After that there's the "parry" feature which we can't implement, but if you ask me it's not a big deal. If we really think this spell needs another boost while keeping the concept intact I'd say it could be either:

- remove one specific protection (e.g. ProEnergy) - perhaps only from 2nd round

- small magic damage when the whip strikes the target each round

That being said, the spell was appealing even in vanilla imo (because of its duration) so I'm fine even with just the small PnP restyle mentioned above.

 

Limited Wish

Many things could be done here, but I don't know if we have time and will to really mess with this spell.

 

Mantle

What do you guys think of its V3 version? Did it become somewhat appealing compared to the mighty PfMW?

 

Mass Invisibility

It should be fine as it is. With DI and TS not dispelling it anymore this will become a good party buff imo.

 

Mordenkainen's Sword

Ideally this spell should not be counterable by Banishment, but I guess the AI is not trained for such a change. At least Banishment will make the whole concept slightly more acceptable than vanilla's Death Spell (yeah, let's kill a non-living energy sword with a death effect). Disintegrate should be the real counter to it, but as long as Banishment is working against it I guess such additional feature will be mostly unsued, unless the caster happens to have no more memorized Banishments. In PnP Dispel Magic too works against it, but I'm not sure about implementing it (and handling caster lvl checks could be difficult).

 

Power Word Stun

Targets with 90+ hit points will now be affected, though only for 1 round (incidentally this is pretty much how Dungeon & Dragons Online handled it).

 

For the bigger picture instead I do think we should move this spell at 8th lvl and put here PW:Blind Instead (as per 3rd edition). Now that SCS makes True Seeing counter blindness (forcing us to do the same) there's really no way PW:Blind can even remotely be superior to PW:Stun (not to mention it already was inferior imo). PW:Blind now is pretty much useless against casters (is there any caster not running TS?), and even if it can still be a powerful spell against warriors, countering it is extremely easy.

 

Prismatic Spray

This spell utterly rocks imo since we removed the aspects which were making it unappealing (e.g. vanilla's petrification effect). I think that even with save penalties capped at -4 it will still be really great. The only thing which prevents it from becoming the best spell ever is that you have to handle its cone AoE, and the randomness of its effects, because else it has a really outrageous potential (up to 120 dmg or insta-kill, feeblemind, perma-stun, and so on - on multiple targets with a party friendly AoE!).

 

Project Image

I'd like to make it more close to PnP, but I'm not sure to which extent (e.g. we cannot make it use the original caster's spell slots when casting spells). Its V3's invisibility tweak aimed at making it somewhat usable in the middle of a fight as a sort of Mislead spell, and making Truee Seeing not dispel illusionary clones on sight should make this an even more viable use of PI.

 

Ideally there are tons of things I'd like to do. I'd like making it dispel itself if too far from the caster, but I don't want to mess with SCS scripts, thus I'd leave this feature out. I'd also like to make it a true illusionary clone (unlike Simulacrum which is semi-real) unable to buff itself with non-illusionary spells (e.g. Stoneskin). This is doable, and it could help to balance the immense power this spell still has despite the huge nerf (back then when it could also use scrolls and items it was outrageously OP). What do you think? Is it worth a try?

 

Protection from the Elements

I guess it's fine. Most casters will probably go for ProEnergy instead, but it's still a good cheaper alternative considering magic damage is very rare.

 

Ruby Ray of Reversal

I'll try to make this spell more close to its PnP version. For example it will revert polymorphed targets to their true form, making it a great counter when facing Shapechange's Iron Golem, but also good to cure an ally from Polymorph Other or Flesh to Stone (note that transmuters don't have access to Break Enchantment). Within AD&D it also removed target's illusionary protections, but I'll let you decide. It should also work as a Knock spell, as well as allowing to dispel a Web, Grease or Entangle effect on the target, but these are kinda pointless features considering Knock is a 2nd lvl spell and that the mentioned effects last 1 round anyway (3E made RRoR completely destroy those spells in the area, but that is not doable afaik unless we can create a sort of custom clearair.2da - and it's not clear to me why a single target spell should affect an area).

