Feedback: 6 arcane casters party

[veyn]

I've recently finished an SCS2 game, and below are few thoughts and comments based on my run. Played on insane, installed major mods were Ascension, SCS2 v20, Spell Revisions, Item Revisions and Rogue Rebalancing. These mods are really of great quality, the game was almost completely bug-free, and SCS2 AI was really impressive.

 

First, few words about party setup: I've had 2 F/M multis, Kensai9->Mage dual, M/C multi, Thief9->Mage dual and Sorcerer protagonist. The reason I've decided to go with all arcane casters was simple: dispel protection. Before this run I've just finished SCS1 game, and was annoyed by the fact that most mages encountered in mid-late game are higher level than party and thus easily destroy all buffs with a single Remove Magic spell.

 

This party was overpowered in most of the fights if given chance to prebuff. In the early game (before all the triggers/sequencers/contingencies became available) it was weak if not given chance to buff (fights like random encounters during travels, etc). The prebuffing sequence was rather tedious (at a minimum I used stoneskin, spirit armor, pro.magic energy, pro.elements, improved haste for 3 fighters and SI:A for most non-trivial fights, and additional buffs like death ward, chaotic commands + individual AC buffs like shield/blur/... for harder ones) - in hindsight I should have written some script for doing that. In fact, this combination of overpoweredness and tedious prebuffing made me lose interest and stop playing for a ~year when reaching amkethran - only few days ago I've decided to finish this run

 

One thing to note is that enemy mages aren't very effective against such party. They don't concentrate on removing spell defenses enough, instead preferring to cast pointless spells like teleport field. In many fights I've found that having SI:A only was enough: I would simply recast it as soon as any defense removal spell was launched. Enemies could have used Warding Whip spell (impractical to rebuff SI:A every round). With SR, they could also take advantage of the excellent Pierce Shield spell (that would force me to maintain additional higher-level spell protection).

 

Some of the fights I've liked most were the following: 2nd floor of the guarded compound (done in early game), twisted rune (probably my favourite, done late in chapter 2), kangaxx (failed pre-spellhold: couldn't breach him, so had to wait for all his PFMWs to expire; after that didn't have any +4 weapons that my fighters were proficient in), irenicus in hell (hybrid version, all documented difficulty variables set), demogorgon (all documented difficulty variables set), yaga-shura, sendai (other favourite), 4 dragons on second visit to abazigal, final ascension fight (not sure if it is affected much by SCS). There probably were other good pre-amkethran fights, but I played that more than a year ago, and nothing else comes to mind right now.

 

The second-hardest fight was probably in planar prison, the one with yuanti pack with several mages + few human mages. I did it very early in game, so didn't have much resources available. Had to use a lot of summons to drain enemy mages of spells.

 

The hardest fight by far was drow city (non-lite version). The main problems were the following:

• very long fight - some buffs expired at some point; it isn't easy to find time to rebuff. Also, seems that engine had problems with such large-scale fight: I got serious lag at times, especially when new waves arrived; also at some point I've got ~8 round pause between waves, even though according to scripts it should be much shorter.
  
• lack of feedback - with so much things going on at the same time, it is very easy to miss some critical event like buff expiring, protection being removed, etc - this is, of course, not an SCS fault. One suggestion: it would be great if different drows had different names according to the class - with everyone having a generic "Drow" name, it is hard to find proper targets.
  

Item revision's Staff of the Magi is great in this fight due to it's 25CL remove magic: many mages here don't bother prebuffing SI:A. One thing that I've accidentally stumbled upon and found very useful was Wish - grant Greater Deathblow. This is probably the only place in the game where this is useful - it allows to clear most waves really fast. If wave is cleared fast enough, combat is dropped, and it is possible to save game - also very helpful. In general, didn't like this fight too much, mainly because of the "lack of feedback" point described above. Also, looting the battlefield after the fight was painful

 

One bug that I had was that some vampires turned into mist forms and stayed in it forever, being immune to all damage and continuing to attack (and drain levels). I had this with vampires in tomb with Korgan's quest and with twisted rune vampire (replayed this fight several times, in the end was forced to ctrl-y it at the end of fight).

 

In general I've found dragons to be underwhelming: apart from wing buffet, they were simple fighter-mages with large model. Would be great if they had some more unique abilities (for example, I really like how IA handles them: dragons have inherent permanent alacrity there).

