Dexterity Checks?

[Lauriel]

Is it possible to have an effect have a chance of failure due to a dexterity check?  You know, the old PnP roll to see if you are quick enough to get out of the way?  I know doodle squat about modding spells, but I'd like to do one in the near future that has this check, if it's possible.

EDIT: Actually, it won't be a spell but a physical attack...that I think will require it to act like a spell with a projectile, etc.  Basically, I want glitterdust and caltrops to be purchasable rogue items that are thrown but can be avoided if a dexterity check is passed.

Edited July 14, 2020 by Lauriel

[subtledoctor]

Can be done with the EEs, sort of, kind of, but it’s a big PITA and it would be a lot easier to just use a save vs. Breath Weapon. (Which basically serves that purpose in 2E.)

[Jarno Mikkola]

5 hours ago, Lauriel said:

1) Is it possible ...

2) EDIT: Actually, it won't be a spell but a physical attack.

3) Basically, I want glitterdust and caltrops to be purchasable rogue items that are thrown but can be avoided if a dexterity check is passed.

1. Like said yes.

2. No, it will be a spell that the "items user will cast". Just like every potion under the sun.

3... The Breath Weapons saves and dex checks are the same thing, from 2nd ed to 5th ed. Ususally the breath weapons do half damage cause the other is non savable... and it's almost never a Xd6, cause it's actually Xd3+Xd3 save-able. Look for fireball(spwi304.spl).

[DavidW]

1 hour ago, Jarno Mikkola said:

1. Like said yes.

2. No, it will be a spell that the "items user will cast". Just like every potion under the sun.

3... The Breath Weapons saves and dex checks are the same thing, from 2nd ed to 5th ed. Ususally the breath weapons do half damage cause the other is non savable... and it's almost never a Xd6, cause it's actually Xd3+Xd3 save-able. Look for fireball(spwi304.spl).

2: distinguish 'spell' in the engine sense from 'spell in the in-game sense.

3: not true in either 2nd or 3rd edition. (Also, the Xd3+Xd3 thing isn't true on EE - there's a save-for-half flag instead.)

[Jarno Mikkola]

2 hours ago, DavidW said:

2: distinguish 'spell' in the engine sense from 'spell in the in-game sense.

3: not true in either 2nd or 3rd edition. (Also, the Xd3+Xd3 thing isn't true on EE - there's a save-for-half flag instead.)

2. Erhm, I wonder if this is a trap, cause I would think you knew this better than I do... but whatgever. In-the-engine sense which ever action is done via the effects, is done with a spell. The distinct thing with spells in the engine; is that when they are cast, it takes the whole turn(6 real seconds in 30 FPS speed) to be able to be cast again, without the spell casting aura be cleansed... if it is, then the casting duration is the only thing holding things back. This is ALL item related usage, the games magic casting stuff and so on. The spells of course can stack on top of each others, at least in EE, as the old engine had the timer problem with the timed effects. But you know all of this.

Spell in-game sense is not a thing... well, just like science is just knowledge in our world, when adopted correctly, it does things, without needing to be seen. As does money.

... unless you want to trap me somehow with clever words. So, we just look at the engine level.

3. Do you have an example of this... cause we were discussion about the damage-save relation with damaging effects. There are other rules for skills.. but those are not tightly exactly just based on dexterity checks.

It is... just extract the spwi304.spl from your BG2 - ToB into your BG2EE's override folder and wonder ouh wonder, it works as intended. Which is what I was actually wondering when std talked about it being a pita.

[DavidW]

On (2), I didn't mean anything very deep. Just that lots of things that aren't spells from an in-world perspective (like dragon breath, or nonmagical traps, or psionic attacks) are created by 'SPL' files. (And conversely, occasional things that are spells in-game, like Irenicus's sleep effect in Spellhold, aren't created by SPL files).

On (3), AD&D 2nd edition used ability checks (roll d20, try to get your ability score or under) from time to time. It even occasionally supported using them in lieu of saving throws (see, e.g., AD&D 2nd edition Player's Handbook, p.101: 'ability checks as saving throws'.) And high Dexterity doesn't generally improve your agility-based saving throws. D&D 3rd edition more systematically lets ability scores affect saving throws, but still sharply distinguishes ability checks (roll d20, add your ability modifier) from saving throws (roll d20, add your save modifier) - a Reflex save, for instance, includes your Dexterity modifier but also includes the effect from a cloak of resistance, a Haste spell, and your base saving throw modifier, and so usually is going to generate a rather higher number. It's not until 4th or 5th edition that the distinction gets dropped and we just have the idea of a Dexterity save.

As for Xd3+Xd3, of course I agree that it still works in EE. But you said something stronger: that save-for-half effects 'almost never' just do Xd6, they use the Xd3 + Xd3 trick instead. That's not true in EE: if you look at spwi304, it uses the save-for-half flag. (Actually, even in the original engine,  it's normally (X/2)d6 + (X/2)d6, I think - same average, different variance.)

[subtledoctor]

The more direct issue is that BG2 and its ilk have a built-in mechanism for saving throws to avoid area-effect stuff (though its use is not always consistent (though, there are mods to improve that (ahem))), but does not have a mechanism to easily implement ability score checks. 

Why use a singular, convoluted instance of an ability check mechanism, rather than using a save vs. breath and, if desired, separately set ability scores to modify saves vs. breath (ditto (ahem))?

Edited July 14, 2020 by subtledoctor

[Jarno Mikkola]

1 hour ago, DavidW said:

On (2), I didn't mean anything very deep. Just that lots of things that aren't spells from an in-world perspective (like dragon breath, or nonmagical traps, or psionic attacks) are created by 'SPL' files. (And conversely, occasional things that are spells in-game, like Irenicus's sleep effect in Spellhold, aren't created by SPL files).

