General thoughts on difficulty with SCS v24, IR v3, SR v3.1, aTweaks

[ancalimohtar]

So I've done basically everything I could in Ch 2, and gone through Spellhold, (currently in Sahuagin city) and for the most part I think the difficulty was fine. Some thoughts on Chapters 1-4:

• 
  Beholders are tuned very well, I think.
  
• As I said in some other thread, I think dragons are super streaky--if you don't have a fighter-mage, you are going to have trouble balancing doing damage and surviving, probably functionally impossible before about 1-1.2M XP; if you do, they fall really easily by 300-500k XP. I do think this should be helped somewhat by SR v4, when Spell Immunity goes away.
  
• Liches are well-tuned I think, in spite of my strange Breach bug, and even with that, I kind of like requiring level 8 spells (Pierce Shield) before being able to kill a Lich the easy way, and level 7 spells (RRR+outlast his PfMW or chain Disintegrates until one works) the hard way.
  
• Mind flayers are extremely annoying. If they successfully hit any non-mage twice, he's dead. First attack drains intelligence down to like 5; the second kills. They're supposed to have mediocre THAC0 to balance this out, but they seem to hit quite a good amount. Doesn't matter if I'm stoneskinned, I'm going to be drained to kindergarten and beyond. (Has SR or IR introduced any method to protect against intelligence drain? I remember ability score drain was the only undefendable type of attack in vanilla.) The small mind flayer hideout in the Temple Sewers was by far the hardest part of the game I've done.
  
• Sahuagin are useless if you do everything in Ch2 before going to Spellhold
  
• Trolls are tuned well assuming you fight them early on. Greater Command is a pain in the ass, but the fact that you can wake your own party members up by hitting them is a pretty good counter, I think.
  
• Yuan-ti don't seem to be anything special. Their mages are worse than regular mages (less complete web of protection spells), and their melee are just regular melee that don't backstab or anything. Maybe each war party could have a special yuan-ti shapechanger that polymorphs into some kind of snake that constricts? Or attacks very quickly?
  
• Wolfweres and umber hulks get butchered since they're just melee.
  
• Vamps are really weak without Level drain, but if I'm not protected from it, they are just as bad as Mind flayers. Bit of a one-trick pony. Since Negative Plane Protection and Chaotic Commands are single-target, with two anti-drain items and two anti-Charm items (plus a Berserker), I need 4 NPPs and 3 CCs. Not sure how I would do this without 2 divine casters. Basically results in casting NPP/CC, then rushing through Bodhi's lair as fast as possible, pausing at every point, hoping they don't run out, which would force me to go all the way out to the Slums or somewhere to sleep. The insect-plague-type spell they cast is more interesting; I like that. Summoning a horde of wolves or rats though is kind of a meh ability. Maybe more variation in the base class levels of the vampires--some clerics and mages and vampire thieves, and tone down the level drain? Four levels a hit is pretty wipe-inducing.
  
• Golems are good, though non-Adamantite golems could use a little more beef. Flesh/Stone/etc die rather quickly
  
• 
  
• Fiends, I don't even know what's from what anymore, between SCS and SR and aTweaks. The main problem is I can't cast Gate because of a bug, but enemies' Gates work fine. So far I haven't seen Balor or Pit Fiends, only Glabrezu.
  
• Since I spend most of my party's attention at the beginning of the fight casting antimagic spells/breaching enemy mages, and then chopping them to bits, I don't really get to see what said mages really do if they live for more than 3 rounds. I think part of this is not giving enemy fighters/clerics enough juice. I don't know if SCS is willing to re-class some of these fighters into fighter-mages with Breach, but if your protections start falling and you need to cast spells defensively instead of unloading on the enemy mage, that might give enemy mages more survivability.
  
• Enemy Rogues chugging Invisibility potions after EVERY backstab attempt would be completely unbearable if it weren't for SR's Glitterdust forcing a save-or-stop-being-obnoxious. Thank god for Glitterdust. On the flipside, (maybe due to IR introducing backstab penalties for certain weapons?) I find enemy rogues don't seem to do that much damage with their backstabs. "Backstab quadruple damage" ends up being in the 20s?
  
