General thoughts on difficulty with SCS v24, IR v3, SR v3.1, aTweaks

[ithildurnew]

Anyway, re: Mindflayers in SCS, I think the overall difficulty is about right, perhaps a touch too lethal/bloodthirsty RP/behavior-wise, but within the limits of BG2 I think the difficulty is darn good.

[Demivrgvs]

Dragons

I think dragons are super streaky--if you don't have a fighter-mage, you are going to have trouble balancing doing damage and surviving, probably functionally impossible before about 1-1.2M XP; if you do, they fall really easily by 300-500k XP. I do think this should be helped somewhat by SR v4, when Spell Immunity goes away.

I still haven't clear what IR or SR are supposed to do on this matter. Are you suggesting that IR and SR make easier fighting a dragon as long as you have a fighter/mage?

 

Anyway, if SCS could really make killing dragons literally impossible for a party of at least level 14+ I would be a happy man.

 

Mind flayers

Mind flayers are extremely annoying. If they successfully hit any non-mage twice, he's dead. First attack drains intelligence down to like 5; the second kills. They're supposed to have mediocre THAC0 to balance this out, but they seem to hit quite a good amount. Doesn't matter if I'm stoneskinned, I'm going to be drained to kindergarten and beyond.

As kreso I think the "problem" is just that mind flayer's 4 apr allows them to rip apart even non-stunned opponents while in PnP these creatures would avoid melee at any cost unless the entire opposite force is incapacitated.

 

Personally, rather than trying to make a group of mind flayers able to face a prepared party by themselves I'd make them rely more on their "slaves" (adding them if necessary) to provide both some cover for them and more variety to their offensive options. Else I don't know how they can scratch a party able to cast tons of Chaotic Commands, not to mention a Berserker with decent AC.

 

Has SR or IR introduced any method to protect against intelligence drain?

I haven't for two reasons:

- just like using vanilla's Shield of Balduran against Beholders could be considered cheating (really, if you like playing that way you may as well ctrl+y everything) I do fear an item protecting from mind flayer's INT drain would seriously ruin any effort on making those encounters balanced and fun

- immunity to INT drain would also prevent SR Imprisonment from working, as well as any other effect which alter INT (e.g. vanilla's INT boosting potions)

 

Vampires

Vamps are really weak without Level drain, but if I'm not protected from it, they are just as bad as Mind flayers. Bit of a one-trick pony.

The "one-trick pony" was exactly my biggest gripe with them in vanilla and I'm glad SCS added them additional options such as Blood Drain (is this the name?), summonning bats, and things like that. Too bad if those are not enough to make them as threatening as they should.

 

Regarding Level Drain, I always felt such ability should allow a save (albeit with a heavy penalty, like -4), but considering how many options we have within BG to counter it I can live with vanilla's level drain. That being said, 4 levels per hit with no save kinda forces you to either be protected or be slayed, and I generally prefer to leave more options rather than forcing a playstyle.

 

Maybe more variation in the base class levels of the vampires--some clerics and mages and vampire thieves, and tone down the level drain? Four levels a hit is pretty wipe-inducing.

THIS. I second this, which is a similar approach to what I suggested above for mind flayers.

 

Warriors & spellcasters

I think part of this is not giving enemy fighters/clerics enough juice.

I think SCS actually does a decent job within its limits, it's just that vanilla's non-spellcasters really offer very poor base material to work on imo. Warriors had poor equipments, stats, abilities, class selection, and so on. Heavy revisions to their cre are necessary to make them a real threat imo.

 

That being said, I do think that if DavidW will ever decide to make use of KR you'll see warriors, even plain non-kitted Fighters, posing a real threat. Add there kits like KR's Wizard Slayer and even PC controlled mages will fear for their lives.

 

I don't know if SCS is willing to re-class some of these fighters into fighter-mages with Breach, but if your protections start falling and you need to cast spells defensively instead of unloading on the enemy mage, that might give enemy mages more survivability.

Please no, don't turn warriors into even more spellcasters. BG world already has too much magic involved. If necessary just make AI mages try to tear down PC defences more.

 

Rogues

Enemy Rogues chugging Invisibility potions after EVERY backstab attempt would be completely unbearable if it weren't for SR's Glitterdust forcing a save-or-stop-being-obnoxious. Thank god for Glitterdust.

 

On the flipside, (maybe due to IR introducing backstab penalties for certain weapons?) I find enemy rogues don't seem to do that much damage with their backstabs. "Backstab quadruple damage" ends up being in the 20s?

If the text says "Backstab quadruple damage" it means that IR is not nerfing it as expected as they are probably using the correct weapons. As kreso says, don't expect them to have stats, proficiencies and weapon to perform powerful backstabs as a PC controlled thief could.

 

SR affecting game difficulty or balance

SR's philosophy of trying to make every spell useful tends to just make them stackable. Which is how you can easily end up with -20 AC and -5 THAC0 in chapter 2.