I am still quite sure if the dragon could use it's breath as a weapon, it would be energy based... aka magic. And the non magical traps use a mechanical device to either lauch something or subject the damage via physical phemomenon, aka magic. Magic.

[Lauriel]

6 hours ago, DavidW said:

2: distinguish 'spell' in the engine sense from 'spell in the in-game sense.

Right - it'll be a physical attack from the characters' point of view but a spell as far as the engine is concerned.  Well said.  This is what I meant.  Sorry all for not communicating well. It won't require a spell book, or any sort of training.  It will behave more like the fire potions that are thrown.  It doesn't take anything (other than perhaps it should require strength) to 'cast' it.  This leads me down another rabbit hole...is it possible to modify the range of a spell (i.e., how far a fire potion can be thrown) based on strength?  Or is it always an all-or-nothing sort of deal.  Would you have to have multiple versions of the spell/item?

I'm still trying to absorb the rest of the discussion...

 

 

 

Edited July 14, 2020 by Lauriel

[DavidW]

At the technical level I think I agree with subtledoctor: while in EE you can more-or-less simulate a Dexterity check, the complexity* is out of all proportion to the advantage and you'd do better just using a save vs. breath weapon. (As an additional issue, the game's allocation of Dexterity scores to enemy NPCs is unreliable: they're often just given 10 and some ad hoc AC and attack bonuses.)

* my immediate thought as to how to do it is to do 20 different opcode-318 checks, each with a 5% chance of occurring, each keyed to the target's Dex being above a certain value, with that value varying from check to check. Ugh.

 

[Lauriel]

2 hours ago, DavidW said:

a Reflex save, for instance, includes your Dexterity modifier but also includes the effect from a cloak of resistance, a Haste spell, and your base saving throw modifier, and so usually is going to generate a rather higher number

Yes, this is what I want.  Is this a thing in the game?

 

1 hour ago, subtledoctor said:

The more direct issue is that BG2 and its ilk have a built-in mechanism for saving throws to avoid area-effect stuff (though its use is not always consistent (though, there are mods to improve that (ahem))), but does not have a mechanism to easily implement ability score checks. 

Why use a singular, convoluted instance of an ability check mechanism, rather than using a save vs. breath and, if desired, separately set ability scores to modify saves vs. breath (ditto (ahem))?

Ok, which mod does this magic and do I have your permission to copy it's methodology when the time comes?

 

15 minutes ago, DavidW said:

(As an additional issue, the game's allocation of Dexterity scores to enemy NPCs is unreliable: they're often just given 10 and some ad hoc AC and attack bonuses.)

Ahh, that does sort of negate the need for dexterity checks then, doesn't it.  Unless I'm planning on also setting the dexterity of every NPC in the game.  Heh - actually I can see me doing that, but not for the initial version I don't think. LOL

 

2 hours ago, Jarno Mikkola said:

just extract the spwi304.spl from your BG2 - ToB into your BG2EE's override folder

I'll do this.  It will be a good place to start.

 

Thank you all for your input!

Edited July 14, 2020 by Lauriel

[subtledoctor]

3 hours ago, Lauriel said:

Is this a thing in the game?

Nope. 

3 hours ago, Lauriel said:

which mod does this magic

Mine:

See here, lines ~160-1,000. Not quite for the faint if heart. My code give bonuses to saves vs. Breath for high CHA, on the theory that DEX is already such a great stat (and that mod makes it better, adding melee thac0 bonuses).  Idea is, DEX is good for avoiding being struck by attacks, while avoiding AoE effects comes down to luck/fate, as measured by your CHA score. 

But the Breath save bonuses could easily be moved to DEX. Come to think of it, I should really just make that component user-configurable. 

4 hours ago, DavidW said:

As an additional issue, the game's allocation of Dexterity scores to enemy NPCs is unreliable: they're often just given 10 and some ad hoc AC and attack bonuses.

This. My mod addresses this a bit, making sure any NPCs with the Fighter class have at least 16 STR and any NPCs with the Thief class have at least 17 DEX. But that only goes so far. A lot of enemies have all-9s for ability scores. 

4 hours ago, DavidW said:

my immediate thought as to how to do it is to do 20 different opcode-318 checks, each with a 5% chance of occurring, each keyed to the target's Dex being above a certain value,

Basically yes. You don’t need the 5% chance thing if you set the stat checks correctly. And using 326 might be more straightforward than using 318. But yeah the gist is, you set a particular effect (or save bonus/penalty, or whatever) for each and every possible stat score. Annoying, and for the above reason, not that effective. 

[Jarno Mikkola]

14 minutes ago, subtledoctor said:

My mod addresses this a bit, making sure any NPCs with the Fighter class have at least 16 STR and any NPCs with the Thief class have at least 17 DEX. But that only goes so far. A lot of enemies have all-9s for ability scores. 

Yeah, you just churn a mod thjat allows thieves gain AC and ranged damage and Thac0 bonus and fighters get better thac0. You might not want to do this... see the example of the Candlekeep's staged tutorial fight that turned to be deadly. Classics are classic.

[Lauriel]

5 hours ago, Lauriel said:

8 hours ago, Jarno Mikkola said:

just extract the spwi304.spl from your BG2 - ToB into your BG2EE's override folder

I'll do this.  It will be a good place to start.

Actually, I can't do this.  I don't own vanilla BG2, only BG2EE.  Bugger...

[Jarno Mikkola]

45 minutes ago, Lauriel said:

Actually, I can't do this.  I don't own vanilla BG2, only BG2EE.  Bugger...

Well, no longer need to export... just load:

SPWI304.zip