SR v4 (detailed list of changes - ongoing update)

[Kalindor]

Sanctuary

It seemed we agreed on improving it by reducing its casting time from standard (4 in vanilla, 5 within SR) to instant (1). Furthermore we also agreed to (*) make it not affected by divination spells.

 

What do you think?

Agreed.

[Lawlight]

I'm bored with arcane talking...let's give those poor divine spellcasters some attention.

I hope for a "new spells discussion" for these poor divine spellcasters too.

 

Armor of Faith

I'd increase its duration to 5 turns (1 hour). [...] I'm not sure if druids should have it, but I can probably vote to let them keep it. Assuming within FR lore druids still worship some nature god, and not just nature itself, thus they do have some sort of "faith".

Yes for the duration increase. I'm not so sure if druids should have it. Yes they worship nature gods, Jaheira worships Silvanus for example, but I think the spell dosn't fit to them (especially the animation).

 

Bless

Fine now. I still love you for having halved Bless' incredible annoying casting time.

 

Druids probably shouldn't have it (they don't in PnP), but if they end up with too few spells I can live with them keeping it.

I think they shouldn't have it and one could compensate it with new spells, like Anti-Vermin Barrier (aka anti

Summon Insects and Co) which would leave Clerics jealous behind at druids grove.

 

Cure Light Wounds

Yes for better scaling.

 

Doom

I think it deserves to have standard action casting time. *cover*

 

Druids don't have this spell in PnP, and I kinda agree it doesn't suit druid's spellbook.

Fine with me. But I think there will be some people who hate you for that...

 

Entangle

It's fine now.

 

Magical Stone

Dunno with which solution you ended up for Mantle and Improved Mantle, but if you follow the route of making all Mantle spells some sort of PfmW spells with additional features, I'd like to see both MS and MMM getting their enchantment level tied to the caster's level.

 

Sanctuary

It seemed we agreed on improving it by reducing its casting time from standard (4 in vanilla, 5 within SR) to instant (1). Furthermore we also agreed to (*) make it not affected by divination spells. What do you think?

I agree with you for both.

 

Shillelagh

I like what you've done here and it has its uses, but am I the only one who thinks that the enchantment level should increase with caster level till +4? Spiritual Hammer is just one level higher and can become a +5 enchanted weapon.

 

Strength of Stone

I would probably reduce the movement speed penalty to make it more appealing.

Yeah, that'd probably help, but otherwise I really like it.

 

Sunscorch

I like the spell but not the casting time...

Edited May 12, 2012 by Lawlight

[Pacek]

Armor of Faith

I agree with most of your suggestions but spell failure? Really? I don't think I would ever use it in that case.

 

Command

With awaken on hit tweak it really becomes much weaker. What do you think of a choice of effects?

 

Entangle

A very useful spell as is, don't touch it.

 

Faerie Fire

I don't really understand why the AC penalty? A sparkly opponent is easier to hit? Glitterdust's dazzle effect makes more sense. But is an anti-invis effect not enough for a first level spell? How about slightly larger area of effect (10') and remove AC penalty?

 

Strength of Stone

What is the movement penalty? It surely doesn't seem too great. As a first level spell against Wizard's Strength spell (2nd level) it seems pretty good.

 

I have a suggestion for Barkskin, as I have never really used it: Immunity to critical hits. I guess this is possible with TobEx now.

[Lawlight]

Armor of Faith

You've simply misunderstood him. TobEx's Concentration Check feature works this way (if I understood it right): if the caster takes damage he rolls 1D20 + luck. If the outcome is bigger than spell level + damage taken, you succeed. As you can see it is an advantage with this feature installed to take less damage, because it helps you to win the conentration check. And AoF reduces damage by a meaningful amount.

 

Faerie Fire

I don't really understand why the AC penalty? A sparkly opponent is easier to hit?

Exactly! And it is a really canonical feature of this spell too. If you fail to imagine how this works I strongly suggest you to read one of Salvatores Drizzt novels.

 

Barkskin

I have a suggestion for Barkskin, as I have never really used it: Immunity to critical hits. I guess this is possible with TobEx now.