 

Fights with liches were great when they are unbreachable. After gaining SR's Pierce Shield (8th level), fights with them became like fights with any other mages. Would be great if they had immunity to all breach effects.

 

Thanks for the great mod!

[kreso]

I've recently finished an SCS2 game, and below are few thoughts and comments based on my run. Played on insane, installed major mods were Ascension, SCS2 v20, Spell Revisions, Item Revisions and Rogue Rebalancing. These mods are really of great quality, the game was almost completely bug-free, and SCS2 AI was really impressive.

Add aTweaks Undead / Demons and Refinements, than you have my core setup .

 

First, few words about party setup: I've had 2 F/M multis, Kensai9->Mage dual, M/C multi, Thief9->Mage dual and Sorcerer protagonist.

With this party, very few oponnents can be threatening. I ran something similar in Anvil and would never play such parties again. 10-15 min pre-buff.

 

The prebuffing sequence was rather tedious (at a minimum I used stoneskin, spirit armor, pro.magic energy, pro.elements, improved haste for 3 fighters and SI:A for most non-trivial fights, and additional buffs like death ward, chaotic commands + individual AC buffs like shield/blur/... for harder ones)

If you're interested, Solaufein NPC mod has buffing scripts, and you don't have to have Sola in party for them to function.

 

One thing to note is that enemy mages aren't very effective against such party.

There isn't much they can do, imo. They can cast a single spell per round. Your party can cast 6, destroying both his defences and his HP.

 

The second-hardest fight was probably in planar prison, the one with yuanti pack with several mages + few human mages. I did it very early in game, so didn't have much resources available. Had to use a lot of summons to drain enemy mages of spells.

I once ran a no-reload on Bioware forums. Warden was my demise . First Minsc was turned to stone and shattered (lost Vorpal Sword on him) and Warden confused and killed my Cavalier. I knew this was hard so left it for post-Underdark. Sweet memories anyway.

 

In general I've found dragons to be underwhelming: apart from wing buffet, they were simple fighter-mages with large model. Would be great if they had some more unique abilities (for example, I really like how IA handles them: dragons have inherent permanent alacrity there).

Well, they have Lower Fire resistance, hit for insane damage and their breath attack can chunk very easilly. I usually run them with double HP and uniterruptible spells. They are challenging enough not to fight early on imo. If you try for a no-reload, you'll think twice before engaging one in combat.

[Jarno Mikkola]

reachable. After gaining SR's Pierce Shield (8th level), fights with them became like fights with any other mages. Would be great if they had immunity to all breach effects.

Yeah, let's forget the level 7-9 and make sure the 6th level spells make the creature completelly immune to everything one can do to them.

[veyn]

kreso

Yeah, I'll probably never run such party again too - prebuffing is way too annoying, and there are little challenging fights with such setup. This was more of an experiment after my experiences with SCS1 dispels

 

Regarding mage's effectiveness - it's hard to say if it can be improved; in any case, I guess I should play with a more conventional setup - there is probably little point in optimizing AI scripts for such exotic parties.

 

Dragon's damage was rarely an issue for this party due to excellent protections; the damage output of 3 buffed fighters was also enough for killing them fast. Again, I guess I should try them with a more conventional party.

 

Jarno Mikkola

That's just an idea - do you agree that lich fights should always feel different from usual mage fights?

 

As a side note, the 6th level of mage spells has more excellent spells than any other level. IHaste is such a good buff that to be honest I think it belongs to a much higher level (8-9). It is also strange that PFMW is better than higher-level Mantle spells. I don't know if it is feasible to modify any of these spells (it would be a dramatic change to be sure), and in any case such discussion belongs to SR forum.

[Jarno Mikkola]

Jarno Mikkola

That's just an idea - do you agree that lich fights should always feel different from usual mage fights?

Well, only in the sense that they are more powerful opponents than a regular mage that's in a group of other monsters...

Not in the sense that when he casts a 6th level spell it becomes a 9th lvl spell making him immune to everything. When he wants that, he actually casts the Absolute Immunity ... and uses the 9th level spell slot on that bastard of a spell.