 

Spell Turning

We'll discuss this elsewhere, though some of you already know what we have in mind.

 

Sphere of Chaos

Once again, let's make it clear, this spell never existed in any PnP version. Considering that I'd like to move here Symbol of Stun as per PnP, and that SoC is so powerful I'd move it to 8th lvl. The only two PnP spells I found which resembles SoC are AD&D Symbol of Insanity and 3E Maddening Whispers, both of which are 8th lvl.

 

Summon Death Knight

I love this spell, simply because I think Death Knights are uber cool. Other than adjusting its behavior as we planned to do for other similar uncontrollable summons (e.g. necromancers could have a higher chance to control them) I think the spell is more or less fine.

 

Summon Djinni & Efreeti

We'll probably end up making a Summon Genie spell which then let you pick the one you want. I was thinking about adding the earth-related Dao, but it doesn't add much imo.

 

Summon Hakeashar

I thought about adding it a small anti-magic aura to make it more different than just a slightly better Nishruu, but even now the spell can be a very appealing choice for any spellcaster imo.

Edited April 13, 2012 by Demivrgvs

[Lawlight]

Control Undead

Yes it's fine.

 

Delayed Blast Fireball

Also fine.

 

Finger of Death

-4 should do the trick.

 

Khelben's Warding Whip

I would go for the small magic damge per round ('cause of the analogy to a real whip), but I think neither of the two options is really needed.

 

Limited Wish

Not worth the effort.

 

Mantle

It still stands in the shadow of PfMW. More than ever if you really plan to give PfMW its old duration back. Both Mantle skills need some more.

 

Mass Invisibility

It's indeed fine as it is.

 

Prismatic Spray

Sounds cool. Its randomness justifies its potential. I fear I'll still use it quite rarely, but that's a matter of taste.

 

Project Image

Yes I think it needs definitely more nerfs. I like the idea of treating it as a true illuisionary clone, because this differentiates it further from Simulacrum.

 

Protection from the Elements

I think it's fine and the only bonus I can think of is a small penalty to Elementals attack rolls and a small bonus to saving throws against them (a la Protection from Evil).

 

Ruby Ray of Reversal

That leaves me even more thinking about the right to exist of Stone to Flesh.

 

Sphere of Chaos

I'm ok with moving it to 8th level.

 

Summon Death Knight

It's bad ass as it is.

 

Summon Djinni & Efreeti

Merging would leave some space for some new stuff.

 

Summon Hakeashar

The aura sounds quite cool. But I think one of the two spells should get removed to make room for something new.

Edited April 13, 2012 by Lawlight

[Ardanis]

Control Undead

Have anyone used it since V3 buff?

Mind control is simply not my playing style

 

Limited Wish

Many things could be done here, but I don't know if we have time and will to really mess with this spell.

I think Wish spells deserve a separate topic...

For example, we can try to add PnP features to them (duplicate any spell of lower level).

 

Mantle

What do you guys think of its V3 version? Did it become somewhat appealing compared to the mighty PfMW?

It had some appeal with 3 round long PFMW, but nothing special. To make it worse, Improved Mantle is a level higher, and two same spells one level apart is a pain imo.

If PFMW gets back 4 rounds, then add an extra round to Mantles and Absolute Immunity too.

Also I would double the AC bonus (to 6 and 8), it will provide reasonable protection even when opponent's weapon can bypass the immunity.

 

Mordenkainen's Sword

In PnP Dispel Magic too works against it, but I'm not sure about implementing it (and handling caster lvl checks could be difficult).

IIRC aTweaks makes something killable with dispel magic, either mordy of nishruu.

 

Protection from the Elements

it's still a good cheaper alternative considering magic damage is very rare.

Magic damage is quite common, second only to fire, maybe.

Regardless, the duration is reasonably long, thus it's fine.

 

Summon Hakeashar

But I think one of the two spells should get removed to make room for something new.

I'm tempted to agree. One is enough, and I haven't even used them ever.

