NWN-style Spell Deflection

[Demivrgvs]

This discussion was lost within this very old topic, and it needs to be discussed for SR V4, thus I'm resuming it in this shiny new topic.

 

 

Short Version

Remove all instances of Spell Turning. Make Spell Deflection work against AoE spells too.

 

 

Long Version

NWN1&2 don't have Spell Turning, but instead have tons of versions of Spell Deflection (called Spell Mantle). NWN's Spell Deflection/Mantle works against AoE spells, and not having Spell Turning would remove the conceptual/balance issues (e.g. 1 Fireball reflected as x Fireballs).

 

It may sound horrible/strange to remove Spell Turning, but if we think about it, due to how the game works (both for players and AI) Spell Turning never makes any difference compared to Spell Deflection, because you'll never see a SCS mage stupid enough to cast a Finger of Death at a caster affected by ST, and not even a mere Magic Missile.

 

So, when it comes to changes for the individual spells, we would have the following situation:

 

Minor Spell Deflection: the least changed spell, as it would remain at 3rd level but it would now offer protection from AoE spells too.

 

Minor Spell Turning: it will be replaced by Spell Deflection as 5th level version of this spell serie.

 

Spell Deflection: disabled at 6th level for players, but I'll provide a workaround in case the AI looks for it at this lvl instead of 5th (aka the AI using this spell will either cast 5th lvl SD or 7th lvl GSD - I tend to give the AI a little advantage, thus I'd say the latter, but it's not a big deal).

 

Spell Turning: replaced by Greater Spell Deflection as 7th level version of this spell serie.

 

Spell Trap: this is the spell I'm less sure of. Making it restore caster's spells by absorbing AoE spells would be quite terrific, and probably very exploitable imo. I really don't know.

 

 

Recap

We would end up with the following list of spell protections:

3rd lvl - Minor Spell Deflection

4th lvl - Minor Globe of Invulnerability

5th lvl - Spell Deflection, and Spell shield

6th lvl - Globe of Invulnerability

7th lvl - Greater Spell Deflection

8th lvl - Greater Globe of Invulnerability

9th lvl - Spell Trap

[Kalindor]

Such a sacrilegious and profane suggestion that I almost wanted to hit the "Report" button.

 

I agree that SCS renders different iterations of spell protections pointless in that they are only as powerful as their countermeasure is expensive. However, if you are planning on making protection animations invisible, then the AI would be none the wiser unless they have cast "Arcane Sight," making them at least susceptible to having one spell reflected back in their faces. Am I misinterpreting this?

[Demivrgvs]

I agree that SCS renders different iterations of spell protections pointless in that they are only as powerful as their countermeasure is expensive. However, if you are planning on making protection animations invisible, then the AI would be none the wiser unless they have cast "Arcane Sight," making them at least susceptible to having one spell reflected back in their faces. Am I misinterpreting this?

I have no intention of making neither Spell Deflection nor Globe of Invulnerability invisible with this tweak. Vanilla's Spell Turning should have been invisible, and Spell Trap too should be invisble imo, because they are supposed to "trick" opponents.

 

Arcane Sight wouldn't be useful because it detetects generalist protections such as Spell Deflection, but because it detects specific protections such as Protection from Energy, Free Action, Death Ward, Chaotic Commands, and so on.

[Salk]

It's an intriguing thought.

 

I have always thought of the spell protection system being badly implemented for a number of reasons so perhaps streamlining is the answer.

 

Still, spells like Minor Globe of Invulnerability would lose much of its meaning.

[Demivrgvs]

It's an intriguing thought.

 

I have always thought of the spell protection system being badly implemented for a number of reasons so perhaps streamlining is the answer.

 

Still, spells like Minor Globe of Invulnerability would lose much of its meaning.

May I ask why?

 

I actually think the two types of protections would have very good sinergy. Globes of Invulnerability takes precedence (aka if you have GoI+SD only spells of 5th lvl or higher will consume Spell Deflection layers), keeping Spell Deflection fields active for the more powerful spells. Spell Deflection is going to be very effective, but on its own it would also be very "vulnerable" (especially to AoE spells), because a couple of mid-low lvl spells can quickly destroy it while the Globes can absorb an infinite amount of mid-low lvl spells. Stationary AoE spells in particular (e.g. Web, clouds) will get rid of Spell Deflection layers very easily, because each round they count as a xth lvl spell.

 

Long story short, I actually think Globes will still be the most important of the two types of protection. Spell Deflection may save you from one or two higher lvl spells, but it actually needs a Globe to perform as a stable and lasting protection.

[Salk]

Well, I thought that MGoI would become less interesting for me since SD would become effective against AoE spells and occupies a 3rd Lvl slot vs a 4th Lvl slot. We know how the first arcane attacks weigh often the most in the beginning of a battle. I'd rather memorize 2 of the new SD spells than 1 SD and 1 MGoI, keeping the 4th Lev slot for other kind of protections like Stoneskin.

