Troll handling in ee

[Guest Jim]

Read around that troll handling (their falling on the ground when damaged) is better handled by ee. Is that true? And what are the differences with classical bg?

[DavidW]

The intended functioning (troll falls unconscious below about 10hp, needs fire or acid to hurt it further, recovers after a couple of rounds) is the same in both.

The implementation is quite different. In classic BG2, it's done by scripts and by an extra, near-death, version of the troll creature: the troll's script tells it to polymorph into the near-death troll when its hit points are low enough, and the near-death troll is told to polymorph back into the dead troll after a timer expires. The main problem is that scripts don't always reliably fire, especially if there's a lot going on - sometimes you have to back off for a second to let the troll fall. A secondary problem is that it's easy to introduce bugs where the troll comes back to life as a different creature, since there's no requirement that the sleeping troll script reintroduces the creature that created it. A  tertiary problem is that it's awkward for trolls to drop loot.

In EE, the troll has an effect on it (actually, on an item it wears) that triggers when it gets to <10hp. The effect casts a spell that knocks the troll unconscious, makes it immune to all damage types except fire and acid, removes its immunity to death so that it can actually be killed, and does a delayed healing effect on the troll. There's no need for anything in the scripts or for an extra creature file.

In my experience, the EE version is drastically more robust, though still not quite perfect.

[Luke]

37 minutes ago, DavidW said:

... though still not quite perfect.

Just for completeness: were you perhaps referring about the fact that opcode #232 triggers once per round?

So basically trolls won't always fall unconscious instantaneously (worst-case scenario is when their HP get below 10 immediately after opcode #232 triggers, and you need to wait almost a full round before they fall unconscious).

[DavidW]

Pretty much, yes.

[temnix]

Somebody ought to revise this regeneration completely. It is boring.

[Jarno Mikkola]

41 minutes ago, temnix said:

Somebody ought to revise this regeneration completely. It is boring.

No, it's not boring, it's infuriatingly accident prone. What trolls should be is just very hard to kill without fire and acid or magic,  such that their regen is actually the thing preventing them from being dead, not resurrecting a new creature everytime one fails to eliminate one in a said perioid. So no minhp1 items, but damage resistance and regen that keeps them alive, while they have acid and fire resistance that take them from hard to kill, to easy™.

Example, say a giant troll has 100 hitpoints, and 6 hit points per round regen and say 50% normal damage resistances, no more no less. Except that the acid/fire resistances are -50%. Some trolls of course have different resistances depending on the kind, so snow trolls have 100% resistance of cold and so on...

Edited August 28, 2020 by Jarno Mikkola

[DavidW]

8 minutes ago, Jarno Mikkola said:

No, it's not boring, it's infuriatingly accident prone. What trolls should be is just very hard to kill without fire and acid or magic,  such that their regen is actually the thing preventing them from being dead, not resurrecting a new creature everytime one fails to eliminate one in a sqaid perioid. So no minhp1 items, but damage resistance and regen that keeps them alive, while they have acid and fire resistance that take them from hard to kill, to easy™.

Example, say a giant troll has 100 hitpoints, and 6 hit points per round regen and say 50% normal damage resistances, no more no less. Except that the acid/fire resistances are -50%. Some trolls of course have different resistances depending on the kind, so snow trolls have 100% resistance of cold and so on...

SCS does something a bit similar. Fire/acid damage turns off their regeneration for a round.

[Jarno Mikkola]

5 minutes ago, DavidW said:

SCS does something a bit similar. Fire/acid damage turns off their regeneration for a round.

But I bet that won't effect the switched creature that doesn't have the minhp1 item. Meaning that their regen pops them up with full hitpoint total, again even if their were "killed" with fireballs. Which is infact the cheese factor here.

[DavidW]

You'd lose the bet - there's no 'switched creature' in EE any more.