[Ardanis]

Chaos

Does anyone think this spell is vastly overpowered for it's level?

Large AoE, party-friendly, the most vicious save penalty the arcane spellbook has to offer, and it bypasses Globe of Invulnerability by being a 5th level spell. In fact, the only defense against it is SI:Enchantment and Chaotic Commands, beside 100% MR and equipped immunity. I find it quite wrong to disable a group of summoned Cowled Wizards by a single 5th spell.

In 95% cases it outshines other enchantment spells on it's level (Hold Monster, Feeblemind, Domination).

We haven't found an adequate way to distinguish Chaos from Confusion a level lower.

 

It led to a daring thought - all of the above can be solved in one feel swoop if Chaos is changed to PnP's Symbol of Insanity (8th level). It won't even have to have it's vanilla parameters changed, with the added benefits of increased level (immunity penetration) and symbol's trap-like nature they'll fit a 8th spell nicely.

 

And back in the middle levels there will be a currently underused Confusion.

Edited April 15, 2012 by Ardanis

[Lawlight]

As much as I understand the advantage of such a change, I thought that Demi planned the same for Sphere of Chaos some posts above. And isn't Symbol of Insanity (based on Chaos) inferior to Sphere of Chaos then?

[Demivrgvs]

Mantle

If PFMW gets back 4 rounds, then add an extra round to Mantles and Absolute Immunity too.

Sure thing, though Absolute Immunity is going to be epic anyway.

 

Mordenkainen's Sword

In PnP Dispel Magic too works against it, but I'm not sure about implementing it (and handling caster lvl checks could be difficult).

IIRC aTweaks makes something killable with dispel magic, either mordy of nishruu.

I did the same within SR. My main doubt is that the AI isn't trained to dispel Mordy.

 

Chaos

I'll put down my thoughts, but then I'd really appreciate if I don't have to make such a decision on my own, aka discuss it please.

 

As much as I understand the advantage of such a change, I thought that Demi planned the same for Sphere of Chaos some posts above. And isn't Symbol of Insanity (based on Chaos) inferior to Sphere of Chaos then?

I guess Ardanis is actually suggesting to "merge" the two spell's concepts and probably remove Sphere of Chaos. I obviously don't mind too much about Sphere of Chaos because it never existed in PnP (though I kinda like what I did with it), while Chaos unfortunately existed within AD&D, though I really cannot imagine why considering Confusion is pretty much the same thing. Let's say that conceptually I do agree with Ardanis that Chaos is really redundant, not only because of Confusion but also because at the same lvl you have Hold Monster which in theory fills the same role.

 

That being said I'm concerned regarding the AI, because right now it almost always pick Chaos over Confusion for obvious reasons. We could make the AI use Confusion instead, but only if SCS is trained to cast it regardless of Globe of Invulnerability (in theory Confusion is still working against all other party members, but vs solo mages it would be awkard). Otoh we could simply make the AI use Symbol of Insanity, but only if Chaos isn't used within sequencers, as they allow up to 6th lvl spells, and SoI would be an 8th lvl one.

 

Regarding Sphere of Chaos vs. Symbol of Insanity (aka Chaos + trap usability) I don't think one of the two clearly outshine the other.

Sphere of Chaos:

+ targets must save make a save each round

- target is affected only 1 round for each failed save

+ causes many different effects

- targets immune to one mind affecting opcode are often immune to all of them (e.g. undead, or creatures protected by Chaotic Command)

Symbol of Insanity:

- targets must make a save only once

+ target is permanently affected on a failed save

+ target with 5 HD less than the caster are not allowed a save (this is a Chaos feature, but I guess we'd keep it)

- uses only one type of effect, confusion, which is great against spellcasters but not always optimal vs warriors

+ can be set as a trap before combat

[Ardanis]

I guess Ardanis is actually suggesting to "merge" the two spell's concepts and probably remove Sphere of Chaos.

I was only proporsing the Chaos->Symbol of Insanity change, because they have nearly identical effect.

SoC uses different sort of effect (cloud), if we'd like we could rename it to Maddening Whispers, to be closer to PnP.