Well, part of this was intentional to give spellcasters (SCS ones too sooner or later) alternative options, such as MI + Armor Class rather than always and only use PfMW. If I overdid this just let me know and we'll discuss if anything needs to be done to avoid PC party to stack too many bonuses.

 

Great saves are balanced out by SR giving spells harsh save penalties.

SR v4 will correct this returning to a save system more similar to AD&D PnP. Overall this should not dramatically affect spellcaster's options, but simply improve non-spellcaster's survivability.

 

Rest limitations

One-rest limit in Irenicus dungeon is good, gives it a bit of strategy.

I really like this (as well as Spellhold without equipment). If I and Arda we'll ever work on a Quest Revisions mod I think this would happen more often (e.g. resting during Nalia's quest inside the castle doesn't make sense).

[ancalimohtar]

Dragons

I still haven't clear what IR or SR are supposed to do on this matter. Are you suggesting that IR and SR make easier fighting a dragon as long as you have a fighter/mage?

 

No no no. What I'm saying is, it's TOO easy to fight a dragon with F/M right now because of 1) SI: Abj, 2) the Dragonslayer set making my character immune to knockdown/pushback. The first will be somewhat addressed by SR v4, but then F/M will just cast Spell Shield instead. The dragon can keep casting Secret Word, the F/M can keep casting Spell Shield, and the whole time the F/M will chop on the dragon. I'm not sure how the dragon is supposed to gain an upper hand here. As for issue #2, like I said earlier, I really like the flavor etc of the Dragonslayer set, it's just that when wing buffet does nothing, I'm already practically immune to physical damage with stoneskins/MI, I'm already immune to dispels with SI/future Spell Shield, and I'm immune to fire from buffs/potions, there's literally nothing Firkraag can do.

 

I don't really have a well thought-out solution. Maybe give dragons two spells a round? (Is that possible?) Maybe remove the knockdown immunity of the Dragonslayer set? I don't know.

 

Anyway, if SCS could really make killing dragons literally impossible for a party of at least level 14+ I would be a happy man.

I do think 1.5M XP is about right for dragon-chopping.

Personally, rather than trying to make a group of mind flayers able to face a prepared party by themselves I'd make them rely more on their "slaves" (adding them if necessary) to provide both some cover for them and more variety to their offensive options. Else I don't know how they can scratch a party able to cast tons of Chaotic Commands, not to mention a Berserker with decent AC.

 

I agree. Mind flayers are supposed to be masterminds; they're supposed to have legions of thralls to do the fighting while they bombard from the back. It would actually make fighting mind flayers very fun if their lairs were filled with all kinds of crazy creatures, combinations that you'd never see otherwise--druids and drow and assassins and giants and ogre magi etc. And you always fight mind flayers with their thralls; they're never caught alone. They're scripted to run around and not get caught in melee; if it's possible, script their thralls to defend them at all costs. Imagine! Instead vanilla just gives us... Umber Hulks. Useless since you'll have Chaotic Commands up anyway.

 

Maybe more variation in the base class levels of the vampires--some clerics and mages and vampire thieves, and tone down the level drain? Four levels a hit is pretty wipe-inducing.

THIS. I second this, which is a similar approach to what I suggested above for mind flayers.

 

I mean, this is what D&D and all semi-faithful adaptations of D&D do best--party-based combat, where everybody has different abilities and fill different niches and clever cooperative tactics make groups more than the sum of their parts.

 

I don't know if SCS is willing to re-class some of these fighters into fighter-mages with Breach, but if your protections start falling and you need to cast spells defensively instead of unloading on the enemy mage, that might give enemy mages more survivability.

Please no, don't turn warriors into even more spellcasters. BG world already has too much magic involved. If necessary just make AI mages try to tear down PC defences more.

Okay, no adding fighter-mages, fair enough. But I don't think enemy mages hellbent on antimagicking/Breaching party mages is a good idea, because the only way to make that a credible threat is to script the AI to send all their melee after a naked party mage, and then combat would be horrendous.

 

Wait, actually I just realized something. I had WAY more trouble keeping Xan alive in BG1 than BG2, partially because he didn't have stoneskin then, but also potentially because he was my only mage. Now in my BG2 party, I have a F/M multi, a F-M dual (dualed at 9), Berserker-Cleric dual, Fighter/Druid (Jaheira), Fighter/Thief, and Xan (sorcerer). Does the SCS AI treat my multi/dual mages as mages and try to attack them instead of going after Xan? Maybe that's why enemies in the BG2 portion have seemed really not that difficult. I never have to babysit Xan now. My melee are free to do their thing.

[kreso]

Dragons

Anyway, if SCS could really make killing dragons literally impossible for a party of at least level 14+ I would be a happy man.

Nerf potions which give 5 Stoneskin, since AI don't use them (to 1 skin per use). That would make dragons more threatening by itself. Also, drop +20% physical resistance potions. 10 or 5 is enough, since it's non-dispellable and quite long-lasting. Nerf Ring of Earth Control as well. That should probably do it on your side, at least for single-classed warriors.