 

But it's true I didn't think that MGoI wold take precedence over SD. That might balance things out.

[Kalindor]

Perhaps the spell reflection effect could be given to the Abjurer as a HLA ability or something?

[Ardanis]

Well, I thought that MGoI would become less interesting for me since SD would become effective against AoE spells and occupies a 3rd Lvl slot vs a 4th Lvl slot. We know how the first arcane attacks weigh often the most in the beginning of a battle. I'd rather memorize 2 of the new SD spells than 1 SD and 1 MGoI, keeping the 4th Lev slot for other kind of protections like Stoneskin.

Early in the battle enemies fire off triggers and sequencers, that do not count against their memorization limit and are capable of depleting the entire SD in one go, sometimes on more than one PC.

 

Also don't forget that AI loves to launch anti-magic attacks against protected PCs.

 

 

Perhaps the spell reflection effect could be given to the Abjurer as a HLA ability or something?

You mean that there won't be multiple characters running with this effect, and therefore a single Fireball won't be reflected back thrice? Sounds very nice to me.

[Demivrgvs]

Spell Reflection

Perhaps the spell reflection effect could be given to the Abjurer as a HLA ability or something?

You mean that there won't be multiple characters running with this effect, and therefore a single Fireball won't be reflected back thrice? Sounds very nice to me.

You know I'm really against Spell Reflection working against AoE spells. It's ridiculous to Have a mage under Spell Reflection reflect back a Fireball which exploded 20 feet from him, and leads to even more sillyness if there are multiple similar effects.

[Kalindor]

If spell reflection is an Abjurer-specific HLA, however, the party would have to have more than one Abjurer to abuse this. In that case, I think reflecting AoE would help balance it out as an HLA.

[Salk]

Early in the battle enemies fire off triggers and sequencers, that do not count against their memorization limit and are capable of depleting the entire SD in one go, sometimes on more than one PC.

 

That would assume an AI mod is installed though. Doesn't apply to vanilla game.

 

Also don't forget that AI loves to launch anti-magic attacks against protected PCs.

 

True but MGoI would also be affected, right?

[Ardanis]

Spell Trap

As long as the spell works as per vanilla, aka as a detectable spell with giant animation, neither the AI nor the player will ever cast a spell againt Spell Trap. I see two solutions to that:

a) remove the animation (doable) and make it uber fast to cast (aka make it a counterspell rather than a spell protection)

b) male it absorb AoE spells

Absorbing AoE is achieved by patching AoE spells, not spell protections. Meaning it will act against them by default.

 

Making it restore caster's spells by absorbing AoE spells would be quite terrific, and probably very exploitable imo. I really don't know.

Perhaps it is just my playing style, but I never cast AoE over myself unless outright immune to it, therefore at least for me the exploit is a pure "don't do it" thing.

[Shaitan]

I like where this is going, please continue to amaze us Demi & Ardanis

[Kalindor]

Perhaps it is just my playing style, but I never cast AoE over myself unless outright immune to it, therefore at least for me the exploit is a pure "don't do it" thing.

 

Using up your Spell Trap charges to absorb your own spells is not really exploitative considering it is a level 9 spell and you are consuming charges that would otherwise (presumably) be used to absorb enemy spells. If you are worried about the spells-for-free implications, have a look at Project Image please.

[Demivrgvs]

Spelltrap

Using up your Spell Trap charges to absorb your own spells is not really exploitative considering it is a level 9 spell and you are consuming charges that would otherwise (presumably) be used to absorb enemy spells. If you are worried about the spells-for-free implications, have a look at Project Image please.

My issue with it isn't that you can absorb your own spells, but that you can refresh your entire spellbook multiple times, including Spelltrap itself. With PI you at least lose one 7th lvl slot each time, and unless you fill all 7th lvl slots with PI you cannot repeat the process too many times, not to mention all the other differences.

 

Anyway, I wanted to study possible solutions to implement my following idea before even trying to suggest it but I'll post it right away so you know how I'd prefer this spell to work. Long story short, I'd like to make this spell work somewhat more similar to a "trap spell". The idea come up not only from the spell's name, but also because within AD&D this spell creates a sort of floating Ioun Stone which absorbs incoming spells (though only those targeted at the caster), and then release them back when desired.

 

Right now I cannot tell you a real solution, but I have quite a few crazy ideas in mind, such as making the spell a sort of "mass spell deflection" which affects the selected area. It may even look as per PnP if we make it create a floating blue ioun stone at the center of its AoE (e.g. putting a ioun stone animation on an invisible creature much like we'll do for Ball Lightning, and then using the creature's script to handle various features of this spell). Sounds like a mess eh?