 

We could make the AI use Confusion instead, but only if SCS is trained to cast it regardless of Globe of Invulnerability (in theory Confusion is still working against all other party members, but vs solo mages it would be awkard).

GoI's type is undetectable, and SCS only refrains from casting 3rd spells when it sees it. Edited April 16, 2012 by Ardanis

[Demivrgvs]

I guess Ardanis is actually suggesting to "merge" the two spell's concepts and probably remove Sphere of Chaos.

I was only proporsing the Chaos->Symbol of Insanity change, because they have nearly identical effect.

SoC uses different sort of effect (cloud), if we'd like we could rename it to Maddening Whispers, to be closer to PnP.

But SoI and SoC are pretty much the same spell, they even share the confusion opcode. Chaos should have been a 6th lvl spell to not make Confusion look like the idiot's choice imo, that's probably why 3E just removed it, but there's no point on moving it (to make the more canonic Confusion appealing) and then have it share the spell lvl of another almost identical spell.

 

I think we can:

a) change Chaos into Symbol of Insanity and make it replace non-PnP Sphere of Chaos

b) move Chaos to 6th lvl instead of adding the new Enchantment spell I was going to suggest, Eyebite

c) simply remove Chaos

If we really have no consensus on any of the above solutions then I guess we'll have to leave things unchanged. This is one of those cases where I'd prefer democracy to win over my dictatorship.

 

We could make the AI use Confusion instead, but only if SCS is trained to cast it regardless of Globe of Invulnerability (in theory Confusion is still working against all other party members, but vs solo mages it would be awkard).

GoI's type is undetectable, and SCS only refrains from casting 3rd spells when it sees it.

So I guess making the AI use Confusion instead is fine.

[Lawlight]

I obviously don't mind too much about Sphere of Chaos because it never existed in PnP (though I kinda like what I did with it)

 

And so do I. I didn't even used it in vanilla, though I liked the IR V2 Version much (but it annoyed some players) and your V3 Version is quite powerful (but I will not miss it that much). As a sidenote: If you ever find some time for wild mage love (broad hint) Wildzone would be a good way to reintroduce V2's SoC.

 

Chaos unfortunately existed within AD&D, though I really cannot imagine why considering Confusion is pretty much the same thing. Let's say that conceptually I do agree with Ardanis that Chaos is really redundant, not only because of Confusion but also because at the same lvl you have Hold Monster which in theory fills the same role.

 

It IS actually redundant. Without IR's changes Chaos would be basically the same as Confusion with a slightly tougher save.

 

Symbol of Insanity:

- targets must make a save only once

+ target is permanently affected on a failed save

+ target with 5 HD less than the caster are not allowed a save (this is a Chaos feature, but I guess we'd keep it)

- uses only one type of effect, confusion, which is great against spellcasters but not always optimal vs warriors

+ can be set as a trap before combat

 

+ also fits the divine 7th spellvl better than SoC (because there are already some Symbol spells too)

 

I think we can:

a) change Chaos into Symbol of Insanity and make it replace non-PnP Sphere of Chaos

b) move Chaos to 6th lvl instead of adding the new Enchantment spell I was going to suggest, Eyebite

c) simply remove Chaos

 

If you and Ardanis think it is possible to let the AI use Confusion instead of Chaos, I would definitely prefer a) (with the "5 HD less than the caster[...]" feature). Regarding Eyebite: Wow, thats a funny one. Quite like the idea.

 

Absolute Immunity is going to be epic anyway.

 

What do you plan for Absolute Immunity?

Edited April 16, 2012 by Lawlight

[Lawlight]

Some of the stuff discussed before:

 

Tenser's Transformation

V3 version should be more or less fine, though there was a discussion about its drawback (no spellcasting) being too harsh. Is it?

 

Maybe enable spellcasting and add spellcasting failure in exchange. Or increase the casting time to such a degree, that it is a tough decision between using the weapon or casting a spell.