 

Mind flayers

Personally, rather than trying to make a group of mind flayers able to face a prepared party by themselves I'd make them rely more on their "slaves" (adding them if necessary) to provide both some cover for them and more variety to their offensive options. Else I don't know how they can scratch a party able to cast tons of Chaotic Commands, not to mention a Berserker with decent AC.

I think it would be easy to code Alhoon to join the fight sooner, rather then waiting in his little room (they're telepaths after all). If he could open doors, summon few Glabrezus and hit you via Remove magic while you're fighting 6+ Flayers it would be all but an easy fight prior to Underdark. It's not like Mind Flayers don't do damage even without instakills, those Ballistic attacks start hurting very fast, and AC will not protect you from it.

Underdark boss already has "Psionic Backlash" ability but afaik it never works....there's definitely room for improvement there - it's a Master Brain after all - he shouldn't be that pathetic to summon 2 golems and die the following round. I hope Githyanki eventually get some PnP love as well.

 

Dragons

What I'm saying is, it's TOO easy to fight a dragon with F/M

Imo, it's too easy to fight anything with an F/M, dual probably being the "worse" kind of the two, loosing only in HLA department. It's just how things are in BG2 - f/m's are virtually unstoppable, given a few mage levels above 11th. My suggestion is to play some balanced party compositions, rather than make assumptions on dragons being too easy with 2 f/m's, berserker-cleric, f/d, f/t and a sorcerer, which can wipe all of ToB clean without taking a single point of damage, SCS or not.

It's how the game is, it has nothing to do with either SCS nor Revisions mods - neither one of them adresses this, apart locking away Vecna, but that doesn't really matter much for multiclasses anyway - it takes Alacrity to fully abuse this robe.

 

I don't really have a well thought-out solution.

You know how Improved Anvil handles f/m's overpowerness vs dragons? Undispellable, unresistable silence on sight.

An area script is added which dispells any illusion spells, regardless of SI:Divination.

They gain "Lower Fire resistance" ability, which offers no save and (again) background script locks your resistance so you can't buff it up again via potion abuse.

Hard-hitting monsters have on-hit effects which dispel both combat and specific protections, including pfmw (and anything short of Apsolute Immunity), on hit. Sometimes even apply a miscast magic effect, for added measure.

Yup, that's what it takes to stop an f/m, at the very least. Or, a dead-magic zone. Since I doubt DavidW would change his dragon AI that drastically, all you can do for yourself is buff up dragon's HP to several thousand. Or tweak him yourself until he finally becomes a threat to you.

 

I mean, this is what D&D and all semi-faithful adaptations of D&D do best--party-based combat, where everybody has different abilities and fill different niches and clever cooperative tactics make groups more than the sum of their parts.

I'm afraid AI in BG2 only goes limited ways....what I found out (as in "works for me") - after trying out bunchload of mods, AI or otherwise, is SCS+balanced, themed party+bit of roleplay+bit of imagination on my side=fun. I had my share of solo f/m/t's, kensai-mages, berserker-clerics and similar characters. It just stops being fun after a while.

.

[ancalimohtar]

Dragons

What I'm saying is, it's TOO easy to fight a dragon with F/M

Imo, it's too easy to fight anything with an F/M, dual probably being the "worse" kind of the two, loosing only in HLA department. It's just how things are in BG2 - f/m's are virtually unstoppable, given a few mage levels above 11th. My suggestion is to play some balanced party compositions, rather than make assumptions on dragons being too easy with 2 f/m's, berserker-cleric, f/d, f/t and a sorcerer, which can wipe all of ToB clean without taking a single point of damage, SCS or not.

It's how the game is, it has nothing to do with either SCS nor Revisions mods - neither one of them adresses this, apart locking away Vecna, but that doesn't really matter much for multiclasses anyway - it takes Alacrity to fully abuse this robe.

 

I completely disagree. Your attitude that fighter/mages are just inherently broken is especially unproductive given that we're (ostensibly) coming up with iterative improvements on an install with SCS, SR, IR, aTweaks, and in the future, KR. Almost anything is possible to mod, and there's nothing wrong with brainstorming, even if nothing comes of it.

 

You know how Improved Anvil handles f/m's overpowerness vs dragons? Undispellable, unresistable silence on sight.

An area script is added which dispells any illusion spells, regardless of SI:Divination.

They gain "Lower Fire resistance" ability, which offers no save and (again) background script locks your resistance so you can't buff it up again via potion abuse.

Hard-hitting monsters have on-hit effects which dispel both combat and specific protections, including pfmw (and anything short of Apsolute Immunity), on hit. Sometimes even apply a miscast magic effect, for added measure.

Yup, that's what it takes to stop an f/m, at the very least. Or, a dead-magic zone. Since I doubt DavidW would change his dragon AI that drastically, all you can do for yourself is buff up dragon's HP to several thousand. Or tweak him yourself until he finally becomes a threat to you.

