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Demivrgvs

SR v4 (detailed list of changes - ongoing update)

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Mantles

Increasing effect can be done, but within DS limits only, which has distinctive values for normal weapons, +2 (+3 in SCS), +3 (+4 in SCS), Absolute Immunity (+5, but likely +6 too), and PFMW.

However, some additional work will be required, else standard DS will not understand the spell should be labeled differently depending on level. Hopefully nothing unmanageable.

Well, assuming SCS is installed we have everything we need (+3, +4, all), and a non-SCS AI is so stupid that it really doesn't matter afaik (does vanilla AI care about checking target's weapon immunity?).

 

As Lawlight says the real problem is that whatever we do won't change the real problem: mantles are pointles copies of PfMW. I just suggested it because at least they shouldn't be outshined by their lesser cousin anymore, but I'm surely not throwing out a party to celebrate how cool these non-PnP spells are.

 

I really don't know how it could be doable outside of really daring solutions, such as making Improved Mantle work as Mantle affecting allies within 10 feet (crazy eh?). :(
Interesting, but... unbalanced maybe? Coupled with the above tweak it is almost a mass Absolute Immunity!
Well, not even close to what Absolute Immunity will be. :D Anyway, a Mass version of a spell often is just 3 lvls more than the original one, thus a Mass PfMW at 8th lvl wouldn't even be so absurd, and I'm not really suggesting a Mass PfFM but rather a sort of PfMW aura, which protects the caster and allies within 10 feet from him. That being said, I was the first to say my suggestion was daring and possibly unbalanced.

 

Btw, I surely wouldn't shed a tear if we end up deciding to kill one of the two mantles and make the other one PfNW+PfMW (scaling or not).

 

On a side note, we should stop comparing Absolute Immunity to these spells, it's only true rival will be Time Stop. muahaha Jokes aside, what I'm saying is that at least AI won't be just another PfMW. :)

 

Maze

Ignore MR maybe?
What I do fear here is that it would become too appealing compared to Imprisonment.
Exactly what I thought, and what I answered myself. :) Not that I consider Imprisonment a really viable spell choice, or a balanced spell (3E added it a save for a reason, with no save it's the most broken spell ever). In fact I think that Imprisonment should actually get a save, as bypassing magic resistance, working against pretty much any creature, and having permanent duration which requires another 9th lvl spell to counter, should be enough to make it the most effective single target disabling spell.

 

My suggestion: lower the castime to 1 to make it even more reactive in the heat of the battle.
Mmm...I can be persuaded to make it a standard action (casting time 5 within SR), but conceptually making it instant seems strange. For some reason it really doesn't look like an instant spell, no? Conjurations in general are not instantaneous.

 

Would tweaking Maze's minimum duration make any difference?

 

Symbol of Death

Or just make it match priest's spell lvl too (7th lvl) breaking with PnP in this case.
That wouldn't fix the fact that ANY other symbol spell is more appealing than this one right now. :) I do prefer to keep it at 8th lvl but making it worth that lvl.

 

Incendiary Cloud

What about adding a secondary effect to those within the Cloud, that makes them suffer increased fire damage (20% for example?). ToBEx made this possible, or am I wrong? This would allow some nice combos.
I don't get the concept behind a fire damaging spell increasing the fire dmg its target suffer. I would have understood if you suggested to make Grease increase fire dmg within its AoE. :) Edited by Demivrgvs

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Mantles

AI uses them to counter fighters, so as long as they get to keep weapon immunity, it doesn't really matter what else they can do. We can even make them all PFMWs - indeed, a sensible choice for 8th spell, as I can see now.

Well, in theory even replacing immunity with impenetrable AC bonus will do. But it is easier to leave things to their current state imo.

 

does vanilla AI care about checking target's weapon immunity?).
Without DS it simply has no means to.

 

Tell you what, let's just make 8th a mass PFMW and remove 7th Mantle completely, to save the headache. Mmm, that means IR's improved Cloak +2 will need to be tweaked a little.

 

Maze

Not worth to memorize - long casting time, touch range, MR check, generally low effect by the time we can spare a slot for it.

 

For Imprisonment, it's exactly the need to cast Freedom to get XP and loot back that makes it not viable compared to weaker PW Kill. Adding a save will render it completely unusable, I fear.

 

Would tweaking Maze's minimum duration make any difference?
It may. Although I would increase maximum too.