• SR's philosophy of trying to make every spell useful tends to just make them stackable. Which is how you can easily end up with -20 AC and -5 THAC0 in chapter 2. (Great saves are balanced out by SR giving spells harsh save penalties.) This all contributes to enemy melee being gnats, and party/enemy casters being even MORE overpowered than in vanilla. My general strategy is to antimagic and breach enemy mages, while I bide my time swinging at some clerics or rogues or whoever, and as soon as the mages are vulnerable, everybody beelines for the mages and chops them up. When they're gone, it's cleanup time, where I more or less watch my party butcher the rest of the field.
  
• Enemies calling for help should emote, instead of fighting silently, and the suddenly my party is surprised with tons more dudes. I should be able to see them yelling.
  
• One-rest limit in Irenicus dungeon is good, gives it a bit of strategy. However, depending on whether I'm importing a character or starting with a new character or coming through the transition in a BGT game, I think changes whether mages start out with spells already castable or whether they need to rest. Not sure where I should post this.
  
• After playing through Spellhold naked, it feels like this was the original intention of Spellhold. But note to people with Unfinished Business who elect to be chased by Bodhi through Spellhold: Make sure you have Enchanted Weapon prepared and castable BEFORE you get sent to Spellhold, because being ambushed by Bodhi and vampires as soon as you wake up with no magical weapons sucks.
  
• Shapeshifting still sucks. Though I guess this is for something like Kit Revisions to fix, rather than SCS.
  

[kreso]

Liches are well-tuned I think, in spite of my strange Breach bug, and even with that, I kind of like requiring level 8 spells (Pierce Shield) before being able to kill a Lich the easy way, and level 7 spells (RRR+outlast his PfMW or chain Disintegrates until one works) the hard way.

I agree, ADHW with a -6 save penalty (presumably after a Malison) hurts.

 

Mind flayers are extremely annoying. If they successfully hit any non-mage twice, he's dead. First attack drains intelligence down to like 5; the second kills. They're supposed to have mediocre THAC0 to balance this out, but they seem to hit quite a good amount. Doesn't matter if I'm stoneskinned, I'm going to be drained to kindergarten and beyond. (Has SR or IR introduced any method to protect against intelligence drain?

They drain 5 int per hit, afaik it was always so. It's not their THAC0 what's giving you troubles, it's their APR number. Hopefully, aTweaks will change them into something more sensible, like it did with Undead/Mephits etc.

SR or IR won't help much vs int drain afaik.

 

Sahuagin are useless if you do everything in Ch2 before going to Spellhold

I managed to wipe them out with 2 aTweaks Elemental summons. Re-installed after that, those summons are simply too strong . Problem with Sahaugin is their low-enchanted weapons, so Elementals are completely immune to their attacks.

 

Yuan-ti don't seem to be anything special. Their mages are worse than regular mages (less complete web of protection spells), and their melee are just regular melee that don't backstab or anything. Maybe each war party could have a special yuan-ti shapechanger that polymorphs into some kind of snake that constricts? Or attacks very quickly?

I kind of agree, but not completely. If you face yuan-ti mages unprepared, these can slaughter you.

 

I find enemy rogues don't seem to do that much damage with their backstabs. "Backstab quadruple damage" ends up being in the 20s?

They don't have 18+strenght, probably only 1* in short swords, and deal 1d6X4 damage on backstab, no?

 

SR's philosophy of trying to make every spell useful tends to just make them stackable. Which is how you can easily end up with -20 AC and -5 THAC0 in chapter 2. (Great saves are balanced out by SR giving spells harsh save penalties.)

Sounds like you should download Kit Revisions beta and install revised XP/Saving Throws tables. SRv4 will adress the saving throw penalties afaik. Every spell was already "stackable" in vanilla, SR usually changes those spells' duration (you are probably thinking of Aid and Bless).

 

This all contributes to enemy melee being gnats

Lol. Weren't they always? Anyhow, I think that SCS does a fairly decent job with at least matching up their THAC0 values and potion usage/targeting system.

 

and party/enemy casters being even MORE overpowered than in vanilla.

High-level casters are indeed a bigger threat with SR.