 

As a side note, the 6th level of mage spells has more excellent spells than any other level. IHaste is such a good buff that to be honest I think it belongs to a much higher level (8-9). It is also strange that PFMW is better than higher-level Mantle spells. I don't know if it is feasible to modify any of these spells (it would be a dramatic change to be sure), and in any case such discussion belongs to SR forum.

Well if we talk about the vanilla spells, the Mantle should be made to be the PfMW, and named to be Lesser Mantle, while the other mantle spells should get a greater Enchantment protection(yeah, the vanilla plain one is pathetic, as it actually protects from zero and +1 items) and that's it. Yep, the SR has the Mantle covered... but not the PfMW-> Lesser Mantle.

The IHaste is fine where it is... you have to have the party complement to use it correctly.

[veyn]

Jarno, I think you are confusing two completely different things: PFMW & Abs.Immunity vs. breachable/nonbreachable. It doesn't matter whether mage (or lich) casts PFMW or AI - in any case it can be removed by breach (or, in case of liches, can't - only by SR's Pierce Shield). This means that any potential tweak that will make liches completely unbreachable won't mean that 6th level PFMW spell will somehow become 9th level one.

 

The fact that 6th level PFMW and 9th level AI do essentially the same thing is indeed an issue - AI is really underpowered for 9th level spell, and I think SR will handle that in next version.

 

Re. IHaste - of course it needs to be cast on proper character to be effective - however I assume any sane party has at least one (and probably more) fighters with multiple APR. In this game physical damage dealers are usually more effective (and more reliable), and this single 6th level spell can duplicate damage output of one such damage dealer for a whole fight. To me this seems to be a very valuable effect - so much that I'll easily spend 8-9th level slots for it with any party setups I'll ever consider running.

[kreso]

The fact that 6th level PFMW and 9th level AI do essentially the same thing is indeed an issue - AI is really underpowered for 9th level spell, and I think SR will handle that in next version.

SR already hadles AI, no weapon goes through it.

 

Re. IHaste - of course it needs to be cast on proper character to be effective - however I assume any sane party has at least one (and probably more) fighters with multiple APR. In this game physical damage dealers are usually more effective (and more reliable), and this single 6th level spell can duplicate damage output of one such damage dealer for a whole fight. To me this seems to be a very valuable effect - so much that I'll easily spend 8-9th level slots for it with any party setups I'll ever consider running.

There's a "fix" for it over at SR forums. It tweaks this spell to grant +2 attacks rather than doubling them, making this spell useful for non-warriors and nerfing the whole "20 rounds whirlwind attack" thing.

[Jarno Mikkola]

Jarno, I think you are confusing two completely different things: PFMW & Abs.Immunity vs. breachable/nonbreachable. It doesn't matter whether mage (or lich) casts PFMW or AI - in any case it can be removed by breach (or, in case of liches, can't - only by SR's Pierce Shield). This means that any potential tweak that will make liches completely unbreachable won't mean that 6th level PFMW spell will somehow become 9th level one.

 

The fact that 6th level PFMW and 9th level AI do essentially the same thing is indeed an issue - AI is really underpowered for 9th level spell, and I think SR will handle that in next version.

Hih hihihi.

Erhm, you failed, the fact that the PfMW can be Breached doesn't matter ... when the character using the spell can't be Breached. This is only the iceberg of the whole thing. The real problem is that the PfMW is too powerful spell for it's level.

There's several ways to make the character unbreachable as well as having a .cre that can't be... one is to go invisible... the SCSII give the breach a small area effect to remove that counter, but it's still viable on other options, and some of them involve fighting the invisibility with True Sight etc which doesn't always go through the better protection spells(spells of level 6-8), then there's the Spell Immunity: Abjuration which takes advantage of the fact that the Breach spell is actually Adjuration spell, this rule is not in all the BG2 games, but in some it is. And the abstract fact that the PfMW being Abjuration spell doesn't move anybody except me, I have found. As the SI:Abjuration should dispel the PfMW, but doesn't. After all if you are immune tyo Adjuration spells, how can you be protected by one ?

Ouh, did I say that the AI can cheat and cast spells that the player can't ? Like PfMW & Improved Mantle/PfNW... etc. Multi summon cap,

Yes, the player can also make himself immune to all weapons by casting the PfMW and having the Bhall Spawn power from BGII:SoA's end fight...or an armor that has Protection from Normal Weapons... making one totally unbalanced character... of course having 6 of them is totally cool too, the 15 minute prepare time is nothing...