 

You don't need such ham-fisted tactics to defeat a F/M. Players have only the same spells AI do--actually even fewer. AI mages put up their web of protections, and players tear them down. How about the dragon just casts Khelban's followed by a Spellstrike, followed by a Pierce Shield? F/M debuffed completely. And the dragon could start off with much more in the way of combat protections, or should just have more innate damage resistance. Also recasting stoneskin every time it's down would help a lot. Maybe giving him 6 attacks a round (taking 3rd Edition as inspiration), or the ability to crush multiple targets at a time and pin them to the ground on a failed save with massive penalties, etc.

 

I still see the main problems as his main tools--knockdown/pushback and fire breath--being negated by gear. I wouldn't mind some kind of lower fire resistance spell, and I do think maybe immunity to knockdown/pushback is unrealistic at best. The dragon is knocking you down by pure strength, rather than magic.

[ithildurnew]

Isn't it SCS that already has Fiirkrag cast a Lower Fire Resistance spell? I've seen him do that on nearly every install for the past several years.

 

It does grant a save apparently; no idea whether it has save bonuses/penalties or not. I've found this makes me nervous even with fully buffed parties, and for folks without Spell Immunity Abjuration it can often spell 'game over' when he casts Remove Magic then lets out his breath.

 

As for IA's scripts, that sounds rather cheesy to be honest. I'm not sure if coming up with hamfisted no fail ways to get rid of defenses is a good solution; if you do that it means quite a high chance of 'chunking' (death with no rez possible) folks like Aerie or anyone with low HPs vs Fiirkrag's breath.

 

In general agree that NPCs should do it the same way PCs strip NPCs' protections, not cheat.

[polytope]

You know how Improved Anvil handles f/m's overpowerness vs dragons? Undispellable, unresistable silence on sight.

An area script is added which dispells any illusion spells, regardless of SI:Divination.

They gain "Lower Fire resistance" ability, which offers no save and (again) background script locks your resistance so you can't buff it up again via potion abuse.

Hard-hitting monsters have on-hit effects which dispel both combat and specific protections, including pfmw (and anything short of Apsolute Immunity), on hit. Sometimes even apply a miscast magic effect, for added measure.

Yup, that's what it takes to stop an f/m, at the very least. Or, a dead-magic zone. Since I doubt DavidW would change his dragon AI that drastically, all you can do for yourself is buff up dragon's HP to several thousand. Or tweak him yourself until he finally becomes a threat to you.

 

You don't need such ham-fisted tactics to defeat a F/M. Players have only the same spells AI do--actually even fewer. AI mages put up their web of protections, and players tear them down. How about the dragon just casts Khelban's followed by a Spellstrike, followed by a Pierce Shield? F/M debuffed completely.

 

This would essentially make a dragon a high level f/m without the "uniqueness" such a creature should have (dragons already cast too many spells to be true to PnP). Also those tactics wouldn't even work against a party like yours, because you have several arcane casters who could take turns tanking the dragon - all dragons should really have opcode #300 set so as to be able to shove blocking character's aside (currently only ToB dragons do).

 

And the dragon could start off with much more in the way of combat protections, or should just have more innate damage resistance. Also recasting stoneskin every time it's down would help a lot. Maybe giving him 6 attacks a round (taking 3rd Edition as inspiration), or the ability to crush multiple targets at a time and pin them to the ground on a failed save with massive penalties, etc.

 

All these suggestions would just make the dragon more powerful against classes without arcane spells; giving dragons 6 APR doesn't really matter in the face of ProMW but ensures you're screwed without it. Crush attacks might be cool if there was a suitable animation for it, but since there isn't...

 

The problem is that ProMW shouldn't protect against attacks like a dragon's claws or a mindflayer's tentacles. Suggestion; flag every magical weapon as silver (this flag is used for nothing in the BG series afaik, loup garou need cold iron to hit rather than silver) and have ProMW protect specifically against silver weapons - increase the duration to compensate. Now the player would need to use the much more expensive Absolute Immunity spell to block a dragon's claws.

 

Dragons dispelling illusions with a melee hit sounds fine to me... they see through illusions so they shouldn't need to waste time clearing your mirror images or flailing at a blurred opponent (probably only dispel illusions of level 2 and below since they receive no combat penalties against an improved invisible opponent anyway). Perhaps even add a little elemental damage of the appropriate type to their claws for spell disruption (Abazigal and his drakes from Ascension currently have this). It might give the dragon half a chance against a party with a couple of f/ms, and a sorcerer. Emphasis on half.

[kreso]

I completely disagree. Your attitude that fighter/mages are just inherently broken is especially unproductive given that we're (ostensibly) coming up with iterative improvements on an install with SCS, SR, IR, aTweaks, and in the future, KR. Almost anything is possible to mod, and there's nothing wrong with brainstorming, even if nothing comes of it.