 

My general strategy is to antimagic and breach enemy mages, while I bide my time swinging at some clerics or rogues or whoever, and as soon as the mages are vulnerable, everybody beelines for the mages and chops them up. When they're gone, it's cleanup time, where I more or less watch my party butcher the rest of the field.

I don't know why, but for some reason I love Enchantment spell school and rely upon in the most. Late game, it's ADHW galore as always.

 

Enemies calling for help should emote, instead of fighting silently, and the suddenly my party is surprised with tons more dudes. I should be able to see them yelling.

Just imagine they waved their hands .

 

Shapeshifting still sucks. Though I guess this is for something like Kit Revisions to fix, rather than SCS.

Afaik, with aTweaks, Avengers can shapechange into quite a beast (Fire Salamander) while still in BG1, and Elemental Transformation HLA is much better. Needles to say, if you want an easy BG1 run then nothing compares to a Totemic Druid.

[ancalimohtar]

They drain 5 int per hit, afaik it was always so. It's not their THAC0 what's giving you troubles, it's their APR number. Hopefully, aTweaks will change them into something more sensible, like it did with Undead/Mephits etc.

SR or IR won't help much vs int drain afaik.

 

But is there a way to protect against Int drain? I know vanilla didn't have one, but do we have one now with these mods?

 

SR's philosophy of trying to make every spell useful tends to just make them stackable. Which is how you can easily end up with -20 AC and -5 THAC0 in chapter 2. (Great saves are balanced out by SR giving spells harsh save penalties.)

Sounds like you should download Kit Revisions beta and install revised XP/Saving Throws tables. SRv4 will adress the saving throw penalties afaik. Every spell was already "stackable" in vanilla, SR usually changes those spells' duration (you are probably thinking of Aid and Bless).

Armor now sets your AC to a better value as you level up. Shield now applies a +AC adjustment, instead of "setting" your AC to 4 (useless in vanilla because you already had Armor/bracers). Strength of One now adds 2 STR instead of setting to 18/75. Barkskin now adds to your AC instead of setting it to a value. If you have the Draw Upon Divine/Holy Might Bhaalspawn power, it's very easy to get to 25 Str.

 

But yes, durations also.

 

My general strategy is to antimagic and breach enemy mages, while I bide my time swinging at some clerics or rogues or whoever, and as soon as the mages are vulnerable, everybody beelines for the mages and chops them up. When they're gone, it's cleanup time, where I more or less watch my party butcher the rest of the field.

I don't know why, but for some reason I love Enchantment spell school and rely upon in the most. Late game, it's ADHW galore as always.

 

I stayed away from all charm/domination spells. My sorcerer has 5% of kills in the party because all he does is secret word, breach, imp haste, and haste. I don't think I've skull trapped since the Irenicus dungeon. Although I'm finding Disintegrate AMAZING for vamps or liches with no Spell turning active. Having legitimately good melee in the party (who run like the freaking wind with boots of haste + haste stacking) makes buffing/debuffing so much more valuable than any damage or even most crowd control. If you can chop up any non-mage without pausing the game, all you fear are level drains, int drains, charm/hold/confusion, and enemy mages. Hence spending all my level 6 divine slots on Wondrous Recall to have more chaotic commands and NPP. I think enemy melee either need some serious beefing up, or a change to multiclass so they can put on some stoneskins or something. Or their mages need to actually haste their party. That would actually help significantly. Adding druids to enemy parties might break immersion a little (how many evil druids are there running around with slavers?), but having someone to barksin a couple people and stoneskin himself would be a big boost.

[kreso]

But is there a way to protect against Int drain? I know vanilla didn't have one, but do we have one now with these mods?

I think Mantle should do it...don't know since I usually don't play with fighters under 11 INT, so I chop them quite fast. Old Weimer's Item upgrade and Moonfruit's Improved Battles both introduced items which protect from int changes.

[ithildurnew]

Mindflayers doing less than 5 INT drain per hit won't make much difference if they have a helpless target to feast on with all their tentacles; they'll drain most non wizards in a round or two. I've not had a great deal of trouble though as long as I'm not trying to tackle them at too low lvls or without plenty of Chaotic Commands, etc. Definitely scary though; last run I did lose Valygar's brains in the temple sewers area.

 

The only thing that bothers me is that they probably shouldn't be getting ready to dine on someone's brain while there are still active enemies trying to kill them; what kind of intelligent creature pulls out their fork and knife while getting stabbed?