With IR V3.1 planned changes in mind, I think this is actually a very good suggestion.

Edited May 12, 2012 by Lawlight

[Salk]

1st Level Divine Spell

 

Armor of Faith

I'd increase its duration to 5 turns (1 hour). With ToBEx concentration tweak it may actually become a real must have even with short duration because the concentration check is easier the less dmg the caster suffer, and thus we may look AoF as having a -20% spell failure effect. Regardless, raising the duration wouldn't hurt imo.

 

I'm not sure if druids should have it, but I can probably vote to let them keep it. Assuming within FR lore druids still worship some nature god, and not just nature itself, thus they do have some sort of "faith".

 

Agree with everything except letting druids have access to the spell.

 

Bless

It should be fine, I already hugely boosted it by halving its vanilla casting time and increasing its duration from 6 rounds to 5 turns.

 

Druids probably shouldn't have it (they don't in PnP), but if they end up with too few spells I can live with them keeping it.

 

Just like for Armor of Faith, these are two spells that shouldn't imho be available to druids. You might consider introducing new druid only spells to the game instead.

 

Command

Pratically cleric's version of mage's Spook. I think it's fine now, though not incredibly appealing.

 

I use it sometimes. Keep it untouched.

 

Cure Light Wounds

I'll probably create a dedicated topic for Cure/Cause Wound spells. In short I think this spell should heal slightly more hit points. Not much, but enough to make it appealing mid game to decently cure heavily injured d4 mages, mildly wounded d6 characters, and lightly wound d8 ones.

 

I fully support your suggestion.

 

Faerie Fire

Pratically druid's version of Glitterdust. Does it need any change?

 

No, it doesn't.

 

Magical Stone

I've tried to turn this ridiculously pointless spell into priest's MMM. What do you think? Is it appealing enough now?

 

It's better than vanilla, for sure. Not enough to make me want to memorize it though.

 

Protection from Evil

I do hope ToBEx will make this spell's opcode work as it should. That being said, should I add it "immunity to charm" effects as per PnP even if I cannot restrict it to charms cast by evil creatures?

 

Your hope is my hope. But I am against adding immunity to charm because that would make it overpowered. For once, I am suppoting a non PnP take of a spell. I think Bioware did right in this case.

 

Sanctuary

I've read again dozens of pages in the Feedback topic as I forgot the huge discussion on this matter we had with DavidW. After much thinking it seems this spell may not require the huge revision I planned to replace its original opcode, though I'm not 100% sure because of (*).

 

It seemed we agreed on improving it by reducing its casting time from standard (4 in vanilla, 5 within SR) to instant (1). Furthermore we also agreed to (*) make it not affected by divination spells.

 

What do you think?

 

The agreed implementation suits me well.

 

Strength of Stone

I would probably reduce the movement speed penalty to make it more appealing.

 

Yes, do it. Now that IR comes with movement speed penalties components, it's even more important that you do.

 

Sunscorch

As per PnP, though I would have probably preferred a different spell progression (e.g. faster but capped sooner). Being the only 1st lvl damaging spell (limited to druids) I think this was a truly great addition, and one of my favourite low lvl druid spells.

 

I am fine with the current progression but I wouldn't mind a faster one since druids can't really sport many other offensive spells of that kind.

[Demivrgvs]

Wow, just wow, I'm amazed 1st lvl priests spells got all this attention from you guys. I'll try to reply to everyone.

 

@Lawlight, I'll start the topic for new divine spells asap.

 

Armor of Faith

@Pacek, Lawlight already explained it for me.

 

Cool to see most of SR players would actually like to remove non-druid spells from their spellbook despite their usefullness. I would have not dared to suggest removing so many of them. The only thing which may stops me is that they should still have a decent amount of spells per lvl, thus the first candidates to go are the least druid-like spells such as Bless and Doom, followed by AoF.

 

Bless

On a side note, it may actually have a new effect, countering its reverse spell, Bane.

 

Command

@Pacek, cretures rendered unconscious by Command spells do not wake up on hit, only those affected by Sleep. I know these are subtle details to catch, but it's these small things that makes the whole spell system so cool.