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Mantles

AI uses them to counter fighters, so as long as they get to keep weapon immunity, it doesn't really matter what else they can do. We can even make them all PFMWs - indeed, a sensible choice for 8th spell, as I can see now.

Well, in theory even replacing immunity with impenetrable AC bonus will do. But it is easier to leave things to their current state imo.

 

does vanilla AI care about checking target's weapon immunity?).
Without DS it simply has no means to.

 

Tell you what, let's just make 8th a mass PFMW and remove 7th Mantle completely, to save the headache. Mmm, that means IR's improved Cloak +2 will need to be tweaked a little.

That's pretty much what I was tempted to do, but if we really accept my crazy suggestion about Improved Mantle than we may as well keep Mantle as a fair PfNW+PfMW (you know, PfMW in theory doesn't work against non-magical weapons). The improved 8th lvl version would be pretty much the same but extended to those who stay very close to the caster the whole time.

 

Anyway, I'd prefer to not decide this with just my vote, yours and Lawlight's one. :)

 

Maze

Not worth to memorize - long casting time, touch range, MR check, generally low effect by the time we can spare a slot for it.
We used it so often we don't even remember how it currently works. I already made it faster to cast (5 instead of 8) and I already added it some range (medium instead of touch - or short, I don't remember). It seems like I'm not so stupid as I think and I already tried to improve it as much as I could. :D

 

Would tweaking Maze's minimum duration make any difference?
It may. Although I would increase maximum too.
Sorry, I meant both min and max indeed, actually even just the maximum duration could be enough as it reaises the average value. What I don't know if this really matters, because most AI opponents shouldn't have sky high INT anyway, and I guess Maze is more often used vs. warriors rather than Mages, because a mage vulnerable to Maze is a dead mage (aka just cast him PW:Stun a damaging spell, or whatever else for that matter! :D ). No?

 

Imprisonment

For Imprisonment, it's exactly the need to cast Freedom to get XP and loot back that makes it not viable compared to weaker PW Kill. Adding a save will render it completely unusable, I fear.
You know what, gimme the time to go back at home and I'll post all 9th lvl spells too, so we have all arcane spells on the table and we can freely speak of Imprisonment too. :)

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Imprisonment

For Imprisonment, it's exactly the need to cast Freedom to get XP and loot back that makes it not viable compared to weaker PW Kill. Adding a save will render it completely unusable, I fear.

100% agree.

 

Maze

Would tweaking Maze's minimum duration make any difference?

Maybe. I'd vote for a range increase too.

 

Although I would increase maximum too.

That could annoy people.

 

Mantles & PFMW

but I'm surely not throwing out a party to celebrate how cool these non-PnP spells are

Hehe. ;)

 

I'm not really suggesting a Mass PfFM but rather a sort of PfMW aura, which protects the caster and allies within 10 feet from him

It would definitaly solve the problem of making Mantle finaly unique, but I think some more feedback is very welcome here.

 

let's just make 8th a mass PFMW and remove 7th Mantle completely

Logical consequence.

 

Incendiary Cloud

I don't get the concept behind a fire damaging spell increasing the fire dmg its target suffer. I would have understood if you suggested to make Grease increase fire dmg within its AoE. :)

The Grease idea is really cool. *thumb-up*

 

EDIT:

We used it so often we don't even remember how it currently works. I already made it faster to cast (5 instead of 8) and I already added it some range (medium instead of touch - or short, I don't remember). It seems like I'm not so stupid as I think and I already tried to improve it as much as I could.

I checked it this minute and the range is indeed already medium per V3. :)

Edited by Lawlight

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As promised, behold the...

 

9th Level Arcane Spells

 

Absolute Immunity

This is a 9th lvl spell for Ao's sake, let's make it worth that spell slot! I suggest to make it grants what its name suggests, absolute immunity, for 4 rounds. By that I mean at least immunity to all forms of damage (V3 Absolute Immunity + Protection from Energy), but I'd include a much wider amount of immunities (e.g. Free Action + Death Ward + Mind Blank). If you're thinking that would be OP, think again: Time Stop does the same and much more. During Time Stop everyone except the caster is frozen (he can even hit in melee with 100% chance), there's neither protection against it (there's not a single item or spell granting immunity to Time Stop) nor counter, whereas Absolute Immunity would still be removable via Breach or Pierce Shield. During Absolute Immunity all opponents would still be active, able to counter it (or for example tear down other spell protections), if not in the worst case find cover and wait a bunch of rounds for AI to expire. Time Stop will still be superior in every possible way except casting time, as Absolute Immunity would have the noticeable advantage of having almost instant casting time instead of a full round, and 1 round duration. What do you think?

