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Divine caster balance - cleric vs druid


hemike

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I'm wondering if people experienced in playing with this mod could comment on the relative balance between clerics and druids with these changes. In vanilla, the common wisdom is that druid spell selection is a bit worse than clerics, and I see a lot of powerful druid spells being weakened (Insect Swarm, Ironskin). Do the added and tweaked druid spells make up for that? Are the druid spells reasonably comparable to cleric spells, or are they much weaker?

 

Along the same lines, I see that some spells are being removed from the druid's repertoire in V4, and instant healing spells removed. I'm worried that druids are going to be made a poorer spellcasting choice if I install the mod.

 

Thanks for any insight.

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At least at in BG1, the healing spells are not ever needed to be instantaneous, well unless you miscalculate and then there's healing potions. It's more usually about the max healing power.

There's mages that do a bloat load of more damage than what clerics or druids can do there too, so. Well, in BG1 you usually have Jaheira, and as a half fighter, she isn't going to be a high damage dealer with her magic, but a healer, and this is where the regeneration shines. So now instead of just one Kagain, you practically got 6. With a bit less ranged attack power(when compared to a fighter with a bow).

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could comment

Always. :)

 

 

In vanilla, the common wisdom is that druid spell selection is a bit worse than clerics, and I see a lot of powerful druid spells being weakened (Insect Swarm, Ironskin).

Ironskin is afaik the same as vanilla, only it's a "combat protection", while in vanilla it's "spell protection" (even if it doesn't protect you from spells).

Insect Swarm needed to be toned down, since that spell in it's vanilla version is very overpowering.

 

 

Do the added and tweaked druid spells make up for that? Are the druid spells reasonably comparable to cleric spells, or are they much weaker?

Yes. Druids are a bit specific, they're worse then clerics in healing/protection, they're worse than mages in offensive, but have a lot of unique cards to play. I like them, fwiw.

 

 

I'm worried that druids are going to be made a poorer spellcasting choice if I install the mod.

Revision mods are pretty much made to be balanced (i.e. one spell can not be 100 times better than another spell of the same level). Thus, I don't think you need to be worried. In many ways, druids are better than their vanilla incarnations. They don't have "instawin" spells like old Insect Plague/Nature's Beauty, but a lot of their repertoire got a significant buff.

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Yes. Druids are a bit specific, they're worse then clerics in healing/protection, they're worse than mages in offensive, but have a lot of unique cards to play. I like them, fwiw.

 

 

Revision mods are pretty much made to be balanced (i.e. one spell can not be 100 times better than another spell of the same level). Thus, I don't think you need to be worried. In many ways, druids are better than their vanilla incarnations. They don't have "instawin" spells like old Insect Plague/Nature's Beauty, but a lot of their repertoire got a significant buff.

 

 

 

Thanks for your comments :) . Druids are kind of a mixed bag of a few very good spells with more junk spells. It's certainly good to even them out a bit.

 

I'm wondering if you could give some examples of some standout druid spells with SR? What have you found to be the best in their repertoire, and they on par with some of the standout cleric spells?

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I'm wondering if you could give some examples of some standout druid spells with SR? What have you found to be the best in their repertoire

Sure.

level 1 - Entangle, Sunscorch

level 2 - Barkskin, Res Fire/Cold, Fire Trap

level 3 - Call Lightning, Storm shield

level 4 - Ice Storm, Free Action

level 5 - insects, Ironskins, Mass Regenerate, True Seeing

level 6 - Dolorous Decay, any Elemental summon

level 7 - Shambling Mound, Fire Storm

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In vanilla, the common wisdom is that druid spell selection is a bit worse than clerics, and I see a lot of powerful druid spells being weakened (Insect Swarm, Ironskin).

I made it affected by Breach but Ironskin actually got buffed from a long 1 round casting time to an almost instantaneous 1.

 

Who said Insect Swarm has been weakened? It potentially does a lot more damage, it now has a mass debuff (-2 thac0/AC penalty) with no save, and bypasses magic resistance! It's not an "I WIN button" against spellcasters, but it's still extremely effective against them, even when they make their save.

 

Do the added and tweaked druid spells make up for that? Are the druid spells reasonably comparable to cleric spells, or are they much weaker?

I'm biased, but the plan was to make druid's spellbook better, not weaker, while also making it much more unique than vanilla's sub-cleric variant with just a handful unique OP spells. The plan is still not fully realized because there a few missing new spells but I actually thought the current druid is already in a really great shape. Am I wrong?

 

The above mentioned plan to differentiate druids from clerics can be summarized by this imo:

- clerics focus on Abjuration, Necromancy, and Enchantment spells

-- druids focus on Evocation, Conjuration, and Transmutation spells

- clerics have heavy armors and better weapons

-- druids have actually useful shapeshifting forms (KR is needed for this)

 

Along the same lines, I see that some spells are being removed from the druid's repertoire in V4, and instant healing spells removed. I'm worried that druids are going to be made a poorer spellcasting choice if I install the mod.

Cure Wound spells have been replaced by Regenerate Wound spells, which are different but surely not inferior imo.

 

I'm wondering if you could give some examples of some standout druid spells with SR? What have you found to be the best in their repertoire.

Ideally no spell should clearly stand out within SR, all of them should be good, but Kreso's picks are among the more widely useful I guess.

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Thanks for responding Demi!

 

I'm biased, but the plan was to make druid's spellbook better, not weaker, while also making it much more unique than vanilla's sub-cleric variant with just a handful unique OP spells. The plan is still not fully realized because there a few missing new spells but I actually thought the current druid is already in a really great shape. Am I wrong?

 

 

No, I don't think you're wrong. I must confess again that I am not thoroughly familiar with the overall effect of SR on the caster classes. Just in looking through the spell changes for V4, I noticed a lot of spells said "no longer available for druids" or something similar, which had me worried. I definitely agree that spells like Insect Swam should not be cheesy wins against casters, and I like the changes you made. I was just worried that it was a "crutch" for druids and that other spells were not buffed to compensate. Thanks for clarifying though, it has addressed my probably unfounded worries.

 

 

The above mentioned plan to differentiate druids from clerics can be summarized by this imo:

- clerics focus on Abjuration, Necromancy, and Enchantment spells

-- druids focus on Evocation, Conjuration, and Transmutation spells

- clerics have heavy armors and better weapons

-- druids have actually useful shapeshifting forms (KR is needed for this)

 

 

Thanks for the explanation. Makes sense.

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Just to give you an idea: I've been dying to play bg2 again and I simply refuse to do it unless I have SR installed, leaving me waiting with baited breath for the new version (I picked up BG2EE)

Just so you know, I can give you an SR build which works with BG2EE.

 

This mod makes my favorite class rock.

:)

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Just to give you an idea: I've been dying to play bg2 again and I simply refuse to do it unless I have SR installed, leaving me waiting with baited breath for the new version (I picked up BG2EE)

Just so you know, I can give you an SR build which works with BG2EE.

 

This mod makes my favorite class rock.

:)

 

You earned that smile -- I'm not joking, i tried to play the game and realized I couldn't do it without how wonderful you make the game. If you do have a build, I"d appreciate it, but I bring it up mostly to give you a much-deserved shout out.

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