 

Cure Light Wounds

It seems we all agree in terms of concept, now it will be a matter of finding the right values.

 

Doom

I'm not in favor of increasing its casting time. Adding a save as per PnP/IWD was already unwelcomed by many players, making it even slow to cast is a sure way to get more hate mails/posts.

 

Faerie Fire

@Pacek, AC penalty is its classic PnP feature, and makes sense indeed to me. I probably could accept increasing its AoE to 10', but it's not a big deal. For a 1st lvl spell it's already very useful.

 

Magical Stone

@Salk, I kinda feared that it was "better looking but not enough to memorize".

 

MMM should rightly be vastly superior, but there's probably too much gap:

* enchantment lvl: MMM has +2 instead of +1

* attack per round: MMM has 5 instead of 3

* accuracy: MMM has +5 bonus to attack rolls (not sure why, kinda random but I left it there), MMM only +1

* damage: MMM inflicts 1d4+2d4, stones just 1d4+1

* ammo: MMM goes up to 20, stones are just 10

 

What do you guys think it needs the most?

 

Protection from Evil

I can probably live with it not having immunity to charm effects. Even without it (assuming the opcode is fixed) it's still a good, long lasting buff, and you can even cast it on allies.

 

Sanctuary

Ok, sounds like we all agree.

 

Shillelagh

I don't know, +4 enchantment lvl for a weapon created with a 1st lvl spell seems really too much, but it may be just me. Mmm... Anyway, that +1 enchantment lvl isn't the real deal imo, as +3 is enough to hit 99,99% of SoA and ToB opponents.

 

Strength of Stone

@Pacek, it currently is 50%, but I now think something between 20-30% should be enough. Keep in mind mage's version of this spell can b cast on others, that feature alone generally is worth a +1 spell slot lvl.

 

Sunscorch

I think making its casting time faster has been asked quite a few times. If it was just a damaging spells I would have surely answered positively, but this spell actually is a Blindness spell (though with very short duration) which also causes a good amount of dmg, and double dmg against undead. Don't you think having instant casting time too would be really too much?

[Lawlight]

@Lawlight, I'll start the topic for new divine spells asap.

I'm happy to hear that!

 

Doom

I'm not in favor of increasing its casting time. Adding a save as per PnP/IWD was already unwelcomed by many players, making it even slow to cast is a sure way to get more hate mails/posts.

O.K. granted.

 

Magical Stone & Melf's Minor Meteors

What do you guys think it needs the most?

You may laugh, but I think a bit of everything (except maybe attacks per round).

 

BTW, what do you think about my suggestion of both MS and MMM getting their enchantment level tied to the caster's level, Demi?

 

Shillelagh

I don't know, +4 enchantment lvl for a weapon created with a 1st lvl spell seems really too much, but it may be just me. Mmm... Anyway, that +1 enchantment lvl isn't the real deal imo, as +3 is enough to hit 99,99% of SoA and ToB opponents.

It's just one thing I noticed and wondered about, not really important for me.

Edited May 12, 2012 by Lawlight

[Kalindor]

Cool to see most of SR players would actually like to remove non-druid spells from their spellbook despite their usefullness. I would have not dared to suggest removing so many of them. The only thing which may stops me is that they should still have a decent amount of spells per lvl, thus the first candidates to go are the least druid-like spells such as Bless and Doom, followed by AoF.

Personally, I don't think the druid's and cleric's spellbooks should overlap as much as they do. However, the only solution would be to add a bunch of new druid spells and remove the prayer- and blessing-like spells from them. While this would be ideal, it sounds like a ton of work.

 

Command

@Pacek, cretures rendered unconscious by Command spells do not wake up on hit, only those affected by Sleep. I know these are subtle details to catch, but it's these small things that makes the whole spell system so cool.

I use this spell a lot. It is essentially a ranged knockdown that can fubar mages/clerics casting spells with long casting times (who have no spell deflection). It allows you an option to interrupt ranged casters that have Stoneskin or boosted AC by hitting them on the saving-throw side of the equation.

 

Doom

I'm not in favor of increasing its casting time. Adding a save as per PnP/IWD was already unwelcomed by many players, making it even slow to cast is a sure way to get more hate mails/posts.