 

Note that Abjurers don't have access to Time Stop, this would pratically be their version of TS. :D

 

Bigby's Crushing Hand

If you accept my suggested changes for the other Bigby spell I hink this is one is more or less fine as it is. Very high dmg potential with what I consder the best dmg type (crushing) and a chance to disable the target once each round.

 

Black Blade of Disaster

I seriously need feedback on this spell, because balancing this type of spell on paper is really hard, if not impossible. It's easy to make this spell not worth a 9th lvl spell slot, as much as it's easy to make it OP in the right hands. :(

 

Chain Contingency

Man I do fear this spell becoming an innate ability available for free after every rest, but then I realize that it's pretty much the same if it remains in the spellbook as in the best case it just takes 1 spell slot (albeit a 9th lvl one) and in the worst case it's free anyway because you can just rest again to regain both CC and its stored spells while keeping both CC and its stored spells. Last but not least, each and every SCS mage already get it for free, thus it's just a matter of making it fair for players too.

 

Energy Drain

Its V3 version should already be quite powerful.

 

Freedom

The ultimate "cure status" spell. I don't know how many of you used this since I buffed it so heavily, but at least on paper it doesn't look like something I would only use via scroll. Memorizing a bunch of Break Enchantment or similar spells probably is more than enough most of the times, but archmages may decide to have one Freedom memorized for the worst encounters. Furthermore, the possible addition of spells such as Mass Polymorph and Mass Domination would actually make SR's Freedom have a much higher game-saving potential imo.

 

Gate

I guess I have to at least add a Baalor here to match SCS behaviour. Ideally I'd like to make this spell more like PnP, allowing to summon non-evil cretures too for good or neutral aligned casters, but it requires A LOT of planning and work.

 

Imprisonment

I think that Imprisonment should actually get a save, as bypassing magic resistance, working against pretty much any creature, and having permanent duration which requires another 9th lvl spell to counter, should be enough to make it the most effective single target disabling spell.

 

Meteor Swarm

After what I did to Flame Arrow it has been suggested a couple of times to make Meteor Swarm as per PnP, 4 fireballs fired consecutively. If you ask me I prefer the current solution, as well as its current concept and animation (a trus swarm of meteors, not just a bunch of fireballs), and if I want a multi-hit fireball I just store 3 Fireballs within a trigger/sequencer. Am I wrong?

 

On a side note, to make it more effective I thought about making half of the dmg physical, but I fear doing so would make its concept slightly turns into a conjurations rather than an evocation. Anyway it shouldn't be a big deal even if ProFire is enough to counter it considering 4th lvl Death Ward counters Wail of the Banshee and PW:Kill, Chaotic Commands can counter PW:Kill (yeah, again) and an eventual Mass Domination, Dimensional Anchor could counter Imprisonment, and so on. What do you think?

 

Power Word Kill

Instead of having PW:Kill affect only targets with less than 60 hit points I'd make it kill any target regardless of hp, allowing only those with more than 60hp a save to avoid death. Targets with less than 60hp won't be allowed a save as before.

 

Shapechange

No changes needed imo. This spell has a devastating potential, most of which lies in its incredible Iron Golem form, but even turning into a Mind Flayer to just get its sky high magic resistance while retaining spellcasting is a great option imo. This spell could only get better by adding a Lich form, but that would be insane imo (pratically a long lasting GGoI + Mind Blank + various immunities - with movement rate as only drawback). :D

 

Otoh, let me know if you think we should really add one particular form, or that one of the existing ones is not appealing compared to the others.

 

Spell Trap

Its true PnP name would be Absorption. I'm still not sure what to do with this spell, but as it is right now it doesn't offer anything a lower lvl spell protection does imo.

 

Spellstrike

This should be the ultimate spell removal. Back then DavidW convinced me to not make it really devastating because casters had almost no protection against it, but now that we have Spell Shield into the equation again I think we don't have to restrain ourselves anymore. Even if we make it remove all spell, combat and specific protections, or if we decide to add here an Improved Dispel effect, as long as Spell Shield can counter one Spellstrike I think everything would be fine, wouldn't it?