 

iirc the 3.5e monster manual outlines this as typical tactics for mindflayers; they'll wait for a target to be helpless or otherwise conditions to be favorable to a nice uninterrupted meal before trying to extract brain. Maybe 2e mindflayers were a bit more impatient, I donno.

[kreso]

Actually, Mind Flayers "devour brain" should kill instantly on a failed save - BG2 Mind Flayers are nothing like their PnP incarnations.

[ithildurnew]

In 3.5e, mind flayers need to hit/grapple successfully with several of their tentacles on a target in order to extract brain; iirc there's no save. Were 2e versions that different? Seems rather silly; I get that psionics might one shot/stun someone on a failed save, some spells might one shot on a failed save, etc. but a physical attack that insta kills on a failed save seems counter intuitive compared to most other forms of physical attack (makes sense that extracting brain isn't a magical effect but a physical act/attack, but eh, a lot of things in 2e were quite quirky.).

 

I suppose Assasins and monks could insta kill on a failed save. *shrug* Still think the 3.5e version makes more sense.

 

Back on point, I'm curious what the thought is on Flayers going for a mid combat meal while being stabbed at; I understand critters like SCS spiders might do that vs webbed foes (though imo that seems rather counter intuitive as well) but in general SCS's intelligent foes don't do that kind of thing; perhaps it's lack of options between uses of Psionics recharging and (for standard flayers) not have spells to cast, etc?

[DavidW]

Back on point, I'm curious what the thought is on Flayers going for a mid combat meal while being stabbed at; I understand critters like SCS spiders might do that vs webbed foes (though imo that seems rather counter intuitive as well) but in general SCS's intelligent foes don't do that kind of thing; perhaps it's lack of options between uses of Psionics recharging and (for standard flayers) not have spells to cast, etc?

Mostly it's done that way for flavour. What mind flayers canonically do is stun helpless opponents and then feast on their brains; what spiders do with victims in their webs is poison them and then wrap them up in webbing. It's nice to have a bit of variety.

 

Tactically, though, given that mind-flayer stun is relatively short duration and mind-flayer coup-de-grace is extremely quick, it's plausibly sensible in this case for the mind flayers to get some kills in quick.

[kreso]

In 3.5e, mind flayers need to hit/grapple successfully with several of their tentacles on a target in order to extract brain; iirc there's no save.

There's a save vs grapple .

[ithildurnew]

In 3.5e, mind flayers need to hit/grapple successfully with several of their tentacles on a target in order to extract brain; iirc there's no save.

There's a save vs grapple .

 

Come again? There's opposing rolls involved in resolving grapple attacks in 3.5e (vastly different from saving throw), but no save. 3.5e Mind flayers roll to attempt to grapple with their tentacles, and if they succeed in getting all four tentacles attached/win grapple 4x, they can roll to grapple again next turn; if they succeed on that attempt, they instantly extract the victim's brain, killing it instantly. There is no save.

[kreso]

I don't find opposing rolls that much different for what saving throw is in BG2.

[ithildurnew]

I don't find opposing rolls that much different for what saving throw is in BG2.

 

Well you can certainly believe that if you wish. The mechanics and math/odds of opposed rolls vs saving throws clearly indicate otherwise.

 

Reading the entry on Mind Flayer tactics in the 3.5e MM is interesting; obviously this is totally up to the DM (and BG isn't even 3.5e certainly) i.e. modder, but I think it makes sense that it says it continues to try and stun/charm/disable foes until most active opponents are either stunned or occupied by other foes, before it starts trying to extract brain from one.

 

[edit] Did some reading of the 2e versions and their tentacle attacks seem more deadly because there is no grapple check, the tentacles merely need to hit (still need to hit 4x). However they are listed as doing this in live combat only 'when surprised or when attacking a single, unarmed victim', which again, makes sense as they are not formidable physical opponents and would not enjoy being stabbed at while trying to dine!

 

No argument either way that they are meant to be nasty foes for a mid lvl party (and higher for the variants like Ulathrids and Alhoons).

[DavidW]

I don't find opposing rolls that much different for what saving throw is in BG2.