I'd leave it as-is. It surely has never won any battles for me.

 

Magical Stone

MMM should rightly be vastly superior, but there's probably too much gap:

* enchantment lvl: MMM has +2 instead of +1

* attack per round: MMM has 5 instead of 3

* accuracy: MMM has +5 bonus to attack rolls (not sure why, kinda random but I left it there), MMM only +1

* damage: MMM inflicts 1d4+2d4, stones just 1d4+1

* ammo: MMM goes up to 20, stones are just 10

 

What do you guys think it needs the most?

Damage for sure. This spell is a Magic Missile that requires attacks to discharge and a to-hit roll to deal any damage. Granted, you do get 10 of them.

 

Shillelagh

I don't know, +4 enchantment lvl for a weapon created with a 1st lvl spell seems really too much, but it may be just me. Mmm... Anyway, that +1 enchantment lvl isn't the real deal imo, as +3 is enough to hit 99,99% of SoA and ToB opponents.

I don't think the enchantment level is the problem. The fact is that you would never cast this spell after acquiring a weapon that is better (a problem that is common to magical weapon spells). In order for me to use this or any magical weapon spell, you would have to do one of the following:

1) Make it add its effects to the wielder's existing weapon.

2) Give it some sort of unique bonus/ability that is valuable and cannot be found on regular weapons.

3) Make it aid spellcasting in some way (conceptually odd).

4) Make it scale with level to compete with the power of contemporary weapon choices.

 

Energy Blades, MMM, and even Magical Stone fulfill condition 2 because they give a large attacks per round bonus that wizards cannot otherwise acquire. Therefore, I do find those useful.

 

Strength of Stone

@Pacek, it currently is 50%, but I now think something between 20-30% should be enough. Keep in mind mage's version of this spell can b cast on others, that feature alone generally is worth a +1 spell slot lvl.

Agree with casting on allies being worth +1 spell level. However, you would think it would be the priest's version that is ally-targetable.

I think a 25% movement penalty is sufficient.

 

Sunscorch

I think making its casting time faster has been asked quite a few times. If it was just a damaging spells I would have surely answered positively, but this spell actually is a Blindness spell (though with very short duration) which also causes a good amount of dmg, and double dmg against undead. Don't you think having instant casting time too would be really too much?

 

I have been annoyed with the druid's long casting times for their offensive spells. However, I have grown to think of it as a characteristic of the class and how they summon nature as opposed to discharging memorized spells. I think it adds flavor. BUT there should be some passive bonus or HLA in Kit Revisions that allows druids to have a boosted ToBEx concentration check to mitigate this "feature." It's not the time it takes to cast that annoys me, but the propensity for being interrupted.

Edited May 12, 2012 by Kalindor

[Ardanis]

Armor of Faith & Bless

I too am quite against druids having access to them.

 

Magical Stone

Stones deal 1d4+2 damage, with +3 bonus vs undead. Unless you scale the quantity with level, this is a strong choice for a 1st level priest.

I would leave them untouched. I don't use them, mind you, but neither do I use MMM - just not my playing style.

Otherwise increase the quanitity to 5+lvl up to 15 at 10th.

 

Shillelagh

+4 enchantment is useful against Mantles, if we don't change them. But +4 weapon from 1st level spell is insane indeed.

Speed up the progression to 1, 5, 9 levels? This is the end of BG1 and the start of BG2 - +3 weapon, even if a mere club with 1d4 die, for a 1st slot can be very useful there.

 

Strength of Stone

Just get rid of movement penalty completely? 20%-25% will have almost null effect, 50% is enough to avoid like a plague due to annoyance factor. Don't druids need some love in general, especially without metal armor?

 

Sunscorch

Imo it's fine. Casting speed of 5 is still tolerable, and the spell has good uses.

 

I have been annoyed with the druid's long casting times for their offensive spells. However, I have grown to think of it as a characteristic of the class and how they summon nature as opposed to discharging memorized spells. I think it adds flavor. BUT there should be some passive bonus or HLA in Kit Revisions that allows druids to have a boosted ToBEx concentration check to mitigate this "feature." It's not the time it takes to cast that annoys me, but the propensity for being interrupted.