 

Time Stop

I still believe that allowing physical attacks during TS makes it unbalanced (ironic that after suggesting it myself to Sikret I was then accused to copy that suggestion from him, but nevermind), and that 3E TS is much more balanced. That being said, I guess there's nothing we can do without messing with the AI (e.g. SCS exploits this at least a couple of times, such as Irenicus encounter in hell), and I can probably live with TS remaining the most powerf 9th lvl spell as long as the other choices are almost as good and less exploitable.

 

Wail of the Banshee

Many players actually consider this spell almost OP within SR because of its -6 save penalty. Now, I can simply make it use a lesser penalty but making the problem imo is that without a secondary effect its main one deserves to be hard to counter, so I think at least -2, if not -4.

 

Speaking of secondary effects, I know it would not be as per PnP but what about adding a secondary deafness effect?

 

Wish

See Limited Wish. Infinite potential, but very complicate to implement.

Edited by Demivrgvs

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Absolute Immunity

I'd take longer duration instead, up to 1 turn. Tons of short lasting immunities, while fit the name, look more like Moment of Prescience.

 

Black Blade of Disaster

I'm yet to memorize it, because my FM prefers Soul Reaver, and Edwin has better things to do than swing a sword. Maybe will try it on Tyris the next time I play BG2.

 

Energy Drain

Again, am yet to memorize. -4 levels is no big deal for 15+ opponents. 2d4 as per 3E?

 

Freedom

I think I did memorize it.

 

Gate

As some may remember, there was a talk about bargaining with gated fiends.

 

Imprisonment

See previous post

 

Meteor Swarm

As I said in chat, intense AoE graphics may cause a crash, and raining only over targets looks weird. Other than that, nothing to consider, the spell is excellent indeed.

 

Spell Trap

With added protection from AoE spells, there'll be quite a greater chance to absorb a random ADHW or Prismatic Spray.

 

Spellstrike

Dispel is what I was about to say myself. You see, Dispel/Remove Magic are the only two spells that do not abide by the level 20 cap. I would enforce that cap for them, and add level-based dispel to Spellstrike.

 

Wish

Sticking to PnP should be enough, no?

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Absolute Immunity

[...]I suggest to make it grants what its name suggests, absolute immunity [..] If you're thinking that would be OP[..]

First I thought: wow! he can't be serious! that is so op! man! (just kidding) But your argumantation convinced me. :)

 

Bigby's Crushing Hand

I think it's fine. The only possible improvement I could think of is making it bypass MR like Comet & Dragon's Breath, but then it's only a lvl 9 spell, so no.

 

Black Blade of Disaster EDIT

Really like what you have done here and to all the other magical created weapons too, especially that the caster can benifit from the proper proficiencies while wielding them. I use BBoD alot on my F/M (not on my single class mages, though), but more because always using TS can become annoying sometimes. PFMW & Stoneskin counters it, thats a little bit odd. What I fear is that BBoD does not deserve to be a lvl 9 spell. It has some high damage potential, yes, but it should really bypass PFMW and Stoneskin. Hell, one could do much more in a single TS. As I said: I memorize BBoD when TS annoyes me -> 'nuff said! Maybe only Absolute Immunity should block it's damage. That said, yes it could be somewhat op, but so is TS too. On a side note: I wish it could be useable by Blades, so if you think bypassing the mentioned protections is to strong: maybe move it to lvl 8...

 

Chain Contingency

Don't share your doubts. Just do it. :D

 

Energy Drain EDIT

Never really used it. *shy*

 

Again, am yet to memorize. -4 levels is no big deal for 15+ opponents. 2d4 as per 3E?

I smell some serious op shit. :D Mixed feelings here.

 

Freedom EDIT

The ultimate "cure status" spell.[...]

That'll have to do.

 

Gate

See Wish with the major difference that I think it'd be pretty cool to bring it closer to PnP.

 

Imprisonment

I think it's pretty balanced. See some previous posts of mine.

 

Meteor Swarm EDIT

]I prefer the current solution, as well as its current concept and animation (a trus swarm of meteors, not just a bunch of fireballs)[...]

And so do I.

 

On a side note, to make it more effective I thought about making half of the dmg physical, but I fear doing so would make its concept slightly turns into a conjurations rather than an evocation.

Physical damage would fit very nice imo. I don't mind if it needs to be changed to conjuration school then.

 

One a side not, following the same arguments I'd make Comet deal some fire damage. It's animation really indicates that!

 

Power Word Kill EDIT

Instead of having PW:Kill affect only targets with less than 60 hit points I'd make it kill any target regardless of hp, allowing only those with more than 60hp a save to avoid death. Targets with less than 60hp won't be allowed a save as before.