 

Invisible Stalker

I'd dare to suggest expanding its current concept, making it able to detect and disarm traps. This alone would turn this previously underused summon into an incredibly cool one.

 

If I wanted to really go overboard I'd even suggest to make it able to explore the area outside the "fog of war".

 

That would be uber cool.

 

Elementals

Water Elementals?

 

Genies

Daos and Marids?

Edited April 18, 2012 by Lawlight

[Demivrgvs]

Chaos

I think we can:

a) change Chaos into Symbol of Insanity and make it replace non-PnP Sphere of Chaos

b) move Chaos to 6th lvl instead of adding the new Enchantment spell I was going to suggest, Eyebite

c) simply remove Chaos

If you and Ardanis think it is possible to let the AI use Confusion instead of Chaos, I would definitely prefer a) (with the "5 HD less than the caster[...]" feature). Regarding Eyebite: Wow, thats a funny one. Quite like the idea.

Well, it's you and Ardanis for a) right now, let's see what other players think. I have only one doubt about this solution, how does Symbol of Insanity compare against Symbol of Stun? The former is one lvl higher in PnP but it actually seems slightly weaker to me. The confusion is permanent, but stunning your targets even for less time is often more reliable (though making opponents mages stop casting and bashing each other with their staves is fun). That being said, if it has Chaos's HD based no save feature then SoI gains a really valuable tool (I still cannot believe that within AD&D Chaos had no save for anyone with just 1 lvl lower than the caster instead of SR's 5).

 

Absolute Immunity

Absolute Immunity is going to be epic anyway.

What do you plan for Absolute Immunity?

Soon we'll discuss 9th lvl spells, be patient. Let's just say I want it to really work as its name suggest.

 

Tenser's Transformation

Maybe enable spellcasting and add spellcasting failure in exchange. Or increase the casting time to such a degree, that it is a tough decision between using the weapon or casting a spell.

I seem to recall Ardanis making a similar suggestion, but while balance-wise it may work, I don't like it much conceptually. For some reason I never considered TT a weak spell, and SR made it even better, but I'd really like to hear more opinions on this matter.

 

If we want to replace the "no spellcasting" drawback with something much less drastical, I'd probably prefer to add a fatigue effect at the end of the transformation.

 

Btw, if we opt for any of those solution I think we do have to make one more tweak, make TT not stackable with any other alteration spell such as Polymorph Self, Ghostform and Shapechange.

 

Elementals

Water Elementals?

Well, water elementals aren't even supposed to be summonable outside of water surfaces...but considering it seems we want to somewhat conform our elementals to aVENGER's ones I'll think about it.

 

Genies

Daos and Marids?

Sometimes I think most players don't realize how much work there is behind summons, not to mention spellcasting ones. Trust me it takes ages to plan (e.g. I have to check the various PnP versions - write down possible implementations - compare them to other summons to balance them) and as much to realize (e.g. cre, weapon, scripts). End of my rant.

 

Long story short, I wouldn't mind working on them if I had so much spare time, but let's say it's not my top priority considering we already have TONS of summons to work on. We'll see.

Edited April 18, 2012 by Demivrgvs

[Lawlight]

Genies

Sometimes I think most players don't realize how much work there is behind summons, not to mention spellcasting ones. Trust me it takes ages to plan (e.g. I have to check the various PnP versions - write down possible implementations - compare them to other summons to balance them) and as much to realize (e.g. cre, weapon, scripts). End of my rant.

 

Long story short, I wouldn't mind working on them if I had so much spare, but let's say it's not my top priority considering we already have TONS of summons to work on. We'll see.

 

To be fair, it was you who reopened my old sores by suggesting (or thinking about) to add Daos. Perhaps it's just me, but it has bothered me since day one that there are Air/Fire/Earth Elementals but only Air & Fire Genies.

 

Tenser's Transformation

If we want to replace the "no spellcasting" drawback with something much less drastical, I'd probably prefer to add a fatigue effect at the end of the transformation.

 

Btw, if we opt for any of those solution I think we do have to make one more tweak, make TT not stackable with any other alteration spell such as Polymorph Self, Ghostform and Shapechange.