Agreed. Concentration stat is not implemented yet though, only the base check.

 

 

PS I have just realized that IR's Weapon Changes will render "magical weapon" spells' description inaccurate, notably that of Shillelagh. Not good, not good...

 

I also think it should be mentioned somewhere that Magical Stone and MMM use the dart proficiency.

Edited May 12, 2012 by Ardanis

[Salk]

Magical Stone

 

According to me, there is only one way to make it better: improve its accuracy so that it can become a choice when it does matter to have a high chance of a first, interrupting hit. I'd do that and leave the rest unchanged.

[Pacek]

Armor of Faith

You've simply misunderstood him. TobEx's Concentration Check feature works this way (if I understood it right): if the caster takes damage he rolls 1D20 + luck. If the outcome is bigger than spell level + damage taken, you succeed. As you can see it is an advantage with this feature installed to take less damage, because it helps you to win the conentration check. And AoF reduces damage by a meaningful amount.

 

Thakns for clearing that up, I had a feeling I had completely missed the point.

Faerie Fire

I'm happy with the PnP explanations for this

 

Strength of Stone

I had thought movement penalty was already around 20%, so I guess I'm happy with reducing it to this figure.

 

Magical Stone

Does it really use dart prof? I would suggest making it no proficiency.

 

Command

I need to check next time I play, but I remember opponents waking when hit. In this I guess there is some compatibilty problem with TobEx (but it probably has been addressed by now).

[JosephJohnson]

Magical Stone spell needs more damage, like 1d6+3. Also improving the speed factor so you can attack faster. If not then at least up the amount to 20.

 

I never used strength of stone but I can definitely see how a movement rate decrease would be annoying. I say do away with it completely.

[Lawlight]

Strength of Stone

Well, it could have been the perfect spell for chars like Jaheira (long duration - negates her weakness in this area), but I use it only in situations where its side effect come handy: against wing buffets etc, because the movement penalty (coupled with the long duration) makes it super annoying to use in standard situations. Really it's not just a bad copy of the wizards 2nd lvl spell, I use it quite often in the abovementioned scenarios and I understand that this movement rate decrease adds much to the flavour and realism of Strength of Stone, but I kinda agree with my previous speakers that you could just as well get rid of the movement speed decrease altogether. Another solution would be to make the movement speed penalty only take effect in combat situations, but if I remember right you don't like this solution much @Demi.

[Demivrgvs]

Armor of Faith, Bless & Doom

Unexpectedly it seems there's a large consensus on removing them from druids. Obviously fine with me, especially if we manage to give druids a bunch of new more appropriate spells (I'll try to open the relevant topic today).

 

Magical Stone

BTW, what do you think about my suggestion of both MS and MMM getting their enchantment level tied to the caster's level, Demi?

Both I and DavidW reduced MMM's enchantment lvl because we didn't liked them to be used as a cheap "destroy golem from safe distance" exploit. Now, I know we should blame the poor encounter design (aka large golems should not be used in places where they can get stuck in a small door) but back then it seemed an easy solution, and only David can fix the gameplay issue in another way (realistically I and Ardanis will probably never manage to really start working on something like Creature/Quest Revisions).

 

In theory I'm not against stones getting +2 enchantment lvl at higher lvls (even +3 if it wasn't for the above mentioned gameplay issue), but then Shillelag would start to be even less appealing than it already is.

 

Regarding stones and meteors using dart proficiency, that must be an oversight (strange I never noticed it in all these years). I think both spells should use no proficiency at all.

 

Strength of Stone

I'm really fine reducing the current heavy penalty to movement rate, but at least a small one has to be there. Not because I feel obliged to stay true to PnP, but because it's an integral part of the concept behind the spell.

Edited May 14, 2012 by Demivrgvs

[Sanctifer]

Faerie Fire

Pratically druid's version of Glitterdust. Does it need any change?

 

Maybe it was just a small bug in my game (and if it is just ignore me), but I think that creatures affected by the spell should be glowing as in spell description.

When I first used it, I really thought it didn't work and it was useless, because there were no visual effect at all.

Maybe you could add this ?