[veyn]

kreso

I think AI is going to give protection to non-physical attacks as well in v4 (at least, that's what is written in planned changes thread) - in such case, it will probably actually become a very good spell worth 9th level slot. Also, I've seen the changes planned for IH - not sure if I like them to be honest, 2x APR is definitely too much for 6th level spell, but I'd love to still have such ability as 8-9 level spell. In any case, I'll just have to try it and see how it works out - hopefully full SR v4 and Kit Revisions will be out when I'll start next SCS/*R run For the next run, I'll probably try IAv6.

 

Jarno Mikkola

Sorry, I don't really understand your point. As far as I understand, liches are unbreachable simply due to being immune to 5th level spells (due to undroppable equipped itm). What I was saying is that I really like this feature (you have to defend against incoming spells, refresh your protections and wait until lich depletes his PFMW - at lower levels such prolonged battles are lots of fun) - this is what distinguishes liches from other mages. SR's Pierce Shield overcomes this feature completely, and that's a bit disappointing.

[Jarno Mikkola]

SR's Pierce Shield overcomes this feature completely, and that's a bit disappointing.

Well, you can always go and remove that from the mod ... and I would love to be there to kick you when you are down while you do it. AS in, do not assume others like that sort of trial & error style gaming.

 

The point of my idea is that the melee protection spells should have a curved lined functionality... say like in the vanilla game the 5th level spell gives protection from normal items, the modified Mantle to the original spell description(7th lvl spell) protects from non enchanted and +1 & +2, while the Improved(8th lvl) protects from non, +1, +2 & +3... and the AI protects from all, and as a minor fact also from a lot of other effects... and the Mantle spells have other features but they are not as the dominent as the weapon protections...

Now if we go and look the course of those spells the 6th level spell should protect from which ... the answer is a non enchanted and the +1's... but it protects from the +1-+10 ... which is kinda absurd.

As the game also has original rules like the fact that the player can't have both the 5th and 6th level spell in effect at the same time(without forcibly scripting this), you'll then wonder why the cheese can the hostiles characters be able to have the 5th always on and then cast the 6th level spell and thus gaining almost the 9th level spells power with a 6th level spell.

No, you won't understand that if you don't have an understanding mind... so we'll let this go and I'll play with the rules I like and you get to do the same with yours...

[kreso]

kreso

I think AI is going to give protection to non-physical attacks as well in v4 (at least, that's what is written in planned changes thread) - in such case, it will probably actually become a very good spell worth 9th level slot. Also, I've seen the changes planned for IH - not sure if I like them to be honest, 2x APR is definitely too much for 6th level spell, but I'd love to still have such ability as 8-9 level spell. In any case, I'll just have to try it and see how it works out - hopefully full SR v4 and Kit Revisions will be out when I'll start next SCS/*R run For the next run, I'll probably try IAv6.

IH is now quite useful for Cleric and Thieves, which have decent THAC0 but previously suffered from low attacks per round. Regardless, I think 6 apr is enugh for any class not using Whirlwind attack (and in addition, you may be inclined to pick it more often as a HLA. ) It also gives AC and saves bonus.

For Anvilv6, I'd say try it out. If you haven't, make sure you play a LG Necromancer, create a custom Sorcerer, Riskbreaker, Ranger-Cleric and Berserker. Throw Valygar into the mix as well.

[InKal]

SR's Pierce Shield overcomes this feature completely, and that's a bit disappointing.

 

 

hmm..iirc pierce magic x2 (6 level spell) is pretty much enough to dispel lich's spell protections (in most cases spell turning and immunity:whatever I think) and then you can breach his combat protections no problem. you need pierce shield for 9 level spelltrap, scs liches likes that spell afaik. in scs breach bounces off spell turning, right? just like in vanilla after final TOB patch, right? so, his pfmw is completely unbreachable as long as spell turning/immunity:whatever/spelltrap is active on him. pierce magic bounces off spelltrap but cancels spell turning/immunity:whatever/every 8lvl spell (one spell lvl 1 -8), pierce shield destroys ONE spell lvl 1-9 and spellstrike destroys everything ...but! spellstrike is useless against immunity:abjuration afaik. so pierce shield is superior in scs just like ruby ray in IA. am I right?