It's ok to disagree, and I don't mind brainstorming. But my attitude is what it is - for a reason. In no way can BG AI be scripted to do even 10 % of what human controlled f/m can.

 

You don't need such ham-fisted tactics to defeat a F/M. Players have only the same spells AI do--actually even fewer.

Hardly does Firkraag know half the spells your f/m does. And imo, you do need such ham-fisted tactics to bring down an PC controlled f/m, let alone 2 of them, which can protect themselves for 15 attacks (which would bring a character with 500 HP down to 0) with Mirror image + Stoneskin - 2 incredibly cheap, low level spells.

 

How about the dragon just casts Khelban's followed by a Spellstrike, followed by a Pierce Shield? F/M debuffed completely. And the dragon could start off with much more in the way of combat protections, or should just have more innate damage resistance. Also recasting stoneskin every time it's down would help a lot.

And then f/m's Contingency triggers, trigger is cast, sequencer goes off etc. He can cast uninterruptible spells via scrolls as well. Don't forget that Firkraag is alone vs 6, and 3 of them in your party cast arcane spells. That's a lot of time he would be forced to waste just to debuff everything, including breaching f/d as well. He can't cast 10 spells in a single round, without some hacked casting time increase.

 

Maybe giving him 6 attacks a round (taking 3rd Edition as inspiration), or the ability to crush multiple targets at a time and pin them to the ground on a failed save with massive penalties, etc.

Anything which allows a save, sooner or later, becomes autosave. You can easilly change him to have 10 apr, it won't help him any. Even if I agree that some battles could be tougher, it's not just 5 of us here playing the mod - some players probably do have huge problems with Firkraag as it is, and I understand DavidW's reluctance to make battles harder.

 

I still see the main problems as his main tools--knockdown/pushback and fire breath--being negated by gear. I wouldn't mind some kind of lower fire resistance spell, and I do think maybe immunity to knockdown/pushback is unrealistic at best. The dragon is knocking you down by pure strength, rather than magic.

He does have lower fire resistance, and it allows a save. See my previous point. If you find Dragon Scale Shield's ability OP, don't use it. It won't make much difference.

I see as the the main problem you're having that it takes 2 rounds for him to get rid of 1 stoneskin, and another round to get rid of 1 mirror image casting, not the shield (you could stand in a corner to prevent being tossed away anyway).

 

If you do that it means quite a high chance of 'chunking' (death with no rez possible) folks like Aerie or anyone with low HPs vs Fiirkrag's breath.

Oh, yes. But then again, you'll see Anvil golems doing 8d10+8 damage on hit, and dragon's breath doing over 400 damage. It does chunk indeed, fairly regullary if you allow your resistances to drop into negatives .

 

In general agree that NPCs should do it the same way PCs strip NPCs' protections, not cheat.

I agree, but they're such underdogs in BG2 usually - their equipment aren't Carsomyr, Red dragon Armor, Vecna and Equilizer.

And still they stand in the face of the almighty Bhaalspawn after killing 1000's of oponnents; Beholders, Dragons, Gibberlings, Ghasts and Demons alike. Realistically, I'd run.

 

This would essentially make a dragon a high level f/m without the "uniqueness" such a creature should have (dragons already cast too many spells to be true to PnP).

In Anvil, dragons are f/m/c's usually, with the addition of breath attacks/silence/resistance/regen.

 

Also those tactics wouldn't even work against a party like yours, because you have several arcane casters who could take turns tanking the dragon.

They would, actually (you can see a whole thread here about IA where Saros posts his runs, with great detail - so you may see how Firkraag handles arcane casters easilly, regardless of their number). But it's Anvil and I'd rather compare BG2 than that with SCS.

 

Crush attacks might be cool if there was a suitable animation for it, but since there isn't...

It would be cool if he could jump on you .

Aerie: "oh my....I won't let my friends be hurt!"

Firkraag: SPLAT!

 

It might give the dragon half a chance against a party with a couple of f/ms, and a sorcerer. Emphasis on half.

I'd say it depends, ultimately, on the player and how good he can micro his casters.

[DavidW]

Anything which allows a save, sooner or later, becomes autosave. You can easilly change him to have 10 apr, it won't help him any. Even if I agree that some battles could be tougher, it's not just 5 of us here playing the mod - some players probably do have huge problems with Firkraag as it is, and I understand DavidW's reluctance to make battles harder.

 

Yep. I don't have the systematic impression that dragons are too easy. (Ultimately, the BG2 spell system is such that if you really, really master it, you gain a staggering advantage over people who haven't in some circumstances! But I don't want to cater only for the people who have so mastered it.)

[Demivrgvs]

DavidW do you read all our huge walls of text? Anyway, I'll try to be concise.

 

Dragons

This would essentially make a dragon a high level f/m without the "uniqueness" such a creature should have (dragons already cast too many spells to be true to PnP).

While I'm sympathetic to the whole "don't make everyone and his mother a spellcaster", the statement is kinda false. Even within AD&D dragons were F/M if not F/M/C (see here AD&D Red Dragon and Shadow Dragon), and 3E made them even more powerful spellcasters.