 

A fatigue effect sounds interesting, but I'm not sure whether it would be enough. And yes, TT should not stack with those spells with enabled spellcasting. Good point!

Edited April 19, 2012 by Lawlight

[Demivrgvs]

I'll post 8th lvl spells too hoping it doesn't make you forget what's left to discuss regarding lower lvl spells, but instead makes the whole picture more clear.

 

8th Level Arcane Spells

 

Abi-Dalzim's Horrid Wilting

In theory it shouldn't deal magic dmg but lower hit points, but I guess it's fine as it is as the AI uses Pro(Magic)Energy to counter it.

 

Bigby's Clenched Fist

We currently have two almost identical Bigby spells (ironically vanilla's 8th lvl version was even better than its 9th lvl variant), so I propose to turn this spell into the very similar PnP Ice Claw spell, but renaming it as 4th edition Bigby's Icy Grasp. The spell would more or less remain the same, but it would inflict cold dmg and freeze the target, making both dmg type, hold type and possible counters (e.g. ProCold) different from its bigger cousin Crushing Hand.

 

Then, considering that the two Bigby spells would still be too close and very similar and that PnP Ice Claw is a 7th lvl spell in PnP, we might move this spell down to 7th lvl, especially if we decide to add here the classic PnP Polar Ray.

 

Ghostform

On paper this spell should be quite powerful, offering many defensive properties and immunities without hampering spellcasting in any way, but I'd need feedback from actual playtesting. Did anyone find himself using this spell with success?

 

Greater Globe of Invulnerability

I know it's not a true PnP spell, but I like it as it is, and it makes my wizard feel like a lich for a moment.

 

Improved Mantle

Leaving aside that I always considered both Mantles redundant (why they added these two non-PnP spells is beyond my comprehension), this spell may simply get slightly increased duration (+1 round).

 

I just had a crazy idea regarding Mantles, but I haven't studied it, thus don't insult me please, I don't know if it would be unbalanced (probably not) or mess with AI detectable spells. Long story short, what about making Mantle effect increase with caster lvl up to grant full immunity to weapons? Except with RR's Cyric encounter PfMW already does that, thus I don't see a balance problem, and Mantles uses very high spell lvls.

 

We also have the problem of making two almost identical spells different and both appealing despite having only 1 lvl difference, and I really don't know how it could be doable outside of really daring solutions, such as making Improved Mantle work as Mantle affecting allies within 10 feet (crazy eh?).

 

Else we can just live as we always did, pretty much ignoring these two spells and always picking PfMW instead of them.

 

Incendiary Cloud

Its school could be changed to Conjuration a la 3E (it belonged to both Conjuration and Evocation within AD&D, and in fact this is the only cloud spell imo which at least looks like it could be an evocation). Balancing this spell is incredibly hard, but ideally it deserves to be even more devastating than Horrid Wilting imo considering it's not party friendly. I'd like each cloud to perform a slightly different role but in PnP this is pretty much a damaging Fog Cloud and that's how it currently works. That being said, while Cloudkill and Acid Fog are mid-high lvl spells and deserves to not be overlapped (Stinking Cloud too remains a different and valid option imo) I don't think it's a problem for IC to "overlap" the eventual addition of Fog Cloud.

 

Has anyone used it enough to give me some feedback? How does the AI handle it?

 

Maze

I never completely understood this spell, it indeed has its utility, but I personally require more from an 8th lvl spell to memorize it (it's just a Resilient Sphere with no save imo). Anyway, there's little or nothing we can do here, so I just hope it's fine as it is.

 

Pierce Shield

I guess this spell is fine. It's pretty much Breach on steroids, as unlike Breach it can bypass any spell protection (except the restored Spell Shield), even removing the most powerful one, and it works against both liches and rakshasas (plus SR's GGoI).

 

Power Word Blind

See PW:Stun.

 

Protection from Energy

No changes needed.

 

Simulacrum

I think we made it a balanced spell. Not exploitable anymore but still incredibly powerful.