 

Well you can certainly believe that if you wish. The mechanics and math/odds of opposed rolls vs saving throws clearly indicate otherwise.

 

Mathematically, a (3.5ed) saving throw is an opposed roll in which the attacker takes 10. (Just as an attack roll is an opposed roll in which the defender takes 10.) The game mechanic in 3.5 is pretty unified, actually.

[ithildurnew]

Yes, attack rolls are in a sense taking 10 for the defender as there's a static number (10) to which AC modifiers are added which one rolls to try and match, but grapple checks don't use the same mechanics as attack rolls, as they are opposed rolls; i.e. there is no static 10 + modifier that one side rolls against. Both sides must roll after a touch attack roll lands (with varying modifiers of course).

.

Saving throws aren't exactly taking 10 either, unless you mean specificly for spells, there's a dc of 10 + spell lvl + other modifiers like casting stat bonus, feats, etc. But that's not taking 10, that's a lot of variables from spell to spell, caster to caster, and obviously doesn't apply when we're not talking about spells. But it is a more or less static number/DC the defender rolls against, that much is true.

 

However, opposed rolls like grapple checks are different. Effectively, if someone sets a saving throw dc of say +10 higher than the target's save modifier, they have a roughly 50/50 chance of avoiding the effect, and it's set, doesn't change. OTOH with opposed rolls, even if one side has a modifier +10 higher than the other side, results can vary much more widely as the +10 guy has to roll with results varying from 11 to 30 as the 'DC', whereas with the saving throw, the DC is static. There is no 'taking 10' mechanic with opposed rolls.

 

Obviously the modifier/dc for one side can be so sky high it really doesn't matter, i.e. saving throw dc 40 for a lvl 3 target or grapple modifier +40, it doesn't matter, the target's absolutely screwed. Thankfully 3.5e Mindflayers even with Improved Grapple aren't great grapplers (lack of stellar BAB and STR, no size bonus) but they do get to try 4 times per round, and vs a stunned target I'm pretty sure they auto succeed, which means if they move up to him they can extract/instakill with no save in 2 rounds (one round to get all four tentacles attached, next round extract), pretty scary. But again, they really shouldn't do this in the middle of getting hacked by other people, or else one lone flayer will almost guaranteed kill off a party member or two in any encounter; i.e. stun blast being a cone/AOE effect, chances are pretty good that at least one PC will get stunned at some point. If their prefered tactic then is to ignore the others and zoom in to dine on the stunned guy, unless the rest can kill him in 2 rounds flat the PC is dead. Strikes me as strange behavior for an intelligent creature unless it was famished to the point of insanity.

 

I suppose a pack of them however that find themselves facing PCs that have made themselves immune to their psionic attacks have few other options in BG2 besides munching while getting hacked at (unless they're the spellcasting variety); the most realistic behavior would be to use minions and try to avoid being hacked at, possible even flee, and wait until the PC's protections are down and strike... but that may be beyond the scope of SCS/BG2 or simply too infuriating to players (I had a game where the special Ulitharid that's trapped in Spellhold got beat up to the point where he Dimension Doored away from the area; I never was able to find him anywhere, and later found out Item Randomizer had given him the much coveted Bracers of Dexterity!).

[DavidW]

Yes, attack rolls are in a sense taking 10 for the defender as there's a static number (10) to which AC modifiers are added which one rolls to try and match, but grapple checks don't use the same mechanics as attack rolls, as they are opposed rolls; i.e. there is no static 10 + modifier that one side rolls against. Both sides must roll after a touch attack roll lands (with varying modifiers of course).

.

Saving throws aren't exactly taking 10 either, unless you mean specificly for spells, there's a dc of 10 + spell lvl + other modifiers like casting stat bonus, feats, etc. But that's not taking 10, that's a lot of variables from spell to spell, caster to caster, and obviously doesn't apply when we're not talking about spells. But it is a more or less static number/DC the defender rolls against, that much is true.

 

It's closer even than that. Pretty much any saving throw I can think of in 3.5 is calculated as 10+some delineated set of bonuses (e.g., monster saving throws are 10 + 1/2 level + relevant ability score).

 

Obviously, you're right just as a matter of mathematics that opposed rolls are more swingy than when one side takes 10.