 

I really don't like Improved Anvil's approach, but I wouldn't mind if the dragon's attack could destroy Stoneskin (seriously, 2E version of this spell is clearly broken - this is just a case where it shows itself as such more), or if the dragon could rely on more combat abilities such as "grappling" or AoE melee attacks. I'm quite sure we can make dragons a threat even to F/M and Blades without resorting to any IA-style ability such as PfMW dispelled on sight, undispellable Silence on sight, PC's mouse stop to work and random keyboard tilt.

 

Btw, Mirror Image shouldn't really work against them. Dragons are immune to illusions.

 

What IR and/or SR can do?

Nerf potions which give 5 Stoneskin, since AI don't use them (to 1 skin per use). That would make dragons more threatening by itself. Also, drop +20% physical resistance potions. 10 or 5 is enough, since it's non-dispellable and quite long-lasting. Nerf Ring of Earth Control as well. That should probably do it on your side, at least for single-classed warriors.

All of this would only nerf non-spellcasters, and afaik it's F/M (who can cast Stoneskin with more skins, PfMW, Mirror Image, etc.) and similar power gaming classes the problem, not your standard warrior (who actually doesn't have a chance without some help). Am I wrong?

 

Regarding the "Red Dragon set" granting immunity to wing buffets (because 100% fire res was uber easy to get even in vanilla), it's just 1 character, and in theory not an arcane caster. It is supposed to help create your classic dragon slayer with a Cavalier or True Fighter, but he should not be able to single handedly kill a dragon, and the latter can just switch target and destroy the rest of the party, can't he?

 

On a minor note, kreso kinda persuaded me to nerf SR's Know Opponent divination spell, which might indeed be too good against dragons.

[kreso]

Stoneskin

seriously, 2E version of this spell is clearly broken

Here. August 2012. I like what Echon said - it should generate less skins - it would still do it's job, since it does way more than it should (a mage can't be hit for disruption via weapons, crits don't work, poison attacks fail, backstabs avoided- even if SCS thieves won't waste those on stoneskins etc.). Say, starts with 2 skins at level 7 and +1 skin every 3 levels or something, ending with 5 at level 19, by that time mages have Alacrity so it doesn't matter if they have 1 skin or 100 skins - they'll slaughter everything anyway under PFMW. I don't think nerfing it would cause such problems for AI - they rely on illusions/mobility for defence usually.

 

or if the dragon could rely on more combat abilities such as "grappling" or AoE melee attacks.

Ages ago, when I learned about how Haer'dalis can be hugely effective, I started wishing that a dragon would just split him in half. AoE won't work if you surround him, which is the most sensible thing to do anyway, since it avoids all party dispelled - tossed away - burnt to crisp issue.

 

I'm quite sure we can make dragons a threat even to F/M and Blades without resorting to any IA-style ability such as PfMW dispelled on sight, undispellable Silence on sight, PC's mouse stop to work and random keyboard tilt.

PFMW stays.

 

Btw, Mirror Image shouldn't really work against them. Dragons are immune to illusions.

I agree.However, going too far with changes can backfire easilly. See what happened to Anvil's player base.

 

What IR and/or SR can do?

All of this would only nerf non-spellcasters, and afaik it's F/M (who can cast Stoneskin with more skins, PfMW, Mirror Image, etc.) and similar power gaming classes the problem, not your standard warrior (who actually doesn't have a chance without some help). Am I wrong?

You're not, but in the spirit of "fair play" towards AI who doesn't put stoneskin on single-classed warriors, I'd change them. SCS can handle them via Breach, but I still find those 2 potion types to be extremely effective. Remember, next IR will add damage resistance to armor, and I don't think it's cool when you see a 55% damage resistant Paladin making parades in BG1.

Couple these potions with a decent AC, you've got one hell of an f/m in BG1.

 

On a minor note, kreso kinda persuaded me to nerf SR's Know Opponent divination spell, which might indeed be too good against dragons.

My diabolical plan is working then . Nah, keep it as KR's Bounty Hunter exclusive kit ability.

[ancalimohtar]

How about the dragon just casts Khelban's followed by a Spellstrike, followed by a Pierce Shield? F/M debuffed completely. And the dragon could start off with much more in the way of combat protections, or should just have more innate damage resistance. Also recasting stoneskin every time it's down would help a lot.

And then f/m's Contingency triggers, trigger is cast, sequencer goes off etc. He can cast uninterruptible spells via scrolls as well. Don't forget that Firkraag is alone vs 6, and 3 of them in your party cast arcane spells. That's a lot of time he would be forced to waste just to debuff everything, including breaching f/d as well. He can't cast 10 spells in a single round, without some hacked casting time increase.