 

Summon Fiend

I'd like to add Cornugon to make player's version of this spell match SCS behaviour.

 

Symbol of Death

Ironically the only Symbol which really belongs to 8th lvl is the least appealing one. The easiest way to make this spell appealing would be to make it more like Dungeon & Dragons Online, aka a "Mass Enervation Trap". The hardest one (not 100% sure it's doable) would be to make it a continuos effect instead of instantaneous once triggered, thus turning the area into a field of death where for x rounds everyone within the area must make a save as soon as his/her hit points are lower than 60, or die.

 

Symbol of Stunning

I'd move it at 7th lvl as per PnP, making it match priest's spell lvl.

 

Symbol of Weakness

I'd move it at 7th lvl as per PnP, making it match priest's spell lvl.

Edited April 19, 2012 by Demivrgvs

[Ardanis]

Mantles

Increasing effect can be done, but within DS limits only, which has distinctive values for normal weapons, +2 (+3 in SCS), +3 (+4 in SCS), Absolute Immunity (+5, but likely +6 too), and PFMW.

However, some additional work will be required, else standard DS will not understand the spell should be labeled differently depending on level. Hopefully nothing unmanageable.

 

I really don't know how it could be doable outside of really daring solutions, such as making Improved Mantle work as Mantle affecting allies within 10 feet (crazy eh?).

Interesting, but... unbalanced maybe? Coupled with the above tweak it is almost a mass Absolute Immunity!

 

Maze

Ignore MR maybe?

[Lawlight]

Symbol of Weakness & Symbol of Stunning

I'd move it at 7th lvl as per PnP, making it match priest's spell lvl.

Makes sense.

 

Symbol of Death

Or just make it match priest's spell lvl too (7th lvl) breaking with PnP in this case.

 

Simulacrum

It's perfectly fine now.

 

Maze

Ignore MR maybe?

What I do fear here is that it would become too appealing compared to Imprisonment.

For me Imprisonment is more about having an ace up one's sleeve (a kind of last resort spell). You could use it to disable one dangerous target (of a hostile party) and there is basically nothing it can do about, then come back after the fight and finish the job. It could be called somewhat overpowerd, but on the same time it has become more of an underdog, not only because it shares it's slot with lvl 9 spells, but more because you have to rest multiple times or free it to get your loot. In my opinion thats a good example for balance.

Maze on the other hand is much harder to balance, because it can basically the same thing (on low-mid INT targets though) and it has to be weaker than Imprisonment. But more often than not the target comes back faster than you like and you have to deal with that. But that is fine in my eyes, because it's more an combat orientated version of Imprisonment and you must keep an eye on it, it's not a no brainer. But Ardanis has a point too, because the player has to estimate the targets INT already to decide it's usefulness, and MR complicates that even more. My suggestion: lower the castime to 1 to make it even more reactive in the heat of the battle.

 

Mantles

I really don't know how it could be doable outside of really daring solutions, such as making Improved Mantle work as Mantle affecting allies within 10 feet (crazy eh?).

Interesting, but... unbalanced maybe? Coupled with the above tweak it is almost a mass Absolute Immunity!

You call it a daring solution, but I think it would be a quite interesting one. Needless to say, that this party protection thing really fits the mantle theme in my eyes. The duration needs to be adjusted then of course (nerfed).

 

I just had a crazy idea regarding Mantles, but I haven't studied it, thus don't insult me please, I don't know if it would be unbalanced (probably not) or mess with AI detectable spells. Long story short, what about making Mantle effect increase with caster lvl up to grant full immunity to weapons? Except with RR's Cyric encounter PfMW already does that, thus I don't see a balance problem, and Mantles uses very high spell lvls.

I don't want to insult you at all, but I think that would not help much to differentiate them from PfMW and from each other at all.

 

Incendiary Cloud

What about adding a secondary effect to those within the Cloud, that makes them suffer increased fire damage (20% for example?). ToBEx made this possible, or am I wrong? This would allow some nice combos.

Edited April 20, 2012 by Lawlight