Mixed feelings here. Really enjoy the "the current hp points are used for it's determination" feature.

 

Shapechange EDIT

No changes needed imo.

'Nuff said! Never really used the other two forms, though. One can't balance the forms among themselfs, because the creatures are varyingly strong either. That's ok.

 

Otoh, let me know if you think we should really add one particular form

You've provoked it: Beholder. :D *cover* But if I remember right you said it would be to difficult to implement (and I believe it is). Vampire would be another cool form. Another of those INSANE ideas would be a dragon form... *just kidding*

 

Spellstrike

[...]as long as Spell Shield can counter one Spellstrike I think everything would be fine, wouldn't it?

I think so.

 

Time Stop EDIT

Who ever touches this spell will get his finder burnt, I think. Personally, I'm really in a love-hate relationship with it. Balancing level 9 around it is very wise indeed. At the risk of getting stoned to death: I think it should be a lvl 10 spell.

 

Wish

It's really your and Ardanis' very own decision (it's your free time). In my opinion it's not worth the effort.

 

Level 9 Spells in general EDIT HOT

To make level 9 spells more appealing in endgame, I'd make level 10 spells innates. It could be a possible buff for mages in general, but it'd give you also the chance to balance (that's KR's business I think) how often they could be used per day. For example Improved Alacrity only once per day.

 

EDIT: I edited my post to make my feedback a bit more detailed.

Edited by Lawlight

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Level 9 Spells in general

To make level 9 spells more appealing in endgame, I'd make level 10 spells innates. It could be a possible buff for mages in general, but it'd give you also the chance to balance (that's KR's business I think) how often they could be used per day. For example Improved Alacrity only once per day.
Ops, for some reason I thought this was already stated somewhere, but it's not. We already discussed this, even with DavidW which ended up agreeing with us and thus added "Treat mages' and priests' High-Level Abilities as innate abilities rather than memorisable spells" component to SCS expecting SR/KR to make that the standard behaviour. :)

 

Absolute Immunity

I'd take longer duration instead, up to 1 turn. Tons of short lasting immunities, while fit the name, look more like Moment of Prescience.
I guess you mean 1 turn but as a plain PfMW-like spell, right? I prefer my solution way more, and imo a long lasting PfMW is either OP (if opponents can't breach it) or not much better than PfMW (if opponents can breach it).

 

Btw, which are these tons of short lasting immunities? I don't recall anything except PfMW, Mantles and SR's Reflected Image (which we are secretly trying to change once again).

 

[...]I suggest to make it grants what its name suggests, absolute immunity [..] If you're thinking that would be OP[..]
First I thought: wow! he can't be serious! that is so op! man! (just kidding) But your argumantation convinced me. :)
That's pretty much how I felt myself when I was imagining the spell. At first I said myself "that's insane", but then I started to realize that even making it stronger, and then stronger again, it still couldn't compete with Time Stop. :D

 

Black Blade of Disaster

Really like what you have done here and to all the other magical created weapons too, especially that the caster can benifit from the proper proficiencies while wielding them. I use BBoD alot on my F/M (not on my single class mages, though), but more because always using TS can become annoying sometimes. PFMW & Stoneskin counters it, thats a little bit odd. What I fear is that BBoD does not deserve to be a lvl 9 spell. It has some high damage potential, yes, but it should really bypass PFMW and Stoneskin. Hell, one could do much more in a single TS. As I said: I memorize BBoD when TS annoyes me -> 'nuff said! Maybe only Absolute Immunity should block it's damage. That said, yes it could be somewhat op, but so is TS too.
Making it bypassing Stoneskin was there when the sword was dealing only magic dmg (V2?), and I do suggested back then to make it bypass PfMW a la PnP, but it was considered game breaking by DavidW, though he said most of his mages were running ProMagicDmg or ProEnergy, hopefully keeping the sword op-ness somewhat at bay. I don't know what to do, but I do feared what Ardanis says, and what you pretty much confirm, this spell is clearly outshined by the other 9th lvl spells. It's not a bad spell, it's actually very powerful, it's just that it's hard to make it compete with things that litteraly wipe the area like Metero Swarm and Wail of the Banshee, not to mention that damn Time Stop. I'll try to see if we can do something to make this spell shine without getting ridiculously OP.

 

On a side note: I wish it could be useable by Blades, so if you think bypassing the mentioned protections is to strong: maybe move it to lvl 8...
I'll surely never move BBoD from its canonic lvl.