 

Why not apply the same idea to Firkraag that we talked about regarding mindflayers--give him some backup. Change the quest some so he doesn't pit his pet mage against you just for shits and giggles (which made NO sense at all), and at the beginning of the fight, his pet mage unloads antimagic? Or give him two pet mages. Either way, I don't think it's absurd if his backup is mainly there to antimagic/Breach you.

 

Maybe giving him 6 attacks a round (taking 3rd Edition as inspiration), or the ability to crush multiple targets at a time and pin them to the ground on a failed save with massive penalties, etc.

Anything which allows a save, sooner or later, becomes autosave.

 

 

What? Why? Just because of potions that guarantee a successful save? Fix those potions then, not the mechanic. In 3.5E a Great Wyrm red dragon has a pin DC of 40, a grapple check bonus of +73. Seventy three. You are not going to win against the dragon if he wants to keep you in his mouth/under his claw. Make the save penalty -12, or hell, do away with it, who cares? Let him crush someone, and knock others back.

 

He does have lower fire resistance, and it allows a save. See my previous point. If you find Dragon Scale Shield's ability OP, don't use it. It won't make much difference. I see as the the main problem you're having that it takes 2 rounds for him to get rid of 1 stoneskin, and another round to get rid of 1 mirror image casting, not the shield (you could stand in a corner to prevent being tossed away anyway).

 

Take away the save on lower fire res. Give dragons an ability to crush stoneskins, and some kind of unblockable TS. Have the combat log say "Charname- Stoneskins crushed" and "Firkraag- Dragon senses" followed by "CHARNAME- Illusions dispelled" or something to alert the player dragons have special abilities.

 

In general agree that NPCs should do it the same way PCs strip NPCs' protections, not cheat.

I agree, but they're such underdogs in BG2 usually - their equipment aren't Carsomyr, Red dragon Armor, Vecna and Equilizer. And still they stand in the face of the almighty Bhaalspawn after killing 1000's of oponnents; Beholders, Dragons, Gibberlings, Ghasts and Demons alike. Realistically, I'd run.

 

No, Firkraag's equipment is "millions of pounds of magical muscles toned over hundreds of years of killing things layered with natural armor better than any a dwarf could make, with special eyes and senses and ancient magical abilities." What's a sword compared to that? Players have to put on gear, but dragon's have it in their physiology, magical nature, and development over eons. I really don't think giving dragons special abilities is crazy.

 

Crush attacks might be cool if there was a suitable animation for it, but since there isn't...

It would be cool if he could jump on you . Aerie: "oh my....I won't let my friends be hurt!" Firkraag: SPLAT!

 

Don't really need an animation, do we? Just anyone in melee range who gets targeted gets the unconscious animation, but is treated as held, and the combat text says "CHARNAME- Crushed and pinned".

 

Yep. I don't have the systematic impression that dragons are too easy. (Ultimately, the BG2 spell system is such that if you really, really master it, you gain a staggering advantage over people who haven't in some circumstances! But I don't want to cater only for the people who have so mastered it.)

 

I agree. If I know all the ins and outs of the system, and know what's coming, AND rest specifically for this fight, then I should be able to win. That's perfectly fine.

 

Regarding the "Red Dragon set" granting immunity to wing buffets (because 100% fire res was uber easy to get even in vanilla), it's just 1 character, and in theory not an arcane caster. It is supposed to help create your classic dragon slayer with a Cavalier or True Fighter, but he should not be able to single handedly kill a dragon, and the latter can just switch target and destroy the rest of the party, can't he?

 

No, because I kept the rest of the party at the entrance. Just the F/M and a sorc standing at a distance antimagicking. Regarding immunities in general, it's all fine and good to be immune to fear, magical or otherwise, but to put on an item that makes you immune to being held (presumably against magical Hold effects) that somehow prevents the dragon from stepping on your face and pinning you there with tens of thousands of pounds of pressure--I'm not sure that makes sense. Would it make sense to give dragons the ability to pin one or two targets, regardless of PfMW or stoneskins or whatever?

 

Also, slightly off-topic, but I had two questions: 1) Since I never played PnP 2nd Edition, I always wondered if it was close to BG2? Mage battles are one of the most iconic aspects of BG2, and I always wondered if the spell protection and antimagic system came out of nowhere, or whether it was an adaptation of 2E? and 2) How many hit dice does a multiclassed character have, for the purposes of spells like SR's Holy Word, etc? Say, 1.5M XP F/M, so 11/12.

[DavidW]

Cool though some of the dragon ideas are, it's a bit outside SCS's remit - I generally try to keep fairly low-key in my changes. (Other than the increased hit points, I don't think SCS Firkraag demonstrates any ability not available to the vanilla version.)

[kreso]

Why not apply the same idea to Firkraag that we talked about regarding mindflayers--give him some backup. Change the quest some so he doesn't pit his pet mage against you just for shits and giggles (which made NO sense at all), and at the beginning of the fight, his pet mage unloads antimagic? Or give him two pet mages. Either way, I don't think it's absurd if his backup is mainly there to antimagic/Breach you.