[Jarno Mikkola]

but! spellstrike is useless against immunity:abjuration afaik. so pierce shield is superior in scs ... am I right?

That's a no. The Spellstrike goes through everything, including a spell 3 levels below it... the problem is that the player needs to have a single class mage and to have a lot of XP to get the spell...

[veyn]

Sorry for late replies guys, I didn't have internet access for almost a week

 

kreso

Re. new IH - I'll just have to try it in some future run before I can say whether I like it or no You are right in that it should be better for clerics and thieves, and maybe whirlwind attack will be enough for fighters.

Re. IAv6 - that's a bit off-topic, but I was thinking of party with Necro protagonist, 2x riskbreakers, cernd (want to try out auramasters - they look interesting "on paper"), berserker->mage and ? (R/C ? sorcerer? dunno what to put into last spot).

 

InKal

In late game I usually used 3 spells vs. any mages: secret word (instant cast, removes Spell Shield), spellstrike (removes everything else) and finally pierce shield or breach (pierce shield works vs. liches unlike breach due to spell lvl + it works in case enemy manages to recast anti-magic defense after spellstrike). As far as I remember, even though liches are immune to spells <= 5 lvl, secret word still removes their spell shield (but I'm not 100% sure about this).

 

In general, I'd say that my favourite anti-magic attacks were secret word and spellstrike. Secret word removes everything except for spelltrap (which isn't often used by enemies until late game) iirc, and its best feature is almost instant casting speed + zero projectile travel time. With my party this meant that I theoretically could instantly remove all defenses of a single enemy mage. Spellstrike is also obviously very good - it was probably my most-used level 9 spell - I usually filled all my slots with it. Pierce shield is also good - but I more often used it as a replacement for breach instead of as an anti-magic attack. Note that within SR/SCS, at least spellstrike works even if target has SI:A running, removing everything including SI:A, despite being an abjuration spell. I don't remember how other abjuration anti-magic attacks work.

 

The spells like Warding Whip or Pierce Shield (immediately after a spellstrike) would be much more useful if SCS mages would prioritize recasting removed anti-magic defenses higher. I've rarely seen this in my last game - most often this happened if enemy mage finished casting timestop right after being hit by spellstrike, but before being hit by pierce shield.

 

By the way, I just got a thought - why don't anti-magic defenses have almost-instant casting time, similarly to PFMW-like spells?

 

Jarno Mikkola

Why do you say that player needs a single-class mage to cast spellstrike? If you are talking about XP needed to cast 9th-level spells, then most duals will get it only a bit later than single-class mages (and that is chapter 5 or 6, depending on how much is done pre-spellhold); multiclasses also get it at some point in TOB or maybe in very late SOA.

[kreso]

Re. new IH - I'll just have to try it in some future run before I can say whether I like it or no You are right in that it should be better for clerics and thieves, and maybe whirlwind attack will be enough for fighters.

Well, it's a question of "game philosophy" I guess, Do you like your game harder? Probably yes.

Revision mods tend to balance OP stuff, and make underused options valid. SCS makes it harder by improving AI, adding a monster here and there etc.

Improved Anvil buffs almost everything including weapons, abilities and monsters, and in addition it makes very unnececary nerfs to some classes.

I prefer BG2 - meaning, no Anvil since it's a completely different game.

Therefore, I prefered nerfing Imp.haste for dual-wielders, and other OP stuff from vanilla while keeping the overall flavour mostly intact (you can't make a better game than BG2, and Anvil tries to do that, failing naturally)

 

Re. IAv6 - that's a bit off-topic, but I was thinking of party with Necro protagonist, 2x riskbreakers, cernd (want to try out auramasters - they look interesting "on paper"), berserker->mage and ? (R/C ? sorcerer? dunno what to put into last spot).

It's quite off-topic, but 1 time I finished it (and last) I played Necro, RB, RB, Sorcerer and Cernd. Berserker-mage instead of Sorc is better I believe, but sorcerer is crucial for summons. Super-easy, even easier than IA5. Of course, none of items or kits used have anything in common with BG2, gameplay feels like Final Fantasy.