 

Energy Drain

Again, am yet to memorize. -4 levels is no big deal for 15+ opponents. 2d4 as per 3E?
Did you forgot I made it grant the caster "additional 20 hit points, a +4 bonus to attack rolls and saving throws, and +20% bonus to every skill"? If you ask me I'd tweak that aspect more (e.g. just noticed I have to add +4 caster lvl too), rather than making it remove even more lvls (btw, 2d4 is 5 lvls on average, not much different than the current 4).

 

Power Word Kill

Instead of having PW:Kill affect only targets with less than 60 hit points I'd make it kill any target regardless of hp, allowing only those with more than 60hp a save to avoid death. Targets with less than 60hp won't be allowed a save as before.
Mixed feelings here. Really enjoy the "the current hp points are used for it's determination" feature.
I don't understand, that aspect of the spell remains there, current hp points are still used to determine if the target dies instantly with no save.

 

How else would you improve the spell? Do you think vanilla PW:Kill can compete with the other 9th lvl spells as it is now?

 

Shapechange

No changes needed imo.

'Nuff said! Never really used the other two forms, though. One can't balance the forms among themselfs, because the creatures are varyingly strong either. That's ok.

Ideally I'd like all forms to perform a role. For example the Greater Werewolf should be better than the Iron Golem in melee terms against warriors (higher apr, huge regeneration rate) but BG is so full of spellcasters that I guess you always end up chosing the Iron Golem anyway.

 

Otoh, let me know if you think we should really add one particular form
You've provoked it: Beholder. :D *cover* But if I remember right you said it would be to difficult to implement (and I believe it is). Vampire would be another cool form. Another of those INSANE ideas would be a dragon form... *just kidding*
Ahahah, no comment. :D Beholder is not fully doable because rays would only work via scripts, but even then I doubt th AI is prepared to face it. Vampire form would be an laternative to the mind flayer I guess, regeneration and undead immunities instead of magic resistance. Let's say that at least it makes sense and it's doable. :)

 

Spell Trap

With added protection from AoE spells, there'll be quite a greater chance to absorb a random ADHW or Prismatic Spray.
As long as the spell works as per vanilla, aka as a detectable spell with giant animation, neither the AI nor the player will ever cast a spell againt Spell Trap. I see two solutions to that:

a) remove the animation (doable) and make it uber fast to cast (aka make it a counterspell rather than a spell protection)

b) male it absorb AoE spells

I don't know which solution is best, neither which one players would prefer, but I do know that we do have to fix an issue which gets even worse if we opt for b), the well know infinite loop.

 

The only way to fix the infinite spells issue imo is to make Spell Trap more similar to its PnP version, Absorption. PnP 1d4+6 spell levels in our case should be 8 lvls because unlike PnP within BG even 1 spell lvl left can still absorb a 9th lvl spell completely, and this way we can prevent the infinite spell loop without harming the spell effectiveness too much (it can still absorb a Finger of Death, grant you a 7th lvl spell back, and then still block a 9th lvl spell! - though I don't know right now what you get back from absorbing a 9th lvl spell with only 1 spell lvl left to absorb). What do you think?

 

Spellstrike

Dispel is what I was about to say myself. You see, Dispel/Remove Magic are the only two spells that do not abide by the level 20 cap. I would enforce that cap for them, and add level-based dispel to Spellstrike.
So, it would remove all spell protections (which are undispellable) and than instead of removing specific ones too we make it cast a dispel/remove magic based on caster lvl?

 

Time Stop

Who ever touches this spell will get his finder burnt, I think. Personally, I'm really in a love-hate relationship with it. Balancing level 9 around it is very wise indeed.
Just wnated to say that my goal isn't to make all the other 9th lvl spells as powerful as TS, just appealing enough to make them valid alternatives. TS will always be the most powerful 9th lvl spell, but keep in mind that TS alone doesn't do anything except buying you time, you need to use other spells to actually do something (unless you are a fighter-mage), whereas for example Wail of the Banshee or Meteor Swarm can destroy the battlefield with a single spell slot. TS has the highest potential, but in a twisted way the other 9th lvl spells can be considered somewhat cheaper.

 

At the risk of getting stoned to death: I think it should be a lvl 10 spell.
Not going to happen. :)

 

Wish

Sticking to PnP should be enough, no?
Do you know what that really means? :D

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Absolute Immunity

Tons of immunities are yours suggested ProEnergy, FA, Death Ward and Mind Blank. I agree it is a great spell to counter any kind of threat rapidly approaching the caster, but that's it really. This is what Moment of Prescience is supposed to do, and it is 8th level.