It isn't absurd, but take it from a role-playing perspective - Firkraag is very vain. He is assured that PC wouldn't even think about attacking him, and is rather amused by that idea. From his persective, he makes logical decisions.

Otoh, I dug out something for you. This version of Firkraag probably has all you want, so you might give this a go. And no, he isn't concerned about being "fair".

 

What? Why? Just because of potions that guarantee a successful save? Fix those potions then, not the mechanic.

As much as I dislike those potions, they're very rare fortunately, so they're at least in check. I think changing such things may backfire on AI instead of party, which also uses them.

 

Take away the save on lower fire res. Give dragons an ability to crush stoneskins, and some kind of unblockable TS. Have the combat log say "Charname- Stoneskins crushed" and "Firkraag- Dragon senses" followed by "CHARNAME- Illusions dispelled" or something to alert the player dragons have special abilities.

This may indeed be bit far from SCS I think.

 

I really don't think giving dragons special abilities is crazy.

Neither do I. But he already has Breath attack, lower fire resistance and wing buffet.

 

 

No, because I kept the rest of the party at the entrance.

I tried that approach few times. It's funny what happens if Firkraag pokes around a bit just to check on those "near-exit" guys' body temperature.

[Demivrgvs]

What IR and/or SR can do?

All of this would only nerf non-spellcasters, and afaik it's F/M (who can cast Stoneskin with more skins, PfMW, Mirror Image, etc.) and similar power gaming classes the problem, not your standard warrior (who actually doesn't have a chance without some help). Am I wrong?

You're not, but in the spirit of "fair play" towards AI who doesn't put stoneskin on single-classed warriors, I'd change them. SCS can handle them via Breach, but I still find those 2 potion types to be extremely effective.

The same was true for SR boosting spells which the AI did not used because they were underpowered or unpractical (e.g. SCS uses Lightning Bolt when SR is installed because SR makes it "reliable"), but just like SCS makes good use of SR I do hope one day it will make use of IR's potions (and eventually KR too!).

 

That being said, while those two powerful potions are not used by SCS (because they were pointless in vanilla) boosting potions in general should favor AI more than PC (in theory). SCS do make use of potions (thus IR's potions too), and while it's reasonable for each opponent to have a bunch of them, within IR (which also messes with stores and prices in many ways) the party is not supposed to be able to afford the cost of buying and using potions on a regular basis. I'm not sure if this currently happens, but that is what I was hoping to accomplish in the long run.

 

Remember, next IR will add damage resistance to armor, and I don't think it's cool when you see a 55% damage resistant Paladin making parades in BG1.

Couple these potions with a decent AC, you've got one hell of an f/m in BG1.

There's plenty of ways to handle this, from reducing the duration of effects gained from potions (e.g from 5 turns to 10 rounds) to making certain effects not stack (e.g. Potion of Absorption, Armor of Faith and/or Hardiness can be tweaked to prevent stacking).

 

On a minor note, kreso kinda persuaded me to nerf SR's Know Opponent divination spell, which might indeed be too good against dragons.

My diabolical plan is working then . Nah, keep it as KR's Bounty Hunter exclusive kit ability.

Actually it's pretty much what I planned to do with Ranger's Quarry ability.

 

Also, slightly off-topic, but I had two questions: 1) Since I never played PnP 2nd Edition, I always wondered if it was close to BG2? Mage battles are one of the most iconic aspects of BG2, and I always wondered if the spell protection and antimagic system came out of nowhere, or whether it was an adaptation of 2E?

Short answer: most of it is BG-only, but not all of it.

 

Long answer: certain spells do existed in PnP but were either kinda different or not exploitable as within BG. For example:

* Breach Defenses - that's AD&D name for Breach - did not dispelled all those protections, but it made any targeted creature normally immune to normal or magical weapon (be it via PfMW-like spells or an innate resistance such as golem's immunities) vulnerable to any weapon, while slightly lowering target's armor class.

* Spell Immunity granted immunity to a single selected spell not an entire school of magic

* Spell shield was more like a "mind shield"

* Invulnerability to Magical Weapons - that's AD&D name for PfMW - would only protect from magical weapons, and not from attacks such as a golem's fist or a dragon's claw, not to mention it could not be used together with any form of immunity to non-magical weapons (aka it could NEVER be used to obtain full immunity such as when cast by liches).

* Pierce Magic temporarily erased target's magic resistance and defences (pretty much as per SR)

* Spell Turning existed, but Spell Deflection did not

* almost all of BG's spell removals either never existed (Spell Thrust, Secret Word) or were not spell removals (Ruby Ray of Reversal)

You might have noticed what's the biggest difference between BG and PnP, mages are incredibly more vulnerable outside of BG, making warrior's role as tanks much more crucial imo.

 

2) How many hit dice does a multiclassed character have, for the purposes of spells like SR's Holy Word, etc? Say, 1.5M XP F/M, so 11/12.

Good question...I guess either 11 or 12, but I never really tested it.