 

I also do not believe a full turn of PFMW is as game breaking as you think. This is a "damn ninth level spell", sharing the place with TS, WotB, Meteor Swarm, Gate, Wish, Spellstrike and Freedom. It has to be powerful, else nobody's gonna pay ~10k for a scroll.

 

Besides, it can be still be breached indeed. Party can always do that, and if AI can't, it has five other potential targets to pick from.

 

Energy Drain

Drained bonus only lasts for 1 turn and frankly is not very useful. You have to be a single class mage to cast 9th spells, and 18+ level mage hardly cares about extra HP, or thaco, or skills. Only +4 saves is somewhat useful, if the caster is not careful to use protections.

 

Bonus caster level will only add +2 at 18th level, and +1 at 19th.

 

For the target, 4 drained levels are barely vital, because by the time you reach 18th level even generic grunts start boasting two-digit level score. A wizard will sure lose some higher level spells, but you'd have to actually land ED on him before he casts them.

 

Might as well go for 8 levels (still within 2d4 bounds), then maybe it is finally worth a slot.

 

Power Word Kill

To compete with party-friendly WotB, I think it has to use the hardest save penalty possible, -6.

 

Spell Trap

Removing animation is interesting, and will definitely warrant a use of Arcane Sight (if we add it). What displeases me a bit is that all spell protections are visible.

 

Absorbing AoE... you mean casting Incendiary Cloud and walking in it, because other 8th and 9th AoE spells are all friendly. Well, be ashamed anyone who abuses it.

If I intend to fight within multiple ICs, I'll cast ProFire and become immune to it, leaving Spell Trap intact. If they manage to dispel my ProFire, then ST will buy me a round to escape the fiery death alive.

 

Same as with Absolute Immunity, I'd expect stable and reliable protection from 9th spell. 1d6+4 is simply not enough for that purpose. And if you're worried about free spell refreshing, the only side effect is that party needs to rest less often! And I hate resting before completing a dungeon.

 

Spell Strike

I gave it another thought, and decided that removing specific protections isn't bad after all.

 

Wish

Do you know what that really means? :D
It means adding guaranteed effects, like duplicating lower level spells. WIS based options are already in abundance in vanilla game.

Dialogue copypaste work, nothing more.

Edited by Ardanis

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BBoD

A very effective and fun spell within SR with a dualled F9/Mx. I played with a party of six, and the combo of Improved Haste + BBoD + TS made the F/M outshine every other party member against dragons in TOB. SCS2 improved Abazigal Lair was almost a breeze :) Though I guess you didn't want to give additional awesomeness to the already overpowered dualled F/M ? It's true the spell doesn't seem that appealing to multiclass or singleclass Mages.

 

But you know, some players like to play with your wonderful mods, and also like playing with cheese :p

Edited by Montcroix

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Absolute Immunity

I am fine with either solution. Perhaps make it un-breachable short-duration?

 

Bigby's Crushing Hand

 

Agree with your implementation.

 

Black Blade of Disaster

Cast on party members? :)

 

Chain Contingency

Not sure that anything needs to be done with this.

 

Energy Drain

I already use this sometimes. Agree that skill bonus is pretty useless to wizards, however. Perhaps make it use drained energy to restore spent spells?

 

Freedom

I use this extensively as a fallback since you buffed it. May think twice about taking it on a Sorcerer, however...

 

Gate

Alignment-specific creatures would be awesome if possible. Maybe merge with Planetar for good casters and make the Planetar spell into something else?

 

Imprisonment

Imprisonment is absurdly broken. However, adding a save makes it short-range PW:Kill (if you change that as suggested also) that bypasses MR. Different enough to be its own spell?

 

Meteor Swarm

Physical damage only makes sense. Definitely don't convert into 4 fireballs!

 

Power Word Kill

I always make this exact modification when I play through the game.

 

Shapechange

I never use this and thus cannot give any feedback.

 

Spell Trap

Can you make it attract and absorb spells cast at nearby allies? Other than that, the AoE protection would be nice. Also, a "Mass Spell Deflection" as a 9th or 10th-level spell (maybe just for abjurers?) would be appreciated as well...

 

Spellstrike

I vote to make it strip everything as suggested. In any case, the enemy casters also have access to it.

 

Time Stop

IMO, this spell is only overpowered when combined with Improved Alacrity and/or massive increased casting speed. I agree with removing auto-hit if that is a possibility.

 

Wail of the Banshee

I always use this on my Sorcerer since you've, ahem, improved it. I don't think it is overpowered as there are many things that are immune to it. It's not as useful in all situations like Meteor Swarm.

 

Wish

I only use this for insta-rest, personally. (It is very good for that, though.)

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Energy Drain

For the target, 4 drained levels are barely vital, because by the time you reach 18th level even generic grunts start boasting two-digit level score. A wizard will sure lose some higher level spells, but you'd have to actually land ED on him before he casts them.

 

Might as well go for 8 levels (still within 2d4 bounds), then maybe it is finally worth a slot.

Sounds like an instantaneous Spell Worm on steroids to me.

 

I already use this sometimes. Agree that skill bonus is pretty useless to wizards, however. Perhaps make it use drained energy to restore spent spells?

Interesting idea to make it more appealing to casters. Together with the +4 caster levels Demi wants to add it should be enough.

 

Time Stop

TS will always be the most powerful 9th lvl spell, but keep in mind that TS alone doesn't do anything except buying you time, you need to use other spells to actually do something (unless you are a fighter-mage), whereas for example Wail of the Banshee or Meteor Swarm can destroy the battlefield with a single spell slot.

I don't understand the problem. A pure mage needs to use spells anyway to actually do something. Why is that an argument against physical attacks during TS?

 

I agree with removing auto-hit if that is a possibility.

I do not agree with that. But anyways, Demi already stated:

 

That being said, I guess there's nothing we can do without messing with the AI (e.g. SCS exploits this at least a couple of times, such as Irenicus encounter in hell)

 

Spell Trap

Same as with Absolute Immunity, I'd expect stable and reliable protection from 9th spell. 1d6+4 is simply not enough for that purpose. And if you're worried about free spell refreshing, the only side effect is that party needs to rest less often! And I hate resting before completing a dungeon.

And Wish does spell refreshing already in a more effective way anyway with NPC's like Aerie.

Edited by Lawlight

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Mantles

AI uses them to counter fighters, so as long as they get to keep weapon immunity, it doesn't really matter what else they can do. We can even make them all PFMWs - indeed, a sensible choice for 8th spell, as I can see now.

Well, in theory even replacing immunity with impenetrable AC bonus will do. But it is easier to leave things to their current state imo.

 

does vanilla AI care about checking target's weapon immunity?).
Without DS it simply has no means to.

 

Tell you what, let's just make 8th a mass PFMW and remove 7th Mantle completely, to save the headache. Mmm, that means IR's improved Cloak +2 will need to be tweaked a little.

That's pretty much what I was tempted to do, but if we really accept my crazy suggestion about Improved Mantle than we may as well keep Mantle as a fair PfNW+PfMW (you know, PfMW in theory doesn't work against non-magical weapons). The improved 8th lvl version would be pretty much the same but extended to those who stay very close to the caster the whole time.

I was thinking that changing mantle spells school to conjuration would make them little more distinct from PfNW and PfMW and also usable to transmuters or whatever specialist is going to have abjuration their opposite school in KR. Mantle spells are mantles like Mage Armor is armor, right? I like idea to make Mantle PfNW+PfMW and it could also keep at least some of its save bonuses from V3 to make it more appealing, maybe make save bonuses increase with level. I also approve making Improved Mantle just like Mantle but with small aura effect (and with Mantle's save bonuses maybe).

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Wail of the Banshee

Many players actually consider this spell almost OP within SR because of its -6 save penalty. Now, I can simply make it use a lesser penalty but making the problem imo is that without a secondary effect its main one deserves to be hard to counter, so I think at least -2, if not -4.

 

Speaking of secondary effects, I know it would not be as per PnP but what about adding a secondary deafness effect?

Deafness would fit pretty well as a secondary effect, but is it enough to legitimate a lesser penalty? Another thing I can think of is "sonic" damage on a succeeded save. Or even both. Anyways, without a proper secondary effect it should keep its -6 save penalty.

 

Power Word Kill

I don't understand, that aspect of the spell remains there, current hp points are still used to determine if the target dies instantly with no save.

I simply misunderstood you. That's all. I'm fine with your plans then.

 

To compete with party-friendly WotB, I think it has to use the hardest save penalty possible, -6.

I can only agree here.

Edited by Lawlight

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